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Big Lebowski's Avatar Big Lebowski 10:09 AM 05-20-2014
Actually it was the clip "Example Short 23.976 Clear". That's the only 24p clip available. If I'm following that link you gave it tells me this clip is no longer available. I live in Europe so maybe that is explanation for that.

Do you have any idea why certain titles are not shown in HD on PC? I cannot even manually force them over 1750kbps on my PC but they play fine on my TV in Super HD resolution.

michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 10:16 AM 05-20-2014
Some titles are only standard definition in PC Netflix players. They used to be marked "Available in HD on Your TV" on their website pages as opposed to simply "Available in HD" (recently there is no information about HD at all on those pages, probably a bug). It's presumably a content provider restriction.
Big Lebowski's Avatar Big Lebowski 10:22 AM 05-20-2014
Really? I recently spent couple of hours chatting with Netflix support and they did not know this. They kept telling me the source is always the same no matter if it is a PC or TV or dedicated player. I even gave them examples of titles with this issue and they kept telling me it is caused by bad quality internet connection and I should call my ISP to have them fix it, even I told them it always happens with the same titles and that I can even play two Super HD titles at the same time without any problems. It is just that there is a huge amount of titles that aren't available in HD on PC.
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 10:32 AM 05-20-2014
It seems to be a policy of specific studios. Search this subforum for a thread with "available" in the title; it's a discussion of that.
Big Lebowski's Avatar Big Lebowski 10:55 AM 05-20-2014
Thanks. It was interesting reading. I can't stop wondering why they keep bugging us with things like these.

Am I right assuming WDTV Live Gen3 is treated like TV's so that HD versions are available?

Anyway I was planning to use PC Netflix only to check what frame rate each title is I plan to watch on my WDTV but as some of the titles only apper in SD on my PC, can I trust frame rate information is still correct for both? I saw a lot of titles only SD reporting frame rate 23.976 so I assume it might be correct.

Other question that has been puzzling me. How does players like PS3 output clips that are encoded 25p? Do they just output everything at 60Hz?
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 12:38 PM 05-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post

Am I right assuming WDTV Live Gen3 is treated like TV's so that HD versions are available?

Yes. By "TV" they mean anything other than a PC.
Quote:
...can I trust frame rate information is still correct for both?

Yes. It's all the same video; PC players just aren't allowed to use the HD encodes.
Quote:
How does players like PS3 output clips that are encoded 25p? Do they just output everything at 60Hz?

Yes--PS3s can only output video at 60 Hz. 24p is what most of the sources that Netflix gets are encoded at; it's the easiest rate for them to encode. Also, if your equipment can accept it then it's the best thing to send it, if it was filmed in 24p.
reddice's Avatar reddice 04:03 PM 05-20-2014
Don't forget tablets. Even they can't play HD from the likes of Fox, Sony, Paramount (movies only). Disney/ABC content lets you play HD but restricts you to 720p on other devices.
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 04:33 PM 05-20-2014
Maybe it's any readily programmable device (of course, that should exclude Rokus, but it doesn't). It's an ignorant fear that people will use some program to record their high value content in it's best form rolleyes.gif.
Big Lebowski's Avatar Big Lebowski 06:09 AM 05-23-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Yes. By "TV" they mean anything other than a PC.
Yes. It's all the same video; PC players just aren't allowed to use the HD encodes.

That was a good info, thanks.
Quote:
Yes--PS3s can only output video at 60 Hz. 24p is what most of the sources that Netflix gets are encoded at; it's the easiest rate for them to encode. Also, if your equipment can accept it then it's the best thing to send it, if it was filmed in 24p.

My equipment can accept 24p (I play blu-ray's @24p) and actually I have only calibrated my projector for 24p and 50p signal and that's why I was looking for a Netflix player capable of outputting those frame rates.

I've been checking Netflix encoding frame rates over here and it seems there are a lot of material encoded 25p (not a typo) maybe as much as half. The rest are 23.976 but I actually found one that was even 24.000.
When I play content from Netflix I check the encoding and based on that I select my WDTV output setting either 1080/24p or 1080/50p. I haven't tested yet how it looks like if I output 25p material at 24p. I guess WDTV live doesn't do any slow down automatically to play video smoothly in that case?

I have selected color output to YCbCr 8-bit. Does anyone know is it 4:2:2 or 4:4:4? I guess 12-bit option available for some frame rates is for deep color which I never use with my other gear..


Out of curiosity, does Netflix players without 24p capability (like PS3) output even 25p encodes at 60Hz?
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 05:04 PM 05-23-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post

I've been checking Netflix encoding frame rates over here and it seems there are a lot of material encoded 25p (not a typo) maybe as much as half. The rest are 23.976 but I actually found one that was even 24.000.

British television (Doctor Who, MI-5, etc) is pretty much always 25p; some old shot-to-videotape television is 30p. The occasional odd title will be shot-24p-encoded-30p with horrible judder (Hugo is one example).

How do you discern a difference between 23.976 and 24p? I use CTRL-ALT-D in a PC player to see the rate by looking at the "frames rendered/dropped" display, but it says 24 for 23.976.
Quote:
Out of curiosity, does Netflix players without 24p capability (like PS3) output even 25p encodes at 60Hz?

Yes; since most devices can only output 60p they have to convert anything given them to that.
Big Lebowski's Avatar Big Lebowski 04:34 AM 05-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

How do you discern a difference between 23.976 and 24p? I use CTRL-ALT-D in a PC player to see the rate by looking at the "frames rendered/dropped" display, but it says 24 for 23.976.

I guess you mean CRTL+ALT+SHIFT+D because in my case key combination without SHIFT does nothing? By using mentioned 4 key combination on my PC (Win 8.1 + IE11 HTML5) I get frame rate information telling 23.976, 25.000 or 24.000. Mostly what I have tried so far have been either 23.976 or 25.000 and only one with even 24.000 frame rate (El Secreto de Sus Ojos/The Secret in Their Eyes). See attached screenshots parts from the information field.

fr23.jpg 14k .jpg file

fr24.jpg 14k .jpg file

fr25.jpg 14k .jpg file

Quote:
Yes; since most devices can only output 60p they have to convert anything given them to that.

I'm glad I did not even bother trying my PS3 with Netflix.


So far WDTV Live SMP has been working quite well with Netflix. No stuttering or break up during playback as long as I have first checked source frame rate and adjusted WDTV output according to that.

Only problems so far have been that when I turn off WDTV fully by pressing power button for 5 seconds it will reset display output settings. Obviously it has something to do with start up sequence of my gear as it seems to revert to 720p if I first power up my AV-receiver and projector and last WDTV. Last night I first powered on WDTV then few seconds later AV-receiver and few seconds later projector which resulted 1080i output. In all cases I had previously adjusted output to 1080/24p.

Another problem from the beginning was that I was not able to connect Netflix at all. It gave me some error message about problem connecting and gave me option to retry or exit. Retry always failed. I checked my network settings and they were right and also I was able to connect to other services like Youtube and menu network test said everything is ok. I did some googling and found suggestion to try changing DNS in WDTV live to Google DNS and it worked. I'm puzzled why that was needed as I never had any issues in my network before with DNS pointing to my router. I have used it for years succesfully with several different computers with different O/S, severeal smartphones, my TV with build in Netflix client etc...
Any idea what gives?

Otherwise I find it nice that I can assign remote buttons to open programs like Netflix directly (I assigned 1-button to open Netflix). Menu navigation is a bit slow due to delay after pressing button but it is similar to blu-ray players I have. Netflix program starts quite fast.

Image quality seems pretty nice. It is really hard to tell if it does Super HD but I think I've seen it getting gradually better during first moments after starting a movie. I can see that it always start with low 240/288 and gradually in few seconds go up to 1080p just like it does on my TV's build in Netflix client. Certainly quality is not blu-ray equalent but still quite nice and obviously better than in DVD.

Remote controller is not bad and has nice soft touch plastic back side.
Attached: fr25.jpg (14.4 KB) 
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 09:34 AM 05-24-2014
Ah--the exact framerate is information that you see in the HTML5 player in IE11 under Windows 8 (the only way to get that version of the player). There's twice as much stuff in that player's debug screen than on any other PC player; the least information is given by the Win8 Netflix app. I'll have to remember that that's there.

I don't have to plug Google DNS into my TV Live to get Netflix to work; I don't know what's up with that. I use one of the DNS spoofing services to access Netflix's catalogs in other regions and change the DNS addresses in my router; it works with TV Live.
toke's Avatar toke 07:58 AM 06-20-2014
Netflix's support claims that their app for ChromeCast support 23.976Hz and Google's support's "specialist for ChromeCast" claimed that CC's hdmi-output also supports 23.976Hz.
I'm in a bit of disbelief, because of all complaints all over the net.
Can anybody confirm these allegations true or false?

(Posted also here: *Official* Google Chromecast owners thread )
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 03:55 PM 06-26-2014
I just posted about Roku 3's new super-fast Netflix start-up here in the Roku 3 thread. This would enhance its bid for "best possible Netflix device" . If it had the stream info display it'd be just about perfect.
fattybob's Avatar fattybob 08:38 AM 07-07-2014
Quote: Originally Posted by michaeltscott

I'm kind of blown away by how close this 5.1 Mbps Netflix 1080p comes to BD quality. BD is sharper, but not overwhelmingly so in the shots that he posts. For instance, compare (from Outbreak): http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/5...tbreak03bd.png

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8778/outbreak03nf.png Remarkably close.


You haven't seen that thread? I'm surprised....

With those images, as you pointed out the BD is sharper and has more detail (like in his cheeks it's particularly noticeable). Still, it's interesting how well Netflix holds up, at least to me.

Not BD quality of course....but for $8/month and I can be watching that quality in about 5 seconds (vs. ~$16 to buy a disc or at a minimum, 2 days wait to add it to my queue and wait for the disc to ship and arrive).

Technology is great. And to think we came from no streaming to that in a few short years. I am excited to see where streaming is at a couple of years from now, and what quality companies like Vudu are sending.

Even if you're not happy with streaming now (and I understand why), I don't see why anyone wants it to die when the potential is there and given how much the quality has (and can) improve. It's really the dream...and I do think we'll get there eventually.


very well said...
tubetwister's Avatar tubetwister 01:21 AM 07-18-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post
Actually it was the clip "Example Short 23.976 Clear". That's the only 24p clip available. If I'm following that link you gave it tells me this clip is no longer available. I live in Europe so maybe that is explanation for that.



Do you have any idea why certain titles are not shown in HD on PC? I cannot even manually force them over 1750kbps on my PC but they play fine on my TV in Super HD resolution.


re tubetwister

Not all HD titles are encoded for HD on PC .....only *some HD titles *

PC are the red headed stepchild for copyrighted HD video streaming due to limed DRM and HDCP protections .

You should be able to get 2350 - 3000kbs on win 7x > PC ( *on some encoded videos * )I've done it many times but beyond that nada my preferred devices here for Netflix are 1080p Roku and PS3

This web page will have all the links you want including a working link for Example Short 23.976 Clear

.ofc one can always search the link descriptions on Netflix search to play any equivalent supported Netflix channels for *their device * or ' smart TV '


Netflix only supports 1080p HD or super HD on windows 8.1 PC with IE 11 Browser only .

beyond that you will need a compatible device such as a Roku streamer ip enabled TV , ATV /Wifi or Ethernet ip BD player or PS 3 etc.

Netflix 4K UHD (H.265 HEVC) will be on *some * embedded smart TV apps only .

Win 7x and below are limited to ~ 720p or less due to the W7 and below Silver light player limitations .
tubetwister's Avatar tubetwister 01:57 AM 07-18-2014
Quote: Originally Posted by michaeltscott

I'm kind of blown away by how close this 5.1 Mbps Netflix 1080p comes to BD quality. BD is sharper, but not overwhelmingly so in the shots that he posts. For instance, compare (from Outbreak): http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/5...tbreak03bd.png

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8778/outbreak03nf.png Remarkably close.

Re tubetwister

BD has a real world ~ 40Mbps video bit rate & data transfer rate of ~ 54Mbps... potential well beyond @ ~ (8 x ) of Netflix super HD video bit rate & data transfer rate of 4300Kbps and 5800Kbps potential ,or 4.5Mbps and 6.0Mbps with audio added in .


.Netlix 1080p/Super HD looks very good though surprisingly so at that low of a bit rate You can still see plenty of noise and artifact now and then so it's not quite BD quality by a long shot but pretty darn good none the less and real good for the money I'm a satisfied subscriber .
reddice's Avatar reddice 10:18 AM 07-18-2014
I agree there Super HD 5800 kbps and 4300 kbps streams look great even there regular 1080p 3850 kbps streams look great. Quality however suffers big time when it drops down to there crappy 720p 3000 kbps encodes which then I can see blocks in the background and don't get me started when it drops down to there crappy 480p 1750 kbps and 1050 kbps encodes.
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 01:09 PM 07-18-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
BD has a real world ~ 40Mbps video bit rate & data transfer rate of ~ 54Mbps... potential well beyond @ ~ (8 x ) of Netflix super HD video bit rate & data transfer rate of 4300Kbps and 5800Kbps potential ,or 4.5Mbps and 6.0Mbps with audio added in .

(Source: ). BDs aren't nearly always encoded at bit rates of >= 30 Mbps. There are a surprising number of BDs encoded at relatively low bit rates, even some visually stunning titles like these:

  • Superman Returns, 14.82 Mbps
  • The Chronicles of Riddick, 14.01 Mbps
  • Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, 13.79 Mbps
  • Batman Begins, 13.7 Mbps
  • Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines, 13.52 Mbps
  • 2001: A Space Odyssey, 13.39 Mbps
  • Happy Feet, 13.07 Mbps
  • Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, 12.87 Mbps

(Source: Blu-rayStats.com Technical Stats). Comparing frame to frame, Netflix's best HD does surprisingly well against BD, but there are additional artifacts which can only be seen in moving video. Still, it's pretty good. If you want the very best, you're going to have to watch on disc (for however long they continue to print them ).
tubetwister's Avatar tubetwister 01:53 PM 07-18-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
(Source: ). BDs aren't nearly always encoded at bit rates of >= 30 Mbps. There are a surprising number of BDs encoded at relatively low bit rates, even some visually stunning titles like these:

  • Superman Returns, 14.82 Mbps
  • The Chronicles of Riddick, 14.01 Mbps
  • Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, 13.79 Mbps
  • Batman Begins, 13.7 Mbps
  • Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines, 13.52 Mbps
  • 2001: A Space Odyssey, 13.39 Mbps
  • Happy Feet, 13.07 Mbps
  • Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, 12.87 Mbps

(Source: Blu-rayStats.com Technical Stats). Comparing frame to frame, Netflix's best HD does surprisingly well against BD, but there are additional artifacts which can only be seen in moving video. Still, it's pretty good. If you want the very best, you're going to have to watch on disc (for however long they continue to print them ).
Ofc average sustained video bit rate /data transfer are often much lower than the 40/54 mbps potential
on average even on BD encoded that allow it depending on the content (scene) being displayed at any given time
In any event even the lowest results listed above are slightly over twice that of Netflix super HD .
I think it would be safe to assume that unlike hires audio playback twice as good is better in this case no? .

I agree Netflix HD is very good especially when you factor in cost it's a very good value IMO. I watch Netflix much more frequently than BD because of that (real world costs and convenience ) so I think we can find some common ground here .
Big Lebowski's Avatar Big Lebowski 12:46 PM 08-14-2014
Anyone installed 2.02.32 firmware yet? I just installed it and now Netflix video information claims it is only 1080SD. It used to say 1080HD with previous firmware. It shows that information by pressing options button during playback. What the heck that means, I have never seen any device running at 1080SD...?
andyross63's Avatar andyross63 02:47 PM 08-14-2014
I've seen the 1080SD for the past few weeks. The firmware doesn't have much to do with that. The WDTV is a WebKit device and sort-of downloads much of itself when it connects to Netflix.
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 03:08 PM 08-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyross63 View Post
I've seen the 1080SD for the past few weeks. The firmware doesn't have much to do with that. The WDTV is a WebKit device and sort-of downloads much of itself when it connects to Netflix.

I don't know that it can be called a "Webkit device"; it runs the old common Netflix UI which is Webkit based.

That little stream info overlay is undocumented debug code; now and then it has a bug. Since it's not officially exposed to customers, fixing it has zero priority. It probably has to annoy one of the developers badly enough to spends some time on it.

The TV Live used to be my favorite Netflix streaming device because it had that info overlay and none of my others except the PS3 did (and the PS3 draws way too much power for me to use it just for streaming), but these days my favorite is TiVo Roamio, which has that overlay and the new UI. Given that, I hadn't touched it in a while. That 2.02.32 update is pretty frickin' extensive (see release notes here). I'm surprised it doesn't include an update to the new Netflix UI.
reddice's Avatar reddice 03:29 PM 08-14-2014
I remember a year or so ago the PS3 stream info overlay use to say 1080 SD for a while before it was fixed.
Big Lebowski's Avatar Big Lebowski 04:01 PM 08-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyross63 View Post
I've seen the 1080SD for the past few weeks. The firmware doesn't have much to do with that. The WDTV is a WebKit device and sort-of downloads much of itself when it connects to Netflix.
What firmware version you have?
Yesterday when I still had old 2.01.86 firmware it said 1080hd.
Today with 2.02.32 it always says 1080sd no matter what I try. I have powered it off several times and even reset default settings. Strange coincidence if new firmware didn't cause that.

Anyone have this new WDTV firmware and access to Netflix 24p demo with bitrate info? I cannot try it myself since it is not available here.
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 04:21 PM 08-14-2014
It's not any big deal; when it says "1080 SD" it's displaying either the 4800- or 5800 Kpbs 1080p encode (they eliminated the 3850 Kbps one). You can confirm that by viewing either "Example Short 23.976" or "El Fuente: 60 MP10".

I've been playing with the new WD TV Live update and cannot get Miracast to work between it and my Nexus 7, though I can get it to connect to my Nexus 7 via WiFi Direct. When I ask the Nexus to "Cast Screen" it just says that no screens are nearby, though I have Miracast enabled on the TV Live. I also can't figure out how to use the new grid view. Whatever; I don't use the thing anyway.
Big Lebowski's Avatar Big Lebowski 04:50 PM 08-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
It's not any big deal; when it says "1080 SD" it's displaying either the 4800- or 5800 Kpbs 1080p encode (they eliminated the 3850 Kbps one).
You actually tested that with 2.02.32 fw?

Quote:
You can confirm that by viewing either "Example Short 23.976" or "El Fuente: 60 MP10".
Unfortunately neither is available here.

Quote:
I also can't figure out how to use the new grid view. Whatever; I don't use the thing anyway.
Same here, it seemed strange and lacking many things available in the old style view so I went back to that.
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 05:06 PM 08-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post
You actually tested that with 2.02.32 fw?

Yes, I did, with "El Fuente". You'll note my discussion of the new features in that same post. No such thing as "1080 SD", anyway--1080 res is HD. Where are you that those clips are not available?
mdavej's Avatar mdavej 08:17 PM 08-14-2014
If Michael isn't stating it clearly enough, 1080SD is Sony's abbreviation for 1080p Super HD, not Standard Definition. That would be an impossibility. Yes, it's a nonsensical and confusing way to do it, but that's Sony for you. It's as if they're extraterrestrials, unfamiliar with human culture and terminology. "SD, sure we can use that. It couldn't possibly already be the universally accepted term for the exact opposite of what we mean."

They also insist on telling you Internet Content is Ready rather than just playing it like everyone else. They definitely have interesting ways of doing things. If they made cars, when you step on the gas it wouldn't move but would instead inform you, "ready to accelerate".

My favorite Sony-ism of all is their aspect ratio setting. You get 2 options - original and fixed. Which one do you think would show an SD DVD in its "original" 4:3 aspect rather than stretched full screen? Original, right? Wrong. It's the exact opposite of what every sentient being on the planet would have guessed.
Apostate's Avatar Apostate 09:02 PM 08-14-2014
@mdavej

That's a good one. Sony must speak (often nonsensical) Japanese English. You made me laugh with original vs fixed example. I wasted some of my precious youth trying figure out why my 4:3 DVDs were stretched out when I set it correctly to "Original" aspect ratio.
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