Best possible Netflix streaming device - Page 50 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1471 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 08:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mailiang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Springsteen Country
Posts: 6,736
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
From "What is 1080p24?" a CNET article from July last year:
True, but he was referring to 120 hz plus frame rates which are only produced by LCD's. Like I mentioned earlier, some current plasmas offer a 96 hz cadence to reduce judder, but all of them offer high refresh rates and great motion handling with out all that extra processing. Except for what I perceive as nominal judder, I just don't see what all the fuss is about. As you can tell, I wouldn't trade my plasma for even the best LCD's, but that's just me.

Ian

The best way to succeed in life is to act on the advice you give to others


Last edited by mailiang; 09-16-2014 at 09:36 PM.
mailiang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1472 of 1482 Old 09-16-2014, 10:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
undecided's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,494
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
You are talking about LCD's which create additional frames. From CNET:
My S60 is a plasma display and can only produce a 60HZ frame rate. The reason why it looks smoother when displaying 24p sources is because my TV does a better job pulling down the additional frames.
Your TV may well be doing a better job than external P60 devices - however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Like I mentioned earlier, some current plasmas offer a 96 hz cadence to reduce judder, but all of them offer high refresh rates and great motion handling with out all that extra processing. Except for what I perceive as nominal judder, I just don't see what all the fuss is about. As you can tell, I wouldn't trade my plasma for even the best LCD's, but that's just me.

Ian
Yes Plasmas generally handle motion much better than LCDs (even the silly 240/480 Hz ones which are trying to match Plasma motion handling) - however many Plasmas as you say support 96 Hz - my Panasonic does.

In this case 24P does look better when displayed at 96 Hz (4:4). I don't think you have this set up - but if you did try the infamous Example Short - many of whose scenes are designed to highlight exactly this. I have an old LG BD390 that outputs 720P24 from Netflix 24P sources - and you can see the difference when displayed at 96 Hz. Likewise Blu-Ray 1080P24 looks great when displayed at 96Hz. That said I still use my Apple TV for Netflix as it handles the pulldown pretty well and supports 1080P and 5.1.

In some future timeline I will have a Netflix device that supports 1080P24 YCbCr out and 5.1 audio - I just haven't found one that meets my other streaming needs....
undecided is offline  
post #1473 of 1482 Old 09-17-2014, 07:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mdavej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,807
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Liked: 352
Thanks for all the explanations, but I just can't wrap my head around this. It makes no logical sense to me that a 120Hz or 240Hz TV would ever do a 2:3 pulldown of 24p to 60 then back up to the native refresh of the display. Doesn't 24x5=120? And I can't understand how a 60Hz plasma can do anything at 96Hz. I'll just accept that all this is way over my head and move on. I can't see any difference anyway.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mdavej is offline  
post #1474 of 1482 Old 09-17-2014, 08:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mailiang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Springsteen Country
Posts: 6,736
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post
In this case 24P does look better when displayed at 96 Hz (4:4). I don't think you have this set up - but if you did try the infamous Example Short - many of whose scenes are designed to highlight exactly this. I have an old LG BD390 that outputs 720P24 from Netflix 24P sources - and you can see the difference when displayed at 96 Hz. Likewise Blu-Ray 1080P24 looks great when displayed at 96Hz. That said I still use my Apple TV for Netflix as it handles the pulldown pretty well and supports 1080P and 5.1.
Although my S60 doesn't have an 96 hz option, I have seen BD's at 60hz and 96hz with and with out cinema smooth implemented (weak setting) on an ST60. The differences seems rather subtle to me. Also, as I posted earlier, the only time I experience noticeable judder is on certain movies when the credits are scrolling. I also believe these features have a lot to do with personal tastes. From David Katzmaier, CNET ST60 review:
Quote:
Both the 60Hz and the 96Hz mode handled 1080p/24 sources properly in my test. As on the VT50, I did detect slight flicker in 96Hz in bright areas, for example the clouds over Brooklyn in "I Am Legend" (24:49). I did notice some artifacts from 1080p/24 sources in 60Hz mode. On the "Digital Video Essentials" test Blu-ray, we noticed shifting lines and minor instability in the downtown Philadelphia buildings during an upward-facing pan. I didn't see any similar issues during other program material, but assume they might crop up. It's also worth noting that the TV scored higher in motion resolution (1,200 lines versus 700) when I engaged 96Hz mode. In any case, I still prefer the flicker-free 60Hz mode, but it's great to have a choice between 96Hz and 60Hz this year (48Hz, as usual, created unbearable flicker).

As usual, the results of engaging Motion Smoother dejudder processing were objectionable to my eyes, although some viewers might actually want its soap opera effect. Both smoothness and artifacting increased when I moved up in settings from Weak to Mid to Strong.
Ian

The best way to succeed in life is to act on the advice you give to others


Last edited by mailiang; 09-17-2014 at 01:02 PM. Reason: Added CNET referance
mailiang is offline  
post #1475 of 1482 Old 09-17-2014, 11:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 2,935
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 522 Post(s)
Liked: 362
Just to add to the confusion I read that current Sony Cine motion can sense 24p content within 1080i signal and using some of the existing deinterlacing processing it can extrapolate same (or something ) and re build the frames to something like a 24p presentation somehow .

I'm not up to speed on this . I've read something like that couple of times and most recently yesterday except I didn't save the link and IIRC there may have been mention of something like Cine motion sensing film content and doing something automatically for film content when Cine Motion Auto is on .

I've noticed some 1080i Dish content and OTA 1080i has less judder than others when panning it may have something to do with that . I'll have to try and see what is going on if it is film or 24p vs non film or non 24p content .

Quote:
Here is what Sony e support says not real specific ofc :

Cine Motion Provides improved picture movement and reduces picture blur and graininess for film-based content.

CineMotion
Auto 1
Provides smoother picture movement than the original film-based content. Use this setting for standard use.
Auto 2
Provides the original film-based content as is.
Off
Turns off “CineMotion.”

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 09-17-2014 at 12:00 PM.
tubetwister is online now  
post #1476 of 1482 Old 09-17-2014, 12:17 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
michaeltscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 16,847
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
Thanks for all the explanations, but I just can't wrap my head around this. It makes no logical sense to me that a 120Hz or 240Hz TV would ever do a 2:3 pulldown of 24p to 60 then back up to the native refresh of the display.

When the first 120Hz TVs launched they no doubt used off-the-shelf chips which could accept any common format and scale it to 1080p60 and then used custom hardware to convert that to "1080p120" for output (obviously very easy). Chips to take any common format and convert it to multiple other formats no doubt came later.

Mike Scott (XBL: MikeHellion, PSN: MarcHellion)

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
michaeltscott is online now  
post #1477 of 1482 Old 09-17-2014, 12:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Brian Conrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Martinez, CA, USA
Posts: 4,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 118
Video cards can have fixed frame rates but player software can play about any frame rate. How? Just as I said yesterday the video card takes the frame currently available when it needs one from the display buffer. The player software just keeps filling display buffers whether used or not.

I've written two video players over the years for two different devices the NUON DVD/Game system and the Sony PSP for a game that's original videos were only 15 fps. The latter had to be tweaked to 14.93 for the 29.97 frame rate of the PSP or the audio would have gone out of sync. You sync to the audio and drop video frames to keep up as dropped audio would be VERY annoying.
Brian Conrad is offline  
post #1478 of 1482 Old 09-17-2014, 03:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
undecided's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,494
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
It makes no logical sense to me that a 120Hz or 240Hz TV would ever do a 2:3 pulldown of 24p to 60 then back up to the native refresh of the display. Doesn't 24x5=120?
However if the TV is only getting P60 from the Netflix player (Rokus, Apple TV, Fire TV, Chromecast etc) then 2:3 pull has already been done and the TV has no option but to take this and display it at 120 or 240 Hz. This why many people here are looking a player than will output P24 not P60

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
And I can't understand how a 60Hz plasma can do anything at 96Hz.
They are not 60Hz plasmas (google 600hz subfield motion). For P60 (or other 30/60 sources) material they'll display at 60Hz - but many Plasmas can also display frequencies that are multiples of 24 e.g 48Hz (too much flicker for most), 72 Hz and more recently 96 Hz
undecided is offline  
post #1479 of 1482 Old 09-17-2014, 07:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mdavej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,807
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Liked: 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post
However if the TV is only getting P60 from the Netflix player (Rokus, Apple TV, Fire TV, Chromecast etc) then 2:3 pull has already been done and the TV has no option but to take this and display it at 120 or 240 Hz. This why many people here are looking a player than will output P24 not P60
I'm looking for P24 too. I understand that most Netflix streamers have already done the pull down to 60 because that's all they can output. I was questioning the assertion that all displays first pull down to 60 no matter what the source frame rate because that's the NTSC standard. So a 120Hz display, given a P24 source (not a P60 source), would do 2:3 pulldown to 60, then frame double to 120, rather than simply do 5:5 pulldown to begin with. I don't care what old TV's used to do or what 60Hz or 96Hz plasmas do. I'm talking about what a current 120Hz or 240Hz display does with a P24 source. So is this really true, that EVERYTHING is pulled down to 60 first, no matter what? That's what doesn't make any sense to me.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mdavej is offline  
post #1480 of 1482 Old 09-17-2014, 07:17 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
michaeltscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 16,847
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
So a 120Hz display, given a P24 source (not a P60 source), would do 2:3 pulldown to 60, then frame double to 120, rather than simply do 5:5 pulldown to begin with. I don't care what old TV's used to do or what 60Hz or 96Hz plasmas do. I'm talking about what a current 120Hz or 240Hz display does with a P24 source. So is this really true, that EVERYTHING is pulled down to 60 first, no matter what? That's what doesn't make any sense to me.

It is not true. See my post by here. My new TV, whose product overview claims that it handles 24p and 48p especially well, is due here by next Thursday.

Mike Scott (XBL: MikeHellion, PSN: MarcHellion)

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
michaeltscott is online now  
post #1481 of 1482 Old 09-17-2014, 10:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
undecided's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,494
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
I was questioning the assertion that all displays first pull down to 60 no matter what the source frame rate because that's the NTSC standard. So a 120Hz display, given a P24 source (not a P60 source), would do 2:3 pulldown to 60, then frame double to 120, rather than simply do 5:5 pulldown to begin with. I don't care what old TV's used to do or what 60Hz or 96Hz plasmas do. I'm talking about what a current 120Hz or 240Hz display does with a P24 source. So is this really true, that EVERYTHING is pulled down to 60 first, no matter what? That's what doesn't make any sense to me.
Yes - one would hope a recent LCD TV that supports 24P input and 120/240Hz display would not do pull down as part of the processing. The reality seems to be than some handle 24P well some not so well - so your best bet is to check reviews (CNET etc) and the owners threads here. Often you have to turn off the various 'soap opera' video effects as well - but again it seems to vary by TV and manufacturer.

Even some of those that claim to handle 24P correctly don't when tested by some of the review sites - so a little research is your best option here.
undecided is offline  
post #1482 of 1482 Old Yesterday, 08:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mdavej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,807
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Liked: 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post
Yes - one would hope a recent LCD TV that supports 24P input and 120/240Hz display would not do pull down as part of the processing. The reality seems to be than some handle 24P well some not so well - so your best bet is to check reviews (CNET etc) and the owners threads here. Often you have to turn off the various 'soap opera' video effects as well - but again it seems to vary by TV and manufacturer.

Even some of those that claim to handle 24P correctly don't when tested by some of the review sites - so a little research is your best option here.
After reading the reviews, looks like none of my TVs handle P24 properly. This is actually a huge relief since it means I can stop worrying about finding a P24 Netflix player since it wouldn't work anyway. It also explains why I don't see any difference between P24 and P60 sources.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mdavej is offline  
Reply Video Download Services & Hardware

Tags
Samsung Bd D6700 3d Blu Ray Disc Player
Gear in this thread - D6700 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off