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post #1471 of 1496 Old 09-16-2014, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
From "What is 1080p24?" a CNET article from July last year:
True, but he was referring to 120 hz plus frame rates which are only produced by LCD's. Like I mentioned earlier, some current plasmas offer a 96 hz cadence to reduce judder, but all of them offer high refresh rates and great motion handling with out all that extra processing. Except for what I perceive as nominal judder, I just don't see what all the fuss is about. As you can tell, I wouldn't trade my plasma for even the best LCD's, but that's just me.

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post #1472 of 1496 Old 09-16-2014, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
You are talking about LCD's which create additional frames. From CNET:
My S60 is a plasma display and can only produce a 60HZ frame rate. The reason why it looks smoother when displaying 24p sources is because my TV does a better job pulling down the additional frames.
Your TV may well be doing a better job than external P60 devices - however.

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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Like I mentioned earlier, some current plasmas offer a 96 hz cadence to reduce judder, but all of them offer high refresh rates and great motion handling with out all that extra processing. Except for what I perceive as nominal judder, I just don't see what all the fuss is about. As you can tell, I wouldn't trade my plasma for even the best LCD's, but that's just me.

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Yes Plasmas generally handle motion much better than LCDs (even the silly 240/480 Hz ones which are trying to match Plasma motion handling) - however many Plasmas as you say support 96 Hz - my Panasonic does.

In this case 24P does look better when displayed at 96 Hz (4:4). I don't think you have this set up - but if you did try the infamous Example Short - many of whose scenes are designed to highlight exactly this. I have an old LG BD390 that outputs 720P24 from Netflix 24P sources - and you can see the difference when displayed at 96 Hz. Likewise Blu-Ray 1080P24 looks great when displayed at 96Hz. That said I still use my Apple TV for Netflix as it handles the pulldown pretty well and supports 1080P and 5.1.

In some future timeline I will have a Netflix device that supports 1080P24 YCbCr out and 5.1 audio - I just haven't found one that meets my other streaming needs....
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post #1473 of 1496 Old 09-17-2014, 07:46 AM
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Thanks for all the explanations, but I just can't wrap my head around this. It makes no logical sense to me that a 120Hz or 240Hz TV would ever do a 2:3 pulldown of 24p to 60 then back up to the native refresh of the display. Doesn't 24x5=120? And I can't understand how a 60Hz plasma can do anything at 96Hz. I'll just accept that all this is way over my head and move on. I can't see any difference anyway.


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post #1474 of 1496 Old 09-17-2014, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post
In this case 24P does look better when displayed at 96 Hz (4:4). I don't think you have this set up - but if you did try the infamous Example Short - many of whose scenes are designed to highlight exactly this. I have an old LG BD390 that outputs 720P24 from Netflix 24P sources - and you can see the difference when displayed at 96 Hz. Likewise Blu-Ray 1080P24 looks great when displayed at 96Hz. That said I still use my Apple TV for Netflix as it handles the pulldown pretty well and supports 1080P and 5.1.
Although my S60 doesn't have an 96 hz option, I have seen BD's at 60hz and 96hz with and with out cinema smooth implemented (weak setting) on an ST60. The differences seems rather subtle to me. Also, as I posted earlier, the only time I experience noticeable judder is on certain movies when the credits are scrolling. I also believe these features have a lot to do with personal tastes. From David Katzmaier, CNET ST60 review:
Quote:
Both the 60Hz and the 96Hz mode handled 1080p/24 sources properly in my test. As on the VT50, I did detect slight flicker in 96Hz in bright areas, for example the clouds over Brooklyn in "I Am Legend" (24:49). I did notice some artifacts from 1080p/24 sources in 60Hz mode. On the "Digital Video Essentials" test Blu-ray, we noticed shifting lines and minor instability in the downtown Philadelphia buildings during an upward-facing pan. I didn't see any similar issues during other program material, but assume they might crop up. It's also worth noting that the TV scored higher in motion resolution (1,200 lines versus 700) when I engaged 96Hz mode. In any case, I still prefer the flicker-free 60Hz mode, but it's great to have a choice between 96Hz and 60Hz this year (48Hz, as usual, created unbearable flicker).

As usual, the results of engaging Motion Smoother dejudder processing were objectionable to my eyes, although some viewers might actually want its soap opera effect. Both smoothness and artifacting increased when I moved up in settings from Weak to Mid to Strong.
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post #1475 of 1496 Old 09-17-2014, 11:26 AM
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Just to add to the confusion I read that current Sony Cine motion can sense 24p content within 1080i signal and using some of the existing deinterlacing processing it can extrapolate same (or something ) and re build the frames to something like a 24p presentation somehow .

I'm not up to speed on this . I've read something like that couple of times and most recently yesterday except I didn't save the link and IIRC there may have been mention of something like Cine motion sensing film content and doing something automatically for film content when Cine Motion Auto is on .

I've noticed some 1080i Dish content and OTA 1080i has less judder than others when panning it may have something to do with that . I'll have to try and see what is going on if it is film or 24p vs non film or non 24p content .

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Cine Motion Provides improved picture movement and reduces picture blur and graininess for film-based content.

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post #1476 of 1496 Old 09-17-2014, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
Thanks for all the explanations, but I just can't wrap my head around this. It makes no logical sense to me that a 120Hz or 240Hz TV would ever do a 2:3 pulldown of 24p to 60 then back up to the native refresh of the display.

When the first 120Hz TVs launched they no doubt used off-the-shelf chips which could accept any common format and scale it to 1080p60 and then used custom hardware to convert that to "1080p120" for output (obviously very easy). Chips to take any common format and convert it to multiple other formats no doubt came later.

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post #1477 of 1496 Old 09-17-2014, 12:47 PM
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Video cards can have fixed frame rates but player software can play about any frame rate. How? Just as I said yesterday the video card takes the frame currently available when it needs one from the display buffer. The player software just keeps filling display buffers whether used or not.

I've written two video players over the years for two different devices the NUON DVD/Game system and the Sony PSP for a game that's original videos were only 15 fps. The latter had to be tweaked to 14.93 for the 29.97 frame rate of the PSP or the audio would have gone out of sync. You sync to the audio and drop video frames to keep up as dropped audio would be VERY annoying.
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post #1478 of 1496 Old 09-17-2014, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
It makes no logical sense to me that a 120Hz or 240Hz TV would ever do a 2:3 pulldown of 24p to 60 then back up to the native refresh of the display. Doesn't 24x5=120?
However if the TV is only getting P60 from the Netflix player (Rokus, Apple TV, Fire TV, Chromecast etc) then 2:3 pull has already been done and the TV has no option but to take this and display it at 120 or 240 Hz. This why many people here are looking a player than will output P24 not P60

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
And I can't understand how a 60Hz plasma can do anything at 96Hz.
They are not 60Hz plasmas (google 600hz subfield motion). For P60 (or other 30/60 sources) material they'll display at 60Hz - but many Plasmas can also display frequencies that are multiples of 24 e.g 48Hz (too much flicker for most), 72 Hz and more recently 96 Hz
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post #1479 of 1496 Old 09-17-2014, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post
However if the TV is only getting P60 from the Netflix player (Rokus, Apple TV, Fire TV, Chromecast etc) then 2:3 pull has already been done and the TV has no option but to take this and display it at 120 or 240 Hz. This why many people here are looking a player than will output P24 not P60
I'm looking for P24 too. I understand that most Netflix streamers have already done the pull down to 60 because that's all they can output. I was questioning the assertion that all displays first pull down to 60 no matter what the source frame rate because that's the NTSC standard. So a 120Hz display, given a P24 source (not a P60 source), would do 2:3 pulldown to 60, then frame double to 120, rather than simply do 5:5 pulldown to begin with. I don't care what old TV's used to do or what 60Hz or 96Hz plasmas do. I'm talking about what a current 120Hz or 240Hz display does with a P24 source. So is this really true, that EVERYTHING is pulled down to 60 first, no matter what? That's what doesn't make any sense to me.


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post #1480 of 1496 Old 09-17-2014, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
So a 120Hz display, given a P24 source (not a P60 source), would do 2:3 pulldown to 60, then frame double to 120, rather than simply do 5:5 pulldown to begin with. I don't care what old TV's used to do or what 60Hz or 96Hz plasmas do. I'm talking about what a current 120Hz or 240Hz display does with a P24 source. So is this really true, that EVERYTHING is pulled down to 60 first, no matter what? That's what doesn't make any sense to me.

It is not true. See my post by here. My new TV, whose product overview claims that it handles 24p and 48p especially well, is due here by next Thursday.

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post #1481 of 1496 Old 09-17-2014, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
I was questioning the assertion that all displays first pull down to 60 no matter what the source frame rate because that's the NTSC standard. So a 120Hz display, given a P24 source (not a P60 source), would do 2:3 pulldown to 60, then frame double to 120, rather than simply do 5:5 pulldown to begin with. I don't care what old TV's used to do or what 60Hz or 96Hz plasmas do. I'm talking about what a current 120Hz or 240Hz display does with a P24 source. So is this really true, that EVERYTHING is pulled down to 60 first, no matter what? That's what doesn't make any sense to me.
Yes - one would hope a recent LCD TV that supports 24P input and 120/240Hz display would not do pull down as part of the processing. The reality seems to be than some handle 24P well some not so well - so your best bet is to check reviews (CNET etc) and the owners threads here. Often you have to turn off the various 'soap opera' video effects as well - but again it seems to vary by TV and manufacturer.

Even some of those that claim to handle 24P correctly don't when tested by some of the review sites - so a little research is your best option here.
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post #1482 of 1496 Old 09-18-2014, 08:43 AM
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Yes - one would hope a recent LCD TV that supports 24P input and 120/240Hz display would not do pull down as part of the processing. The reality seems to be than some handle 24P well some not so well - so your best bet is to check reviews (CNET etc) and the owners threads here. Often you have to turn off the various 'soap opera' video effects as well - but again it seems to vary by TV and manufacturer.

Even some of those that claim to handle 24P correctly don't when tested by some of the review sites - so a little research is your best option here.
After reading the reviews, looks like none of my TVs handle P24 properly. This is actually a huge relief since it means I can stop worrying about finding a P24 Netflix player since it wouldn't work anyway. It also explains why I don't see any difference between P24 and P60 sources.


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post #1483 of 1496 Old 09-25-2014, 12:49 AM
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Just got my Vizio P552ui-B2 55" P-Series UHDTV. Its Netflix smart app has the new common Netflix UI with the stream info display activated by its INFO remote button. It's Netflix 4K capable (there are a total of 12 "4K UltraHD" titles in the US region library at this writing, including the TV series, Breaking Bad, The Blacklist and House of Cards (4k in season 2 only). The Blacklist in 4K is impressive; the others possibly not worth the massively larger amount of bandwidth (there appear to be 3 4K video encodes, at 8000-, 12000- and 16000 Kbps). The only mark against this television as a streamer is that it's sound output is via ARC or optical S/PDIF, both limited to basic DD, so no DD Plus. The basic DD would seem to be better than a conversion of DD+, with a lot of punch and discrete channel separation.

So far I'm very happy with the TV (just got it today); I'm going to make an appointment with a pro calibrator tomorrow. At 55", it's 9" horizontally bigger than my old TV; strange how quickly I got used to that.

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post #1484 of 1496 Old 09-25-2014, 03:32 AM
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How strange. I was looking at some of that handful of 4k Netflix titles and the list changed positions. I'd been a bit miffed that it appeared 20-some-odd genres down from "My List" and now it appears directly under "Recently Watched", 3rd row down. I'd never noticed that any list changed positions in the past; I wonder that if you use one often enough, it percolates up towards the top?
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post #1485 of 1496 Old 09-25-2014, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Just got my Vizio P552ui-B2 55" P-Series UHDTV. Its Netflix smart app has the new common Netflix UI with the stream info display activated by its INFO remote button. It's Netflix 4K capable (there are a total of 12 "4K UltraHD" titles in the US region library at this writing, including the TV series, Breaking Bad, The Blacklist and House of Cards (4k in season 2 only). The Blacklist in 4K is impressive; the others possibly not worth the massively larger amount of bandwidth (there appear to be 3 4K video encodes, at 8000-, 12000- and 16000 Kbps). The only mark against this television as a streamer is that it's sound output is via ARC or optical S/PDIF, both limited to basic DD, so no DD Plus. The basic DD would seem to be better than a conversion of DD+, with a lot of punch and discrete channel separation.

So far I'm very happy with the TV (just got it today); I'm going to make an appointment with a pro calibrator tomorrow. At 55", it's 9" horizontally bigger than my old TV; strange how quickly I got used to that.

Have you compared 4k verses the same content in 1080p? It would be interesting to see how much difference there is on a 55" screen at normal viewing distances.
Funny, my TV's standard DD optical out seems to sound better then the DD plus I get from my Roku's HDMI.

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post #1486 of 1496 Old 09-25-2014, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
How strange. I was looking at some of that handful of 4k Netflix titles and the list changed positions. I'd been a bit miffed that it appeared 20-some-odd genres down from "My List" and now it appears directly under "Recently Watched", 3rd row down. I'd never noticed that any list changed positions in the past; I wonder that if you use one often enough, it percolates up towards the top?
It would seem that the 4k title row is programmed to relocate to the top when used, just as the My List row does. For those who never use it, My List is located last after all genres. When you initiate a stream from M-L, it moves to the top above Recently Watched.
The other genres remain, more or less, in their usual positions without moving up. Their positions are affected when ''Because you watched...'' rows are inserted between genres. But I haven't paid close enough attention to observe whether specific genres I frequent most, move up in higher positions in the menu.

And speaking of the genre rows...
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post #1487 of 1496 Old 09-25-2014, 02:44 PM
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Have you compared 4k verses the same content in 1080p? It would be interesting to see how much difference there is on a 55" screen at normal viewing distances.

My viewing distance isn't very typical. I use the television as a computer monitor, sitting about 5 feet from it with a wireless keyboard and mouse on a laptop cart; I watch a lot of television from that position. Otherwise I might be a couple of feet further away lying in bed. I cannot do a direct comparison by switching to Netflix on Roku or something because you can't view anything else on the television without exiting Netflix.

Another thing about this television is that I'm finally able to view the 1080p Amazon video encodes. Its Amazon player is very similar to the one on the PS3. It tends to leap to the maximum bit rate for both Amazon and Netflix; it may become my favorite streaming device.

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post #1488 of 1496 Old 09-25-2014, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Another thing about this television is that I'm finally able to view the 1080p Amazon video encodes. Its Amazon player is very similar to the one on the PS3. It tends to leap to the maximum bit rate for both Amazon and Netflix; it may become my favorite streaming device.
Would be interested to hear your thoughts on the Amazon 1080P streams vs the Netflix Ultra-HD (2160P) streams. Both are higher rate bit streams Amazon 1080P at 10 Mbps and Netflix 2160P 15 Mbps - although it doesn't sounds like there any titles you could compare directly on both.

Also how does the TV handle upscaling 1080P content which is what I guess you will mainly be watching.
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post #1489 of 1496 Old 09-25-2014, 07:21 PM
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I wasn't at all impressed with the only Amazon 1080p stream I've viewed so far, being some of episode 1, series 1 of Downton Abbey. The only Netflix 4K that I've been impressed by thus far was The Blacklist, though I haven't check out all of it. I suppose that The Smurfs 2 was fairly impressive, but I couldn't stomach more than the first 5 minutes of it. The other movies they've been able to field in 4K thus far are older: Jerry Maguire, Ghostbusters, Hitch and Philadelphia (at least 3 of the 5 4K movies were good one--not a fan of Philadelphia--too relentlessly depressing--but it was a quality film). The little "Moving Art" clips are pretty, I suppose.

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post #1490 of 1496 Old 09-25-2014, 10:38 PM
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I wasn't at all impressed with the only Amazon 1080p stream I've viewed so far, being some of episode 1, series 1 of Downton Abbey.
Downton Abbey on Amazon Instant seems to be PBS Masterpiece Series branded version

I was never very impressed with the Downton Abbey video quality on PBS. Its a shame we don't get access to the UK original - the PBS version cut content and seems a poor video conversion.

You may want to try some other Amazon 1080P titles.
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post #1491 of 1496 Old 09-25-2014, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post
Downton Abbey on Amazon Instant seems to be PBS Masterpiece Series branded version

I was never very impressed with the Downton Abbey video quality on PBS. Its a shame we don't get access to the UK original - the PBS version cut content and seems a poor video conversion.

You may want to try some other Amazon 1080P titles.

Every episode of Downton Abbey on Amazon is marked as being the original UK version.

I looked at the (incredible) title sequence of HBO's Rome and it looked pretty damn good in 1080p, so it was apparently just the Downton Abbey transfer that failed to impress.

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post #1492 of 1496 Old 09-26-2014, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Every episode of Downton Abbey on Amazon is marked as being the original UK version.

I looked at the (incredible) title sequence of HBO's Rome and it looked pretty damn good in 1080p, so it was apparently just the Downton Abbey transfer that failed to impress.
Interesting I watched the Downtown Abbey Episode 1 intro on Amazon Instant after seeing your first email. I thought it had the PBS Masterpiece intro? I'll check again tonight.

I think you will impressed by most of the other Amazon Instant 1080P material - it certainly looks very good on the FireTV.

Yes I recall the Rome intro from when the series originally aired on HBO. Nice to have the HBO back catalog material on Amazon Instant.
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post #1493 of 1496 Old 09-26-2014, 10:52 AM
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How does Amazon decide whether to send 720p or 1080p?
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post #1494 of 1496 Old 09-26-2014, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post
How does Amazon decide whether to send 720p or 1080p?

If your device is capable of displaying it they'd decide by a bandwidth test or by a some adaptive streaming algorithm. Thus far my television seems to start on a 1080p video encode. For adaptive bit rate, devices will use buffer level; if they can't keep the buffer full of content at the current bit rate/resolution they drop down to sa lower bit rate/resolution video encode until the are keep the bufer full.

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post #1495 of 1496 Old 09-26-2014, 04:53 PM
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Starting about two months ago my Amazon Prime began showing 55Mbps as the internet speed on its two windows. This was at the same time my Netflix started to immediately ramp up to 5800.

So it looks like my Amazon is doing 1080p.

I have FIOS 50M service.

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post #1496 of 1496 Old 09-28-2014, 03:40 PM
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