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post #1441 of 1482 Old 09-13-2014, 09:02 PM
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There's tolerable start times and intolerable ones. 30 seconds is on the edge; my 2013 Panasonic DMP-BDT220 takes a full minute to start Netflix and is bog slow in response to commands once it's started. The Roku 3's 2-seconds-or-less-to-precisely-where-I-exited Netflix start-up is breathtaking--it's like a magic trick .

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post #1442 of 1482 Old 09-14-2014, 06:49 AM
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^ Hey, 30 seconds can be an eternity.

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post #1443 of 1482 Old 09-14-2014, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
There's tolerable start times and intolerable ones. 30 seconds is on the edge; my 2013 Panasonic DMP-BDT220 takes a full minute to start Netflix and is bog slow in response to commands once it's started. The Roku 3's 2-seconds-or-less-to-precisely-where-I-exited Netflix start-up is breathtaking--it's like a magic trick .
The one problem I have with the Roku's is they scale everything to 1080p and don't show you what the actual streaming resolution is. With my TV, I just hit the info button if I notice a change in quality.

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^ Hey, 30 seconds can be an eternity.

As long as it doesn't take longer for me to heat up my cup of tea in the microwave, I'm good to go.


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post #1444 of 1482 Old 09-14-2014, 10:23 AM
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If you can still get one the SONY Google TV box is the best in terms of quality and usability.
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post #1445 of 1482 Old 09-15-2014, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
Im using a Sony BDP S3100. Netflix works great over the wireless and the PQ is absolutely outstanding on my Samsung 51F5300 plasma. Some reviews complain about load times but I dont see any problems, it works great. Its capable of 480i to 1080p and 24p content.

I paid $45 shipped for this unit (fac refurb, looks brand new), it was a steal.
I agree. I also have a few $40-ish 3100's that work fine. But they won't stream 24p. They will only play discs at 24p. Not that it makes any noticeable difference.


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post #1446 of 1482 Old 09-15-2014, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
I agree. I also have a few $40-ish 3100's that work fine. But they won't stream 24p. They will only play discs at 24p. Not that it makes any noticeable difference.

Some people are particularly sensitive to 2:3 pulldown judder and even slight amounts bug them. I'm not one of them, but when I have a television that can accept and properly display 24p, I want to use devices which can output 24p video sources (like the great majority of streaming video) as 24p.

My WD TV Live and Panasonic DMP-BDT220 can output 24p from streaming video services. For the BDT220 (2012 model) it has to be turned on every time you start a service like Netflix or VUDU, which is an annoyance. I wonder if Panasonic changed that in subsequent model years.

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post #1447 of 1482 Old 09-15-2014, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Some people are particularly sensitive to 2:3 pulldown judder and even slight amounts bug them. I'm not one of them, but when I have a television that can accept and properly display 24p, I want to use devices which can output 24p video sources (like the great majority of streaming video) as 24p.

My WD TV Live and Panasonic DMP-BDT220 can output 24p from streaming video services. For the BDT220 (2012 model) it has to be turned on every time you start a service like Netflix or VUDU, which is an annoyance. I wonder if Panasonic changed that in subsequent model years.
It's one of the reasons why I like streaming with my TV. In most cases, it's always best to have the TV do the processing. I haven't noticed any judder issues on my S60.

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post #1448 of 1482 Old 09-15-2014, 10:26 PM
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My Sony LED and Samsung plasma do a good job wirth 24P I just leave the Sony on Cine Motion Auto and it senses it and does fine I don't know what the Sammy PDP does but it works fine .

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post #1449 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 09:13 AM
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Dumb question, but how can you guys tell you're getting 24p, watch for judder in a panning scene and see if it's even or uneven? How can you perceive the difference between 40 milliseconds between frames and 17 milliseconds. Can you also perceive the 60Hz filcker of a light bulb? Can you communicate with dolphins too?


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post #1450 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
Dumb question, but how can you guys tell you're getting 24p, watch for judder in a panning scene and see if it's even or uneven? How can you perceive the difference between 40 milliseconds between frames and 17 milliseconds. Can you also perceive the 60Hz filcker of a light bulb? Can you communicate with dolphins too?

I don't worry about it myself . I just leave the Sony Cine motion on auto like they suggest .I don't remember if the Sammy PDP has any settings like that or not they look OK to me on movies that's all I know .I don't watch movies on the other sets . I don't recall any special settings other than film or movie modes on them that may or may not involve some pulldown or 24P enhancements. Not much luck talking to dolphins last time I went to Sea World either

OTOH I've never spent much time thinking about it so there may be some valid discussion to be had there maybe a test video to test 24p film cadence or whatever they call it . AFAIK some sources and or sets may resolve these things better than others .

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post #1451 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 10:01 AM
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Now that the discussion has me curious I'll have to check my other sets for whatever related settings they may have .

Can PS3 and Roku 1 and 2 (2013 models ) stream 24P on Netflix and or Amazon Prime and if so do they auto sense it like Sony TV Cine motion auto ? What about PS3 on BD/DVD playback any special settings ?

What about a windows PC set to 1920x1080p using Flash or Silverlight or J.W.P. for streaming video and VLC and or WMP for DVD playback .

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post #1452 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Some people are particularly sensitive to 2:3 pulldown judder and even slight amounts bug them. I'm not one of them, but when I have a television that can accept and properly display 24p, I want to use devices which can output 24p video sources (like the great majority of streaming video) as 24p.

My WD TV Live and Panasonic DMP-BDT220 can output 24p from streaming video services. For the BDT220 (2012 model) it has to be turned on every time you start a service like Netflix or VUDU, which is an annoyance. I wonder if Panasonic changed that in subsequent model years.
In the microchip age you don't need to do 2:3 pulldown. The technique is calculate how many microseconds to show the current frame before you flip the frame buffer to the next (of course taking into account if something happens if you need to drop a frame). The display uses the current frame buffer.

But I suspect the chipsets still support 2:3 pulldown in case requested.
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post #1453 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
Dumb question, but how can you guys tell you're getting 24p, watch for judder in a panning scene and see if it's even or uneven? How can you perceive the difference between 40 milliseconds between frames and 17 milliseconds. Can you also perceive the 60Hz filcker of a light bulb? Can you communicate with dolphins too?
The difference is determined by which device is doing the (2:3 pull down) processing. The player, or the TV. With the TV streaming and doing the processing it offers a slight edge over my Roku 2 which only outputs 1080p/60. However, on my BD player, I can choose the 24p output setting, which again allows the TV to do the processing. I find that most content looks smoother and less grainy then when set to 60. As far as judder is concerned, the difference is nominal regardless of the output setting and can only be seen when credits are scrolling.

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post #1454 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
The difference is determined by which device is doing the (2:3 pull down) processing. The player, or the TV. With the TV streaming and doing the processing it offers a slight edge over my Roku 2 which only outputs 1080p/60. However, on my BD player, I can choose the 24p output setting, which again allows the TV to do the processing. I find that most content looks smoother and less grainy then when set to 60. As far as judder is concerned, the difference is nominal regardless of the output setting and can only be seen when credits are scrolling.

Ian
Interesting it seems that the PS3 is less grainy on Netflix than my Rokus on Netflix . I wonder if the PS3 auto switches switches to 24P like their TV's do with Cine motion auto on ?

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post #1455 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Now that the discussion has me curious I'll have to check my other sets for whatever related settings they may have .

Can PS3 and Roku 1 and 2 (2013 models ) stream 24P on Netflix and or Amazon Prime and if so do they auto sense it like Sony TV Cine motion auto ? What about PS3 on BD/DVD playback any special settings ?

What about a windows PC set to 1920x1080p using Flash or Silverlight or J.W.P. for streaming video and VLC and or WMP for DVD playback .
Every video card I've had has a fixed frame rate. If there's a setting to make it switch on the fly, I'd like to know how to do it too.

I've read that HTML5 Netflix on Win 8.1 is indeed 24p. Silverlight is not, plus it's limited to 720p.

Haven't used VLC or WMP lately, but Pot Player gives me the option to set whatever frame rate I want.

I think we've already established PS3 and Roku 1 and 2 don't stream 24p.

I'm not following the pulldown discussion. Aren't most TV's 120Hz+ these days, meaning essentially no pulldown (5:5)? Why would there be any pulldown going on for 24p unless you have a really old TV? So if Netflix sends 24p, then a 60p player is going to do 2:3 pulldown regardless. Your 120Hz TV simply doubles every frame at that point. So it's not simply a matter of choosing which device does the pull down, it's choosing whether any pull down is done at all.

The only time a TV's cinemotion circuits kick in are when the source frame rate is not an even multiple of the display refresh rate. Today, that would really only happen on an old 60Hz display or with PAL material. Or am I missing something?


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post #1456 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 01:09 PM
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I've read that HTML5 Netflix on Win 8.1 is indeed 24p. Silverlight is not, plus it's limited to 720p.

By which you mean it gets your video card to output a 24p signal for a 24p source? How in hell can it do that? The source stream itself is 24p for the great majority of titles, as provided to every device. (There are some 30p streams, being mostly old television, and most British TV is 25p). The question is how it emerges from the devices as a signal into your television or AVR (my AVR will automatically convert 24p into 60p for output to my television since my current television can't accept 24p).

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post #1457 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Interesting it seems that the PS3 is less grainy on Netflix than my Rokus on Netflix . I wonder if the PS3 auto switches switches to 24P like their TV's do with Cine motion auto on ?

There is a great deal of variation between devices in terms of rendering video output. I bought Prometheus from VUDU because I was anxious to see it (they had it for purchase a while before it was out on disc). Before watching it the first time, I downloaded it to the PS3 to make sure that I wasn't affected by available bandwidth fluctuations (it was a Friday night). I noticed that there was a quite a bit of banding and someone online told me that he wasn't seeing any such when played on the device that he was using it. I then tried playing it on every VUDU playing device that I owned: in addition to PS3, Xbox 360, Roku 2 XS (it was pre Roku 3), Panasonic DMP-BDT220, WD TV Live and Sony BDP-S390. They all performed a bit different from each other but the BDT220 had hands down the cleanest picture with the fewest perceptible digital artifacts. I'd use it a lot more if it weren't such a dog running the Netflix UI.

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post #1458 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 01:27 PM
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We have had this discussion many times before.

Most of the Netflix players (Roku 1, 2 & 3, Apple TV, Chromecast, Fire TV etc) will unfortunately only output P60 which means you have to rely on them to do the P24 to P60 conversion (which they mostly do OK). Better would be a device that can output P24 from P24 Netflix sources (a few Blu-Ray players, WD players and some Tivo's I think). For those whose TVs can accept P24 and display at a multiple of P24 (96, 120, 240 Hz) this will almost always be the best option. No need to do any pull down just repeat frames.
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post #1459 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Interesting it seems that the PS3 is less grainy on Netflix than my Rokus on Netflix . I wonder if the PS3 auto switches switches to 24P like their TV's do with Cine motion auto on ?
Bump up the sharpness on your TV. My devices on my switch have it at +15 but my Roku 3 on its own HDMI 2 port I have the sharpness set to +20.
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post #1460 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
Every video card I've had has a fixed frame rate. If there's a setting to make it switch on the fly, I'd like to know how to do it too.

I've read that HTML5 Netflix on Win 8.1 is indeed 24p. Silverlight is not, plus it's limited to 720p.

Haven't used VLC or WMP lately, but Pot Player gives me the option to set whatever frame rate I want.

I think we've already established PS3 and Roku 1 and 2 don't stream 24p.

I'm not following the pulldown discussion. Aren't most TV's 120Hz+ these days, meaning essentially no pulldown (5:5)? Why would there be any pulldown going on for 24p unless you have a really old TV? So if Netflix sends 24p, then a 60p player is going to do 2:3 pulldown regardless. Your 120Hz TV simply doubles every frame at that point. So it's not simply a matter of choosing which device does the pull down, it's choosing whether any pull down is done at all.

The only time a TV's cinemotion circuits kick in are when the source frame rate is not an even multiple of the display refresh rate. Today, that would really only happen on an old 60Hz display or with PAL material. Or am I missing something?
All plasma TV's are 60HZ, which has always been the NTSC standard frame rate. What you are referring to is motion interpolation, which is 120Hz/240HZ. It's a fairly common option on LCD's, designed to reduce motion blur, but makes film look like video, aka the soap opera effect. On some plasmas you have anti judder software like the cinema smooth option and the like. They usually offer a 96hz cadence. That being said, not all devices are created equal and some do a better job processing better then others. In my particular case, my TV offers better quality when converting the frame rate from 24 to 60HZ then most players I have used. Therefore I prefer using devices that can output 24p native when watching most film content.

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post #1461 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 01:57 PM
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All TV's are 60HZ, which has always been the NTSC standard frame rate. What you are referring to is frame interpolation, which is 120Hz/240HZ. It's a fairly common option on LCD's, designed to reduce motion blur, but makes film look like video, aka the soap opera effect. On some plasmas you have anti judder software like the cinema smooth option and the like. They usually offer a 96hz cadence. That being said, not all devices are created equal and some do a better job processing better then others. In my particular case, my TV offers better quality when converting the frame rate from 24 to 60HZ then most players I have used. Therefore I prefer using devices that can output 24p native when watching most film content.

Ian
That's not correct. A 120Hz or 240Hz display, as most TVs are today, refresh the screen that many times per second. If a 120Hz TV gets a 60Hz NTSC signal, it will display the same frame twice, then the next one twice, and so on. Given a 24p signal, it will display each frame five times. A 120Hz display will never pull 24p down to 60. You prefer 24p because you get nice even 5:5 pulldown, on what I assume is a 120Hz TV.


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post #1462 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
By which you mean it gets your video card to output a 24p signal for a 24p source? How in hell can it do that?
Great question. I suppose I could set my video card to 24Hz if I wanted, but everything except Netflix would look like total crap and probably cause seizures.

I guess my main point is apparently nobody I've seen post so far is actually getting 24p Netflix, yet it's a feature nobody can live without. I just want to know how to tell if I'm getting it. I know all my stand-alone streamers can't do it. But I don't know if the Netflix on my smart TV is doing it (2013 Vizio).


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post #1463 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
I guess my main point is apparently nobody I've seen post so far is actually getting 24p Netflix, yet it's a feature nobody can live without. I just want to know how to tell if I'm getting it. I know all my stand-alone streamers can't do it. But I don't know if the Netflix on my smart TV is doing it (2013 Vizio).

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but you can find out what framerate a given Netflix title is encoded at by playing it in one of the web site players, Silverlight in any browers, HTML5 in IE11 on Win8. Before blowing the player up fullscreen, left-click the video to give the player keyboard focus and type CTRL-SHIFT-ALT-D to bring up the diagnostic info overlay. There's a lot more information on that display in the HTML5 player, including a line marked "Framerate"; in the Silverlight player you can read it from the line labelled "Video Frames (rendered/dropped).

Try a couple of the example clips, which have known framerates. "Example Short 23.976" will show 23.976 in HTML5, as will most titles, and 24 in Silverlight; I don't think that it can say 23.976 in that field. "El Fuente: 60 MP10" will show 30 fps and "Example Short 11 min 25 fps Remote" will show 25 fps in the diags. Also try random recent movies and TV, UK TV and some old US TV (even a little of that is encoded at 24 fps).

When it was first introduced the movie Hugo was inexplicably encoded in 30 fps from a 24 fps source; the judder was horrible, particularly evident in the fantastic opening tracking shot. Apparently they re-encoded it in 24 fps.

Netflix and the other streaming services encode at the framerate of the sources they receive because it's the easiest thing to do and all video playing equipment can convert to the framerate requirements of the display on output. Some devices can render a 24p signal from 24p sources and send that to the display (or whatever the downstream HDMI sink is); my WD TV Live, Panasonic DMP-BDT220, TiVo Roamio and TiVo Premiere all can do this. None of my other streaming devices can.

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post #1464 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
A 120Hz display will never pull 24p down to 60.

Sadly, I don't think that all TVs with refresh rates which are an even multiple of 24 will properly handle 24p input, though many will.

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post #1465 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
That's not correct. A 120Hz or 240Hz display, as most TVs are today, refresh the screen that many times per second. If a 120Hz TV gets a 60Hz NTSC signal, it will display the same frame twice, then the next one twice, and so on. Given a 24p signal, it will display each frame five times. A 120Hz display will never pull 24p down to 60. You prefer 24p because you get nice even 5:5 pulldown, on what I assume is a 120Hz TV.
You are talking about LCD's which create additional frames. From CNET:
Quote:
Refresh rate is how often the TV shows a new image. Anything above 60Hz is entirely the invention of the TV itself. All modern video is either 24 frames per second (movies and most TV shows), 60 fields per second (1080i video), or 60 frames per second (720p video). Higher refresh rates are used to increase apparent motion resolution with LCDs.
My S60 is a plasma display and can only produce a 60HZ frame rate. The reason why it looks smoother when displaying 24p sources is because my TV does a better job pulling down the additional frames.

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PS: I was referring to PDP's not LCD's and edited my previous post to clarify.

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Last edited by mailiang; 09-16-2014 at 05:00 PM. Reason: Typo
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post #1466 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Some people are particularly sensitive to 2:3 pulldown judder and even slight amounts bug them. I'm not one of them, but when I have a television that can accept and properly display 24p, I want to use devices which can output 24p video sources (like the great majority of streaming video) as 24p.

My WD TV Live and Panasonic DMP-BDT220 can output 24p from streaming video services. For the BDT220 (2012 model) it has to be turned on every time you start a service like Netflix or VUDU, which is an annoyance. I wonder if Panasonic changed that in subsequent model years.
I just read review on amazon that said the 220 and it's generation were the last ones to have "VOD 24p."

However, it seems without a computer one cannot tell what frame rate the source is, but I gather that a very high percentage (90%) is 24p.

Once you are running netflix with the 220 can you easily switch between 24p and 60p?
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post #1467 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post
Once you are running netflix with the 220 can you easily switch between 24p and 60p?

It's fairly easy. You hit a key to bring up a menu, select a sub menu and an item from that. You also have to have 24p enabled in the global settings, which gets your 24p output from discs automatically. Annoying that it doesn't assume that, having chosen 24p output from disc, you would want it from VOD as well and that you have to turn it on every time that you run a VOD service app.

I'm very surprised that they didn't keep that option in subsequent model years.

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post #1468 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
You are talking about LCD's which create additional frames. From CNET:

From "What is 1080p24?" a CNET article from July last year:

Quote:
With the increasing popularity of greater-than-60Hz displays, it's possible to do something about this jerkiness. One of the first mainstream displays to offer a way to get rid of the 2:3 was Pioneer's Kuro plasma, which could "refresh" at 72Hz, allowing for a 3:3 cadence (for more on how plasmas refresh, check out What is 600Hz ). The result was much smoother, more film-like and natural motion. I, and many others, loved this.

Since then, more and more TVs have offered this feature. Some 120Hz and 240Hz displays offer this mode. Both 120 and 240 are "magic" numbers, in that they're multiples of 24 and 60. The 72Hz mode on the Pioneer (and 96Hz modes on some other plasmas) are great for film, but 60fps content like sports or reality TV won't look right.

As I stated before, not all televisions with a multiple-of-24 refresh rate will handle 24p input by outputting even pulldown, but most released in the past few years will. The Vizio 2014 P-Series, one of which I have on order, claims to handle 24p and 48p input especially well:

Quote:
Pure Cinema Engine.
The VIZIO P-Series blows away traditional 3:2 pull-down with a Pure Cinema Engine that adjusts its frame rate to show films as the creators intended, in their native 24 and 48 frames per second, with a fidelity that will thrill the cinephile in you.

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post #1469 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 05:24 PM
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Bump up the sharpness on your TV. My devices on my switch have it at +15 but my Roku 3 on its own HDMI 2 port I have the sharpness set to +20.
Thanks ....I'll try that on the Sony LCD . Netflix graininess is not as apparent on Sammy the Plasma.

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post #1470 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mdavej
Every video card I've had has a fixed frame rate. If there's a setting to make it switch on the fly, I'd like to know how to do it too.
No way I know to switch it on the fly one could easily make a custom resolution to try using Catalyst or whatever they have. ofc it would be user selectable at the GPU/IGPU or in windows and not automatic .


VLC might have some settings also but I would imagine one would still have to create a custom rez at the video card, IGPU or in windows video settings .


Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej
I'm not following the pulldown discussion. Aren't most TV's 120Hz+ these days, meaning essentially no pulldown (5:5)? Why would there be any pulldown going on for 24p unless you have a really old TV? So if Netflix sends 24p, then a 60p player is going to do 2:3 pulldown regardless. Your 120Hz TV simply doubles every frame at that point. So it's not simply a matter of choosing which device does the pull down, it's choosing whether any pull down is done at all.

That would seem to answer somequestions I had . It seems I don't have a device beyond the PC with a custom resolution enabled that can output 24p I'm not likely to use that way anyway hence no dog in this fight especially since I use the Roku's and PS3 to stream movies most of the time unless they are from an alternative source and not available on those devices or on their You Tube channels and Dish DVR is 1080i . Plasma and PS3 seem to work fine so I never screw with them .


Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej
The only time a TV's cinemotion circuits kick in are when the source frame rate is not an even multiple of the display refresh rate. Today, that would really only happen on an old 60Hz display or with PAL material. Or am I missing something?
AFAIK Sony still has cine motion option auto/off or a 1,2,/ off option on all the sets for some reason but with no 24p sources here it's probably nothing I need to be concerned with anyway.



Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided
Most of the Netflix players (Roku 1, 2 & 3, Apple TV, Chrome Cast, Fire TV etc) will unfortunately only output P60 which means you have to rely on them to do the P24 to P60 conversion
Thanks that answers most of my questions .

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Last edited by tubetwister; 09-16-2014 at 06:11 PM.
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