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post #601 of 1310 Old 10-16-2011, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post

7.1 Mbps (probably decimal )

Realistically somewhere above 6 Mbps.

Then you may not be getting the 1080p encoding. They need to test your connection to their servers as being something like 140% of the average speed of the encoding--it has to be faster than the speed of the encoding to stay ahead of it, keeping a buffer full in case the speed should dip below the encoding speed for a while. If their 1080p encoding was something on the order of 5.1 Mbps, then the player would have to see at least 7.2 Mbps available bandwidth on your connection (Netflix has stated an 8 Mpbs requirement for 1080p).

It's sad that no known player other than the PS3 will tell you what encoding you're playing (the Xbox does have a scrub bar that you can bring up with a 3 bar meter and the letters "HD"). The Roku has a debug mode that used to at least tell you what bandwidth it detected when you started it but it doesn't work in the Roku 2 Netflix player (still works in Amazon).

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post #602 of 1310 Old 10-16-2011, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Then you may not be getting the 1080p encoding. They need to test your connection to their servers as being something like 140% of the average speed of the encoding--it has to be faster than the speed of the encoding to stay ahead of it, keeping a buffer full in case the speed should dip below the encoding speed for a while. If their 1080p encoding was something on the order of 5.1 Mbps, then the player would have to see at least 7.2 Mbps available bandwidth on your connection (Netflix has stated an 8 Mpbs requirement for 1080p).
.

I am sorry - but that is a myth that has been perpetuated based on one blog for many years. My connection was around 4 - 4.5Mbps for a long time and I had no problem getting the 720P HD streams on my BD390.

With the adaptive streaming it should adjust depending on the available bandwidth. As you can see from the Tomato streams it is downloading in in the 6 Mbps and then throttling back as needed. In fact with adaptive streaming they would be crazy if they kept 40% headroom requirement. I have no problem getting a VUDU HDX 1080P 5.1 stream - it would be kind of surprising if Netflix needed significantly higher bandwidth for their 1080P 5.1 streams.

Where is a (recent) Netflix statement saying you need 8Mbps for 1080P?

I am pretty sure when I see 5.2 Mbps 10 minute average downloads from the ROKU 2 I am getting 1080P/5.1 - but as you say there is no way to know for sure.....
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post #603 of 1310 Old 10-16-2011, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post

I am sorry - but that is a myth that has been perpetuated based on one blog for many years. My connection was around 4 - 4.5Mbps for a long time and I had no problem getting the 720P HD streams on my BD390.

With the adaptive streaming it should adjust depending on the available bandwidth. As you can see from the Tomato streams it is downloading in in the 6 Mbps and then throttling back as needed.

Where is a (recent) Netflix statement saying you need 8Mbps for 1080P?

I am pretty sure when I see 5.2 Mbps 10 minute average downloads from the ROKU 2 I am getting 1080P/5.1 - but as you say there is no way to know for sure.....

It still needs headroom to maintain a buffer, and it needs to stay decently far ahead to insulate itself from the affects of fluctuation. The adaptive bit rate tech does not change that, it just minimizes the penalty of falling behind. Believe what you want, but I know people with 5 Mbps service who can only get the lower 2600 Kbps 720p stream, no matter what. Netflix has essentially repeated that much more recently than the 3 y/o "Encoding for streaming" blog entry in tweets on their Netflixhelps Twitter account about a year ago (see this). Adaptive bit rate was definitely in use in many players back then and was always part of the installed PS3 player, the first to have access to 1080p encodings.

The Netflix player on the original Roku seemed to employ a strategy of filling its buffer to a particular level by bringing data down as fast as possible and then playing purely from the buffer for a while (about 30 seconds):


Most of those peaks are above 12 Mbps or greater; one of them is 18 Mbps (my guess is that with less available bandwidth the peaks would have been lower and fatter). Roku 2's Netflix player now reads from the net much more evenly and constantly; Roku 2's Amazon player still works like before.

If you have a PS3 or can borrow one, hook it up to your system and play an HD stream on Netflix, pressing the SEL button to get the little status display. If it hits and stays at "X-High/HD" then you're getting the 1080p encoding.

I've tweeted the following to Netflixhelps:

@Netflixhelps An old blog entry said that 40% headroom was required to get a given stream encoding; still true with adaptive bit rate?

If I get an answer, I'll post it.

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post #604 of 1310 Old 10-16-2011, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Believe what you want, but I know people with 5 Mbps service who can only get the lower 2600 Kbps 720p stream, no matter what. .

All I can report is my experience - earlier when I had around 5 Mpbs DSL (which measured at at 4 - 4.5 mbps) I had no problem getting my BD390 to say it was getting an HD stream - it's user interface shows the 4 dots and HD. With a 40% headroom from 3.6 Mbps I should not have been getting this.

As I said in my edited post above 'In fact with adaptive streaming they would be crazy if they kept 40% headroom requirement. I have no problem getting a VUDU HDX 1080P 5.1 stream - it would be kind of surprising if Netflix needed significantly higher bandwidth for their 1080P 5.1 streams'

I have just finished watching a recent Top Gear - on my BD 390 10 minutes average was around 4.9 Mbps - I switched to ROKU 2 XS it was more like 5.4 Mbps.

Maybe at this point I should just watch TV (both looked pretty good) although I still think the BD 390 looks better overall (color, smoothness etc) - even it if doesn't have all the detail of the ROKU 2.
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post #605 of 1310 Old 10-16-2011, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Then you may not be getting the 1080p encoding. They need to test your connection to their servers as being something like 140% of the average speed of the encoding--it has to be faster than the speed of the encoding to stay ahead of it, keeping a buffer full in case the speed should dip below the encoding speed for a while. If their 1080p encoding was something on the order of 5.1 Mbps, then the player would have to see at least 7.2 Mbps available bandwidth on your connection (Netflix has stated an 8 Mpbs requirement for 1080p).

When I had DSL 6Mbps service I would flip between X-High and High on the PS3. It would top out at around 5.2Mbps.
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post #606 of 1310 Old 10-16-2011, 07:08 AM
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Do the Roku 2's use IR for their remotes or are they bluetooth or wifi?
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post #607 of 1310 Old 10-16-2011, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

All I can report is my experience - earlier when I had around 5 Mpbs DSL (which measured at at 4 - 4.5 mbps) I had no problem getting my BD390 to say it was getting an HD stream - it's user interface shows the 4 dots and HD. With a 40% headroom from 3.6 Mbps I should not have been getting this.

There are two 720p encodes, one at 2.6 Mbps (now 2.35, but probably not then); 140% of 2.6 is 3.64, so 4 Mbps service is sufficient to get that lower HD level.
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I have just finished watching a recent Top Gear - on my BD 390 10 minutes average was around 4.9 Mbps - I switched to ROKU 2 XS it was more like 5.4 Mbps.

It's quite possible that you're getting 1080p some of the time. The "flat-top" curves that you've posted shows that it's reading as much as it can get all of the time, which suggests to me that, during that period, it's never managing to fill its buffer and get a moment to rest. If it can't get enough bandwidth to stay ahead of demand it's doomed to fall behind, but given adaptive bit rate, before that happens it will switch to the lower bit rate encoding. If it has more bandwidth than it needs for that it'll get "too far ahead" and switch back up. That'd give you bandwidth consumption between what's required for 720p and what's required for 1080p. It would also mean that it doesn't strictly require that 40% headroom to play an encoding, though it may need that to sustain it.

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post #608 of 1310 Old 10-16-2011, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by hellerbrewing View Post

Do the Roku 2's use IR for their remotes or are they bluetooth or wifi?

Both. The XS comes with this fancy motion-sensitive BT remote that you can use to play games (probably just "Angry Birds" right now). The other two come with an IR remote, but you can buy the BT motion-sensitive one as an option.

Though I got the BT remote with my XS, I had programmed my Harmony One (IR only) for the Roku HD that I'd had briefly back in March and that definition works fine with the XS.

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post #609 of 1310 Old 10-16-2011, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Then you may not be getting the 1080p encoding. They need to test your connection to their servers as being something like 140% of the average speed of the encoding--it has to be faster than the speed of the encoding to stay ahead of it, keeping a buffer full in case the speed should dip below the encoding speed for a while. If their 1080p encoding was something on the order of 5.1 Mbps, then the player would have to see at least 7.2 Mbps available bandwidth on your connection (Netflix has stated an 8 Mpbs requirement for 1080p).

It's sad that no known player other than the PS3 will tell you what encoding you're playing (the Xbox does have a scrub bar that you can bring up with a 3 bar meter and the letters "HD"). The Roku has a debug mode that used to at least tell you what bandwidth it detected when you started it but it doesn't work in the Roku 2 Netflix player (still works in Amazon).

Mike,

Isn't the current working assumption that if we see X-High HD displayed on the PS3 then we are receiving a 1080p stream? I think so far we have only one bitrate for 1080p right?

fwiw, I have a 7mbps cable modem and I seem to always get X-high HD whenever a movie is offered in HD (even when other users in my house are using the network moderately).

So it would appear NF 1080p streams fit over 7mbps internet links.
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post #610 of 1310 Old 10-16-2011, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Both. The XS comes with this fancy motion-sensitive BT remote that you can use to play games (probably just "Angry Birds" right now). The other two come with an IR remote, but you can buy the BT motion-sensitive one as an option.

Though I got the BT remote with my XS, I had programmed my Harmony One (IR only) for the Roku HD that I'd had briefly back in March and that definition works fine with the XS.

Thanks for the info, I was wondering if it would work with my harmony.
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post #611 of 1310 Old 10-17-2011, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

It's quite possible that you're getting 1080p some of the time. The "flat-top" curves that you've posted shows that it's reading as much as it can get all of the time, which suggests to me that, during that period, it's never managing to fill its buffer and get a moment to rest. If it can't get enough bandwidth to stay ahead of demand it's doomed to fall behind, but given adaptive bit rate, before that happens it will switch to the lower bit rate encoding. If it has more bandwidth than it needs for that it'll get "too far ahead" and switch back up. That'd give you bandwidth consumption between what's required for 720p and what's required for 1080p. It would also mean that it doesn't strictly require that 40% headroom to play an encoding, though it may need that to sustain it.

Here is a different theory - shoot me down if makes no sense (but with facts please )

Maybe the Netflix servers have added more outgoing bandwidth recently and so a 10 minute average may not be a good measure. On my slower connection I see a flat line as buffer fills up - your faster connection fills the buffer faster.

I say this because a couple of tests show if you test over a longer period the bandwidth looks much closer to the Netflix stated streaming rates of 'Our highest quality files are 4800 kbps (for 1080p HD video) and 384 kbps audio (for 5.1 audio)' and 3.8Mbps rate for stereo HD 720P on a BD390.
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post #612 of 1310 Old 10-17-2011, 09:30 PM
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Here is a different theory - shoot me down if makes no sense (but with facts please )

Maybe the Netflix servers have added more outgoing bandwidth recently and so a 10 minute average may not be a good measure. On my slower connection I see a flat line as buffer fills up - your faster connection fills the buffer faster.

I say this because a couple of tests show if you test over a longer period the bandwidth looks much closer to the Netflix stated streaming rates of 'Our highest quality files are 4800 kbps (for 1080p HD video) and 384 kbps audio (for 5.1 audio)' and 3.8Mbps rate for stereo HD 720P on a BD390.

I'm not following your reasoning, but it doesn't matter.

It would really be nice if you had a PS3, so you could see what encoding(s) you're getting. (It'd be really nice if more devices would include an indicator for that ).

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post #613 of 1310 Old 10-17-2011, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I'm not following your reasoning, but it doesn't matter.

It would really be nice if you had a PS3, so you could see what encoding(s) you're getting. (It'd be really nice if more devices would include an indicator for that ).

The hypothesis - your higher connection fills your buffer quicker - hence over 10 minutes you see a higher average data rate - but over a complete show or movie the average may be lower. My slower connection connection fills the buffer slower - but maybe (or maybe not) over the complete show or movie has the same average.

I agree it would be nice if I had a PS3!

My son (at college) has a 6Mbps DSL connection and his room mate has a PS3. They say it works great for Netflix - I'll see if I can check what encoding they get. Although their connection tests at 5.2 Mbps vs mine which tests at 6.2 Mbps (both on VUDU Speed Test) - so it wouldn't be definitive.

I still feel if I average 5.2 - 5.4 MBps on a Netflix stream and Netlix says that is their highest encoding data rate I may be getting 1080P/5.1 - but agree it would be nice if if more devices had an indicator......
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post #614 of 1310 Old 10-18-2011, 12:58 AM
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I still feel if I average 5.2 - 5.4 MBps on a Netflix stream and Netlix says that is their highest encoding data rate I may be getting 1080P/5.1 - but agree it would be nice if if more devices had an indicator......

I moved my reply here to the "Netflix streaming quality thread", where this discussion really belongs. People come to this thread for details on the features and capabilities of streaming devices--we're off-topic.

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post #615 of 1310 Old 10-18-2011, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I moved my reply here to the "Netflix streaming quality thread", where this discussion really belongs. People come to this thread for details on the features and capabilities of streaming devices--we're off-topic.


I started this thread Michael, and I don't think this discussion is off topic at all. In fact, your scientific analysis of the average bitrates used by various netflix streaming devices is some of the most important content in the 600+ post discussion imho. Maybe this thread has just gotten too long now and it would be good to start a new one, but I believe any discussion of Netflix performance that is HW/SW related is ultimately related to the topic of "Best Nexflix streaming device", because it provides an understanding of the reasons one device is better than the others, and that's what AV Science is about. Should we close this thread entirely and direct all traffic to the new thread, or do you think it adds value to have them both open? If we keep both open, what sort of discussion belongs in the other thread? Thank you for your valuable contributions.

EDIT: I just checked, and the other thread is actually a lot longer than this one, and older as well. Maybe we should keep this one open then and just link to the other when necessary like you have done above?

Rich
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post #616 of 1310 Old 10-18-2011, 04:43 PM
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This may be a quicker/easier test to see if your device is receiving a 1080p stream. The top line of subtitles on Let the Right One In should be cropped out, rendering it unwatchable. I'm not sure why they even put subtitles up there, especially when all of the bottom-placed subs are within the active picture area.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=526
http://community.us.playstation.com/...art=0&tstart=0
http://www.screened.com/forums/gener...roubles/15594/

Insignia 720p stream / PS3 High stream / PS3 X-High stream


Naturally, this is only useful assuming there isn't a third 720p stream on some device where the subs are cut off or a second 1080p stream on some device where they aren't. From Google searches I see that back in 2009 this was a problem on the lower quality streams too.

DaveFi confirmed in PM that they're cut off on his WD TV Live, so that's... good?
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post #617 of 1310 Old 10-18-2011, 05:16 PM
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DaveFi confirmed in PM that they're cut off on his WD TV Live, so that's... good?

Cool .

But remember--now the subs are cut off in at least one of the 720p encodings and they weren't before.

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post #618 of 1310 Old 10-18-2011, 10:40 PM
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Are you thinking of Ong Bak 2?

Yes.

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post #619 of 1310 Old 10-26-2011, 03:31 PM
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Just FYI, the most recent Netflix software update has fixed the audio issue with the PS3... so now stereo is being output correctly and I can apply processing such as Dolby PLII to matrix sound to the center channel.

As was mentioned, before the update, everything was sent as multi-channel PCM, so no post-processing could be applied to the audio by the AVR.
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post #620 of 1310 Old 10-26-2011, 07:19 PM
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Sounds like TiVo might be stepping up...

http://www.techofthehub.com/2011/10/...g-to-tivo.html

Well, relief is coming! TiVo has acknowledged they are working on implementing a new Netflix client incorporating the new SDK and it will support 1080P video (if you have the bandwidth). Yes, it will be a refreshed Netflix client. As for the details, TiVo is not sharing much more.
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post #621 of 1310 Old 10-27-2011, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

Just FYI, the most recent Netflix software update has fixed the audio issue with the PS3... so now stereo is being output correctly and I can apply processing such as Dolby PLII to matrix sound to the center channel.

As was mentioned, before the update, everything was sent as multi-channel PCM, so no post-processing could be applied to the audio by the AVR.

On a side note, the most recent update (at least the UI I have) now shows TV episodes broken apart by season, which is a welcome relief.
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post #622 of 1310 Old 10-27-2011, 09:00 AM
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On a side note, the most recent update (at least the UI I have) now shows TV episodes broken apart by season, which is a welcome relief.

If you're talking about the PS3, mine doesn't show seasons. If you look at tvandmoviesnow.com, you can see that Netflix's API returns entries for the seasons with links to the same web page, with the tab for that season selected. I personally like the one entry per TV series change.

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post #623 of 1310 Old 10-27-2011, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

If you're talking about the PS3, mine doesn't show seasons. If you look at tvandmoviesnow.com, you can see that Netflix's API returns entries for the seasons with links to the same web page, with the tab for that season selected. I personally like the one entry per TV series change.

Yours doesn't? I don't mean in the cover view on the PS3. If you pull up (for example), Breaking Bad, you'll then see Season 1, Season 2, and Season 3 (similar to how the Netflix site looks now).

I believe before, it would just be one long list of everything. I also believe there was an issue (IIRC) where a series had more than 100 episodes, you couldn't select the ones over that. I can't remember for sure, but I seem to remember that being posted here and I checked The Twilight Zone (183 episodes) and couldn't select anything but eps 1-100. I may be completely wrong there. Memory sucks.
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post #624 of 1310 Old 10-27-2011, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

If you're talking about the PS3, mine doesn't show seasons. If you look at tvandmoviesnow.com, you can see that Netflix's API returns entries for the seasons with links to the same web page, with the tab for that season selected. I personally like the one entry per TV series change.

The Oct 18 update added the ''by season'' tab to the Netflix app. If your app didn't get zoomed in (as mine did) you see it when selecting "'More episodes". If your app is zoomed in, you won't see that tab, the screen's so up close, it displays the episode column only.
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post #625 of 1310 Old 10-27-2011, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mproper View Post

Yours doesn't? I don't mean in the cover view on the PS3. If you pull up (for example), Breaking Bad, you'll then see Season 1, Season 2, and Season 3 (similar to how the Netflix site looks now).

I just tried it and yes it does! It used to put them all in one long list, labelled "Sx:Ey" where "x" was the season number and "y" was the episode number. They must have added that in this last version that "fixed" the 5.1 sound. It is cool.
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I believe before, it would just be one long list of everything. I also believe there was an issue (IIRC) where a series had more than 100 episodes, you couldn't select the ones over that. I can't remember for sure, but I seem to remember that being posted here and I checked The Twilight Zone (183 episodes) and couldn't select anything but eps 1-100. I may be completely wrong there. Memory sucks.

There was/kinda-still-is a 100 episode limit on TiVo--they came up with some complicated scheme to compensate. I just looked and the interface that Netflix codenamed "Special" (the one my PS3 started with and is still on my BD player) does not have that limit; neither does the Roku 2 or Xbox (I tested with Law & Order: SVU, which has 272 episodes on Netflix.

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post #626 of 1310 Old 10-27-2011, 01:24 PM
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My Insignia BD player has the "Special" interface running at a lower native resolution and it has a 100 episode "limit" but it works the way I believe you're alluding to with the Tivo.
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post #627 of 1310 Old 10-28-2011, 01:35 PM
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The new GoogleTV 2.0 update is looking pretty good. It remains to be seen whether or not it's 1080p Netflix though (probably not). I might return my WD TV Live for the Revue simply because I already have a good media streamer and the Revue with Google App store support looks to have lots of potential.

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post #628 of 1310 Old 10-31-2011, 11:17 AM
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samsung updates their tv's and BD players for 1080p 5.1

http://support-us.samsung.com/cyber/...!1319477350555

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post #629 of 1310 Old 10-31-2011, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Aero 1 View Post

samsung updates their tv's and BD players for 1080p 5.1

Sweet! (Except in that they're that Webkit/HTML5 Netflix GUI variation now on the PS3 that nobody much cares for. Of course, it only sucks in comparison to the original Webkit/HTML5 GUI for the PS3, codenamed "Special").

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post #630 of 1310 Old 11-02-2011, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aero 1 View Post

samsung updates their tv's and BD players for 1080p 5.1

http://support-us.samsung.com/cyber/...!1319477350555

I thought so as well. It turns out, the update is only for their 2011 Smart TVs. LG 2011 Smart TVs have also been updated. No word yet if it's coming to Samsung Blu-ray players or home theater systems.
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