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Old 04-24-2017, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Just my two cents gentleman, but although 2160p offers more detail, it's negligible unless you have a very large set, or you like sitting very close to your screen. The difference comes down to HDR, which is paramount when it comes to providing a significant improvement in picture quality. It has been proven through countless reviews by professional calibrators, that UHD BD offers the best HDR experiance, even when comparing the best Dolby Vison streams to HDR10 Blu-Ray. Also, as good as 1080p streams have gotten, I have yet to see one that looks better then a top quality, 1080p Blu-Ray, on my Panasonic S60 PDP.

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And considering those logs also show 192kbps audio, I'll stick with discs. That's insanely low.

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Old 04-24-2017, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Just my two cents gentleman, but although 2160p offers more detail, it's negligible unless you have a very large set, or you like sitting very close to your screen. The difference comes down to HDR, which is paramount when it comes to providing a significant improvement in picture quality. It has been proven through countless reviews by professional calibrators, that UHD BD offers the best HDR experiance, even when comparing the best Dolby Vison streams to HDR10 Blu-Ray. Also, as good as 1080p streams have gotten, I have yet to see one that looks better then a top quality, 1080p Blu-Ray, on my Panasonic S60 PDP.

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The question was about Netflix (and other services) using HEVC (or even VP9) for 1080p. Certainly know about UHD Disc but the players are still over priced and I doubt if I'll ever bother with one (unless it's free like my last two BD players were). Having experience in video and even creating and editing 4K I can tell the difference though the upscaling on my 4K set is very good when it comes to 1080p.

HDR is a bit up in the air at the moment since the Dolby Vision vs HDR is causing confusion. The price of HDR sets will need to come down a bit more.

Yes, 192 kbps audio is a bit thin. I always have turn up the audio on Netflix and down on VUDU. And being a musician can hear the difference.
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
The question was about Netflix (and other services) using HEVC (or even VP9) for 1080p. Certainly know about UHD Disc but the players are still over priced and I doubt if I'll ever bother with one (unless it's free like my last two BD players were). Having experience in video and even creating and editing 4K I can tell the difference though the upscaling on my 4K set is very good when it comes to 1080p.

HDR is a bit up in the air at the moment since the Dolby Vision vs HDR is causing confusion. The price of HDR sets will need to come down a bit more.

Yes, 192 kbps audio is a bit thin. I always have turn up the audio on Netflix and down on VUDU. And being a musician can hear the difference.
I'm not saying 4k doesn't offer more detail, that's a fate accompli, but under normal viewing conditions, it has very little impact on over all PQ. According to the ISF, contrast is the number 1 contributor, while resolution finishes last. Hence the addition of HDR. Vudu's Dolby Vison with it's ample bandwidth, has become very competitive when compared to HDR10 BD. My buddy pro calibrator Lee Nielkirk (Review.com) did a comparison and concluded that certain streams offered by Vudu in Dolby Vison actually looked better then UHD BD (Sorry, Digitalfreak) This was probably due the original master's enhancements of Dolby's wider color gamut. Other titles however, did not offer the same results. Since Dolby Vison is coming to BD, we can only hope it will ultimately put an end to the PQ wars.

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Old 04-24-2017, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
I'm not saying 4k doesn't offer more detail, that's a fate accompli, but under normal viewing conditions, it has very little impact on over all PQ. According to the ISF, contrast is the number 1 contributor, while resolution finishes last. Hence the addition of HDR. Vudu's Dolby Vison with it's ample bandwidth, has become very competitive when compared to HDR10 BD. My buddy pro calibrator Lee Nielkirk (Review.com) did a comparison and concluded that certain streams offered by Vudu in Dolby Vison actually looked better then UHD BD (Sorry, Digitalfreak) This was probably due the original master's enhancements of Dolby's wider color gamut. Other titles however, did not offer the same results. Since Dolby Vison is coming to BD, we can only hope it will ultimately put an end to the PQ wars.

Ian
There's more going on with the new codecs than just resolution. But around here we get a white flag waved at some of us if we get too geeky!
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DigitalfreakNYC View Post
4K is different from 1080p. I'm looking for evidence that 1080p is being encoded with HEVC. I'm aware of the various codecs but I don't think there's any truth to anything else you're saying. And, from all opinions I've heard, 4k Netflix is about on par with a Blu-ray. But you're still missing lossless sound. So there's that.

So, yeah, BD's are the best PQ when it comes to both 1080p and 4k.
I was wondering about this with a 1080P Netflix movie I watched recently. The highest encode bitrate was something like 2.5mbps for 1080P. And for the bitrate it looked similar to the 5.8mbps Netflix titles I had watched. So I was thinking they used HEVC.

I never got around to checking it on a non HEVC Device to see what that showed.

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Old 04-24-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
There's more going on with the new codecs than just resolution. But around here we get a white flag waved at some of us if we get too geeky!
What white flag? We love geeks! Obviously the new codecs are more efficient. Garbage in, garbage out. I'm certain they have an impact on Vudu's HDR content.

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Old 04-24-2017, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
I was wondering about this with a 1080P Netflix movie I watched recently. The highest encode bitrate was something like 2.5mbps for 1080P. And for the bitrate it looked similar to the 5.8mbps Netflix titles I had watched. So I was thinking they used HEVC.

I never got around to checking it on a non HEVC Device to see what that showed.

That wouldn't necessarily mean that it's encoded in HEVC; they've been creating custom bit rate ladders per title (per episode of a series) based on an analysis of the video itself. You should check to see what the bit rate shows up as in Edge or the Windows Netflix app. Keep in mind that the bit rates on the embedded player debug display are based on powers of 2; 5800 Kbps will show up as 5.53 Mbps (5,800,000 / 2^20).

What was the movie?
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Old 04-25-2017, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
That wouldn't necessarily mean that it's encoded in HEVC; they've been creating custom bit rate ladders per title (per episode of a series) based on an analysis of the video itself. You should check to see what the bit rate shows up as in Edge or the Windows Netflix app. Keep in mind that the bit rates on the embedded player debug display are based on powers of 2; 5800 Kbps will show up as 5.53 Mbps (5,800,000 / 2^20).

What was the movie?
Lower bitrates are usually HEVC even for 1080p and possibly 720p and even 480p if the device supports HEVC. And even VP9 which they announced using on mobile devices but could be used on devices that haven't licensed HEVC. Otherwise it's h264 with the old ladders. And I wouldn't depend on Netflix to keep doing things the way "they've announced". No company does that.

FYI, when you select a movie on a device there is an exchange as the streaming service determines what you are on, if DRM is supported, what HDMI, display resolution, what codecs are available, etc, etc, etc. I will dig out a log sample from the Shield TV to show the square dance they go through before the movie starts and of course wrap it in a spoiler. Coming soon (because the logs I have on this machine is not the ones I would use).
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Old 04-25-2017, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
Lower bitrates are usually HEVC even for 1080p and possibly 720p and even 480p if the device supports HEVC. And even VP9 which they announced using on mobile devices but could be used on devices that haven't licensed HEVC. Otherwise it's h264 with the old ladders. And I wouldn't depend on Netflix to keep doing things the way "they've announced". No company does that.

House of Cards, S1 E1 has a high bit rate of 1400 Kbps, 1080p (110, 140, 200, 300, 400, 560, 790, 1100, 1400). The debug display (CTRL-SHIFT-ALT-D) says that it's AVC. This is on Windows 10--the app and the web player running in Edge show the same thing. Of course, the debug display could be wrong. The embedded players concur about the bit rate, though their debug displays express 1400 Kbps as 1.34 Mbps (1,400,000 / 2 ^ 20 is 1.335). I don't have anything which immediately falls to hand that I know is absolutely, positively incapable of HEVC decoding; I've got a Roku 3 somewhere but I moved a few months ago and lord only knows what still packed box it's in. Chromecast can't, but it can't be made to display the debug overlay. Xbox 360 cannot, but its restricted to 720p; it is, however, reporting that the 720p encode it's playing is 1100 Kbps. My actively used streamers are Roku Premiere+, Xbox One S (rarely) and TiVo Bolt; all these and the TV's internal app are HEVC capable.

I strongly believe that those bit rates are for AVC.

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Old 04-25-2017, 09:08 PM
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Lightbulb Netflix Debug Display

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
Lower bitrates are usually HEVC even for 1080p and possibly 720p and even 480p if the device supports HEVC. And even VP9 which they announced using on mobile devices but could be used on devices that haven't licensed HEVC. Otherwise it's h264 with the old ladders. And I wouldn't depend on Netflix to keep doing things the way "they've announced". No company does that.

FYI, when you select a movie on a device there is an exchange as the streaming service determines what you are on, if DRM is supported, what HDMI, display resolution, what codecs are available, etc, etc, etc. I will dig out a log sample from the Shield TV to show the square dance they go through before the movie starts and of course wrap it in a spoiler. Coming soon (because the logs I have on this machine is not the ones I would use).
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
House of Cards, S1 E1 has a high bit rate of 1400 Kbps, 1080p (110, 140, 200, 300, 400, 560, 790, 1100, 1400). The debug display (CTRL-SHIFT-ALT-D) says that it's AVC. This is on Windows 10--the app and the web player running in Edge show the same thing. Of course, the debug display could be wrong. The embedded players concur about the bit rate, though their debug displays express 1400 Kbps as 1.34 Mbps (1,400,000 / 2 ^ 20 is 1.335). I don't have anything which immediately falls to hand that I know is absolutely, positively incapable of HEVC decoding; I've got a Roku 3 somewhere but I moved a few months ago and lord only knows what still packed box it's in. Chromecast can't, but it can't be made to display the debug overlay. Xbox 360 cannot, but its restricted to 720p; it is, however, reporting that the 720p encode it's playing is 1100 Kbps. My actively used streamers are Roku Premiere+, Xbox One S (rarely) and TiVo Bolt; all these and the TV's internal app are HEVC capable.

I strongly believe that those bit rates are for AVC.
AVC, HEVC, lower bit rates, higher bitrates, I'm fine with it, as long as it looks good to me.

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Old 04-26-2017, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
House of Cards, S1 E1 has a high bit rate of 1400 Kbps, 1080p (110, 140, 200, 300, 400, 560, 790, 1100, 1400). The debug display (CTRL-SHIFT-ALT-D) says that it's AVC. This is on Windows 10--the app and the web player running in Edge show the same thing. Of course, the debug display could be wrong. The embedded players concur about the bit rate, though their debug displays express 1400 Kbps as 1.34 Mbps (1,400,000 / 2 ^ 20 is 1.335). I don't have anything which immediately falls to hand that I know is absolutely, positively incapable of HEVC decoding; I've got a Roku 3 somewhere but I moved a few months ago and lord only knows what still packed box it's in. Chromecast can't, but it can't be made to display the debug overlay. Xbox 360 cannot, but its restricted to 720p; it is, however, reporting that the 720p encode it's playing is 1100 Kbps. My actively used streamers are Roku Premiere+, Xbox One S (rarely) and TiVo Bolt; all these and the TV's internal app are HEVC capable.

I strongly believe that those bit rates are for AVC.
You can often get the debug listing of what's playing on a browser by selecting what's available for web debugging or even what's been downloaded by "inspect element".

Here's what happens with a Netflix 1080p show being served on an Nvidia Shield TV. Unfortunately I haven't found anything similar for Roku development.
Spoiler!

I rest my case.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
I rest my case.

I never doubted your claim that they're using H.265 on some devices for sub-2160-res encodes now. I was just asserting that not all low bit rate 1080p is due to H.265 encoding.

Can you produce a log like that for House of Cards, Season 1, Episode 1?

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Old 04-27-2017, 10:36 AM
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I never doubted your claim that they're using H.265 on some devices for sub-2160-res encodes now. I was just asserting that not all low bit rate 1080p is due to H.265 encoding.

Can you produce a log like that for House of Cards, Season 1, Episode 1?
That episode is only 1080p. On the Shield TV it is h264 but at 1.34 Mbps on Roku TV can't be and probably h265. There is no debug display for the Shield TV and the logs don't show bitrate.

Here is a Netflix tech blog on their Android debugging:
http://techblog.netflix.com/2015/10/...r-android.html
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
That wouldn't necessarily mean that it's encoded in HEVC; they've been creating custom bit rate ladders per title (per episode of a series) based on an analysis of the video itself. You should check to see what the bit rate shows up as in Edge or the Windows Netflix app. Keep in mind that the bit rates on the embedded player debug display are based on powers of 2; 5800 Kbps will show up as 5.53 Mbps (5,800,000 / 2^20).

What was the movie?
The ARC or ARC or something like that.

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Old 04-27-2017, 06:55 PM
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In terms of the original topic - "Best possible netflix streaming device" this thread has been way off topic for quite a few posts now!!!

Or have we all decided the Nvidia Shield is the best device, and moved on to other topics????
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Old 04-27-2017, 07:10 PM
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Yeah--sorry about the off-topic rat-hole. We should have moved it to the Netflix Streaming Quality thread. In fact, I will move my last three post there now, starting here.

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Old 04-28-2017, 11:01 AM
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In terms of the original topic - "Best possible netflix streaming device" this thread has been way off topic for quite a few posts now!!!

Or have we all decided the Nvidia Shield is the best device, and moved on to other topics????
I have an Nvidia Shield TV, the first model not the new one. It was made to be a gaming console with streaming available because it is based on Android TV. They've had some burps along the way getting things to work right. Just read the Shield TV forum on Nvidia's site. Stuff that is streamed elsewhere using HEVC or VP9 still gets streamed using AVC. In one case I think the contractor who made the player for a streaming service didn't query to see if the device was connected to a TV and service sends their lower bitrate 540p mobile stream instead of the 1080p stream. That's a one line piece of code that can check.

The Shield TV section here is mostly about KODI and NAS on Shield TV.

Personally I usually just watch Netflix using Roku on my 4K Roku TV. The TV has the most to do with PQ quality just as the surround system for sound quality.
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Netflix has become the latest company to stop users of rooted and unlocked Android devices from downloading its app from the Play Store. The video streaming service’s app still works on modified handsets/tablets that already have it installed, but this could eventually change.
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