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post #91 of 181 Old 07-26-2011, 05:41 AM
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Thanks for the feedback. The one ep I watched through PlayOn (because it froze on the PS3) didn't have as much judder. Perhaps something to do with the encode the PS3 gets.

Sure would be nice if Netflix had more options or a comment box on their "report problem" page. Although I assume if they bother, they can tell what device I was watching it on, but I'd really like to describe it via a comment box. Maybe I'll take a picture of the "ghosting" I see and post it here if anyone is interested. I'd take a video of a 5 or 10 second clip, but I figure that's probably illegal or something.
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Originally Posted by theslug View Post

Just tried and it froze during the opening credits, but I was able to skip a few seconds ahead and then it played normally.

Interesting. I FF'd through quite a bit and tried several spots until I gave up and switched to PlayOn for that episode.
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post #92 of 181 Old 07-27-2011, 06:58 AM
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I'm desperately trying to resolve my jitter issue on my Windows 7 64-bit HTPC. I have 3 other devices that don't have a problem: Windows 7 Desktop, Xbox 360, and Seagate Freeagent. Even my HTC Evo plays netflix smooth as butter! Unfortunately my HTPC is my main streaming device. I've researched this issue like crazy with not much success in finding a resolution.

I've tried playing NF on IE, Firefox, and Chrome with Silverlight 4 and 5 beta. The only difference I found between my HTPC and my desktop is the Nvidia driver version (they both have Nvidia 8400GS's in them). So I downgraded the HTPC driver to match up. It did solve one issue, where NF no longer maxed my CPU usage to 100%. Silverlight shows it did/does have gpu acceleration enabled. Now NF uses ~35% CPU. My desktop only uses about ~15%.

I get jitter no matter if I play HD or SD streams on NF. Also, Hulu plus (flash based) is smooth, as well as HD mkv's via XBMC.

As a note, the current Nvidia driver (GeForce 275.33 Driver) made even my desktop jitter, in case anyone runs into that issue.
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post #93 of 181 Old 08-20-2011, 12:55 PM
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Now that Trek is on Amazon Instant Video, I just compared an episode of TNG to the same episode on Netflix, and it's not much better on Amazon. There is a whole lot of noticeable interlacing on the edges of people and objects.
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post #94 of 181 Old 08-20-2011, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theslug View Post

Now that Trek is on Amazon Instant Video, I just compared an episode of TNG to the same episode on Netflix, and it's not much better on Amazon. There is a whole lot of noticeable interlacing on the edges of people and objects.

Haven't sampled TNG yet. VOY's been giving me headaches thus far. Would you mind trying an episode and seeing if the same judder occurs. Try Season 1 ep 16 Meld, or s3's episode 2 Flashback...both feature the sickbay set heavily. The operating area wall jitters each and every time there's a left/right camera pan.
Much appreciated if you can spare the time...

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post #95 of 181 Old 08-20-2011, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westly-C View Post

Haven't sampled TNG yet. VOY's been giving me headaches thus far. Would you mind trying an episode and seeing if the same judder occurs. Try Season 1 ep 16 Meld, or s3's episode 2 Flashback...both feature the sickbay set heavily. The operating area wall jitters each and every time there's a left/right camera pan.
Much appreciated if you can spare the time...

Ok, I just looked at Meld and viewed the scene in Sickbay around the 6:00 minute mark. The effect is noticed when the camera pans down. On Netflix there's the same ghosting/strobing we've seen before. On Amazon it's the same and there's noticeable interlacing. Same with the operating area walls you mentioned around 35:10.

If anything it seems to be worse on Amazon.
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post #96 of 181 Old 08-20-2011, 04:52 PM
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Thanks for checking that out.
I've been wondering if Paramount/CBS supplied Netflix with their encodes?...the "CC" appears in a bottom corner at the start of each episode just as it did on the original broadcasts. I'd doubt that would be included on the dvds.

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post #97 of 181 Old 08-20-2011, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theslug View Post

Now that Trek is on Amazon Instant Video, I just compared an episode of TNG to the same episode on Netflix, and it's not much better on Amazon. There is a whole lot of noticeable interlacing on the edges of people and objects.

Unfortunately, TNG is going to have subpar quality as it was shot on videotape.

A better comparison would be to watch The Original Series and Enterprise. The Original Series was shot on film and was remastered in HD. (the new CGI is cool too....)
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post #98 of 181 Old 08-20-2011, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerOne View Post

Unfortunately, TNG is going to have subpar quality as it was shot on videotape.

Well, specifically...
TNG, VOY & DS9 were all shot on film, which was then transferred to videotape for editing. ILM pioneered the transfer film to tape editing process (I think), starting with TNG, and soon afterwards, all weekly series followed suit, to save money on the time consuming editing stage..

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post #99 of 181 Old 09-03-2011, 03:28 AM
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Just happened to do a generic 'netflix jitter' search for this tonight, as I was wondering... Sure enough, the last few posts to this thread were for the same shows I've been watching. Agreed with Westly-C on the sick bay for VOY. Very distracting. Also noticed the same thing in TNG episodes, as the camera panned across windows in the ready room. Attempts a turning on frame interpolation made little difference. I think some of the original posts have identified the cause. So is it up to us to complain to Netflix?

Ranger One, fortunately, at the time TNG was shot, only the PanaCam would've been considered an option for video recording. And it was wisely passed on, in favor of film. That's good for us. All of that film can be rescanned and whatever effects used either remade or updated all-together

I wish I could say with certainty which episode of SG1 marked their changeover to HD. But it's mid-season, very noticeable and truly unfortunate. Only recently have video cameras caught up to the dynamic range of film. So there's about a decade of tv with highlights that clip to oblivion at 3 stops over exposure

Anyway, Netflix, at least BSG looks good. There's plenty of other material that looks fabulous too. It's just a matter of certain transcodes that look nasty. Maybe they'll do a little housecleaning soon.

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post #100 of 181 Old 09-03-2011, 05:35 AM
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Although TNG/DS9/VOY were shot on film, if I understand right, they were converted to video for all editing and effects. I don't even know if the original film still exists! Plus, you would have to re-edit and recreate all of the effects. That would be $$$$.

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post #101 of 181 Old 09-03-2011, 06:02 AM
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Here is a fairly informed write-up of what it would taje to remaster TNG in HD, and why it is possible.
http://www.dvdtown.com/messageboard/topic/8274/3/0

This guy thinks it would be possible from season 3 onward.
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.ph...65#post3085165

Granted, even when this is done, Netflix would probably still have a jittery encode from the original version.
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post #102 of 181 Old 09-03-2011, 02:18 PM
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I just went through the entire thread and thought I'd share this...
I've been watching Netflix streaming on a "C" series Samsung panel for over a year. There are obviously poorly/incorrectly encoded programs (most Starz content) that exhibit all kinds of strange jitter/frame skips on camera pans.
However, I've just found a new problem....
I have been watching Star Trek and Hawaii 5-0 without any noticeable problems except for an occasional and intermittent drop to SD before returning to HD, almost certainly due to network congestion outside of my LAN. I had skipped watching for a few days while on vacation, and when I returned, both series exhibited random frame dropping/skipping to an extent that I couldn't watch. The only thing that had changed was that my ISP had upped my BW from 5 Mbps to 12 Mbps. I even tried re-watching some episodes that I had watched just a week earlier and they all exhibited the skipping. Then I went to the Netflix streaming quality settings for my account and set the rate to "better quality" (the middle option) and all skipping stopped on the same program material I'd just tested. Setting quality for the "best/HD" quality resulted in frame skipping in the same material.
So, my old 5 Mbps speed must have allowed a "mid HD" rate (perhaps 720p) that gave me skip free HD, but now I either have "best quality" and get skipping HD, or I set the Netflix preference to "better quality" and have skip free SD. It really sucks. My son's Vizio (on the same LAN) does not exhibit the skipping on the same material regardless of Netflix quality settings.
By the way, due to the skipping w/Netflix, I decided to give Amazon a whirl since they just added TOS in HD. That HD streaming was flawles on the Samsung, and, included DD via the optical output of my Samsung (not so w/Netflix).
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post #103 of 181 Old 09-03-2011, 02:47 PM
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jtiner, you don't mention what device you're streaming on. If you were truly getting 5 Mbps on your connection to Netflix's servers, that would cover both of the 720p encodings (2.6 and 3.8 Mbps), so you should already have been getting them. 12 Mbps would bring you to the point where you can get the 1080p encodings (5.1 Mbps), but only on the PS3 and Roku 2 (XD and XS).

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post #104 of 181 Old 09-03-2011, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

jtiner, you don't mention what device you're streaming on. If you were truly getting 5 Mbps on your connection to Netflix's servers, that would cover both of the 720p encodings (2.6 and 3.8 Mbps), so you should already have been getting them. 12 Mbps would bring you to the point where you can get the 1080p encodings (5.1 Mbps), but only on the PS3 and Roku 2 (XD and XS).

It's the embedded app. on a Samsung "C" series panel (C750). My previous bandwidth was definitely only limited by the cap on my port on the DSLAM; it was consistently 4.9 Mbps second w/Speakeasy and Speedtest.net.
I was definitely getting one of the HD streams with the 5 Mbps. The Samsung would (very) intermittently "blink" and drop to an obviously lower SD (or worse) quality, then pop back to HD.
Now, with a consistent ~ 12.1 Mbps, the frame skipping is consistent and renders programs and movies unwatchable for me.
So, you believe that I could now be receiving the 1080 streams, but that I'm not because only the Sony and Roku are capable of seeing them?
It's absolutely certain that I can restrict my quality via the Netflix web site and instanly see the change to SD w/o frame skips (after stopping/re-starting the stream) or set the quality to high/HD and see HD wframe skips on the same program material. Again, nothing else has changed; same television, no firmware change, no router/LAN changes, etc.
I'm really dreading the thought of calling Netflix/Samsung/ISP..... I'm sure that will be unproductive and stressful.
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post #105 of 181 Old 09-03-2011, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtiner View Post
So, you believe that I could now be receiving the 1080 streams, but that I'm not because only the Sony and Roku are capable of seeing them?
No I don't think that you're getting 1080p (and it's not "the Sony", it's specifically the PS3, which is quite separate from Sony A/V products). Forum member RangerOne, a tech blogger, has it from conversations with Netflix that only the Roku 2 and PS3 can play those 1080p streams at present.

The results from those brief bit rate test can be quite different from what you'd see on a connection to Netflix's servers, and the players/server might require that the connnection speed be a certain percentage higher than the encoding bit rate before giving you that encoding. Maybe the best connection you ever got was only good enough to sustain the 2.6 Mbps 720p encodings and now you're getting the 3.8 Mbps ones.
Quote:
It's absolutely certain that I can restrict my quality via the Netflix web site and instanly see the change to SD w/o frame skips (after stopping/re-starting the stream) or set the quality to high/HD and see HD wframe skips on the same program material. Again, nothing else has changed; same television, no firmware change, no router/LAN changes, etc.
I'm really dreading the thought of calling Netflix/Samsung/ISP..... I'm sure that will be unproductive and stressful.
The "Better Quality" option on Netflix's "Manage Video Quality" page limits you to .7 GB/hour (1.5 Mbps) , which will get you the highest quality SD encoding but nothing more.

I don't know exactly what's happening but I don't think you're getting the 1080p streams. Unfortunately, there's no way for you to test (I can do it, but it requires a specific older router running shareware firmware).

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post #106 of 181 Old 09-04-2011, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

No I don't think that you're getting 1080p (and it's not "the Sony", it's specifically the PS3, which is quite separate from Sony A/V products). Forum member RangerOne, a tech blogger, has it from conversations with Netflix that only the Roku 2 and PS3 can play those 1080p streams at present. /SNIP/

Maybe the best connection you ever got was only good enough to sustain the 2.6 Mbps 720p encodings and now you're getting the 3.8 Mbps ones.
The "Better Quality" option on Netflix's "Manage Video Quality" page limits you to .7 GB/hour (1.5 Mbps) , which will get you the highest quality SD encoding but nothing more.

Yes, I meant the PS3.... and I suspect that you're right regarding the 2.6 VS 3.8 encoded streams. And the "manage video quality" selection of "better quality" definitely results in SD only streams as you've indicated.
Is there a handy source for more detailed information on # of Netflix streams and bitrates, etc.? I'd be interested to know more..... I haven't seen anything on the Netflix tech. blog.
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post #107 of 181 Old 09-04-2011, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtiner View Post
Is there a handy source for more detailed information on # of Netflix streams and bitrates, etc.? I'd be interested to know more..... I haven't seen anything on the Netflix tech. blog.
You mean the number of encodings per title and their bit rates? The only thing that Netflix ever posted about it officially is the "Encoding for streaming" entry in their main blog. Though that's nearly 3 years old now (and overdue for an update IMO), the 3.8 Mbps maximum 720p bit rate has been proven (to my satisfaction, at least) by my testing; I should probably have tested the maximum SD bit rate but I don't much care . (I can only test the maximum within a resolution, since the only thing that I can control is the output resolution of the player; I can't cap the bandwidth on my connection). They seem to be starting to veer from that a little--the PC bit rate tiers were the same as for the embedded players, but last week I played an HD stream and saw an SD bit rate of 1.75 Mbps (as reported on their little debugging overlay) before it switched to an HD stream at 3.6 Mbps--they didn't used to have PC encodings at either of those rates.

Back when that blog entry was posted they didn't have 1080p encodings, so the bit rate of those isn't disclosed. I performed some thumbnail calculations based on the data I collected and estimated that it was 5.1 Mbps; lo and behold, the "Best quality" cap is 2.3 GB/hour, aka 5.1 Mbps .

In that blog entry they state that they required at least 40% headroom to give you a stream at a given bit rate (i.e., tested bandwidth has to be at least 140% of the stream bit rate). Intuitively, though available bandwidth needs to be higher than the stream bit rate in order to accumulate a buffer, 40% seem excessive for adaptive bit rate streaming, but what do I know ? That's consistent with you being stuck at 2.6 Mbps 720p on a 5 Mbps connection, since 3.8 Mbps would require at least 5.3 Mbps connection bandwidth (and those 5.1 Mbps 1080p encodings would require a minimum connection bandwidth of 7.1 Mbps).

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post #108 of 181 Old 09-22-2011, 06:57 PM
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Ever since the Netflix update last month, I have been getting dropped frames on the ps3 in the x-high HD streams. Watching the exact same program immediately after the update, I got dropped frames. About 1-2 a second. I was hoping it would improve but doesn't seem to have. Bordering on unwatchable. I have FIOS with a very fast connection, well more than needed for NF.
A few others I spoke with noticed it too
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post #109 of 181 Old 09-22-2011, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Ever since the Netflix update last month, I have been getting dropped frames on the ps3 in the x-high HD streams. Watching the exact same program immediately after the update, I got dropped frames. About 1-2 a second. I was hoping it would improve but doesn't seem to have. Bordering on unwatchable. I have FIOS with a very fast connection, well more than needed for NF.
A few others I spoke with noticed it too

Is it reproducible? Are there particular stretches of particular titles where it was very bad?

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post #110 of 181 Old 09-22-2011, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Is it reproducible? Are there particular stretches of particular titles where it was very bad?

I've been able to reproduce that problem. It's especially noticeable during long camera pans.
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post #111 of 181 Old 09-23-2011, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Is it reproducible? Are there particular stretches of particular titles where it was very bad?

Hiya, Michael. It's actually random for me. If I rewind a scene it will skip, drop frames in a different place. Sometimes it might actually play perfectly for 2 or 3 whole seconds but then skip a lot. Interestingly when the program first stops and it's ramping up through the resolutions it's fine until it hits x high hd. Then a couple of seconds in it will start.
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post #112 of 181 Old 09-23-2011, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Here is a fairly informed write-up of what it would taje to remaster TNG in HD, and why it is possible.
http://www.dvdtown.com/messageboard/topic/8274/3/0

This guy thinks it would be possible from season 3 onward.
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.ph...65#post3085165

Granted, even when this is done, Netflix would probably still have a jittery encode from the original version.

HD resolution, maybe... but 16:9, probably not. There's no guarantee that vfx were shot/generated for areas outside the intended 4:3 frame.
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post #113 of 181 Old 09-25-2011, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Ever since the Netflix update last month, I have been getting dropped frames on the ps3 in the x-high HD streams. Watching the exact same program immediately after the update, I got dropped frames. About 1-2 a second.

My Netflix app somehow updated itself without my permission the other day (maybe when I updated the PS3 firmware to 3.72?). I had been cancelling out of the update to avoid this and the audio problem, but I suddenly noticed that it wasn't asking me to update anymore.

Checked the version number and sure enough it's at 2.04 and I'm getting dropped frames on X-High, though not as frequent as what you're saying.
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post #114 of 181 Old 09-25-2011, 04:11 PM
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Is there any way to bring this issue to Netflix's attention (regarding dropped frames on the ps3)? I feel it would have to go straight to the programmers that created the app.
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post #115 of 181 Old 09-25-2011, 04:35 PM
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To be fair, I have a front projector with a 92" screen that I sit 10 feet from sobrge skips when it happens are VERY noticeable.
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post #116 of 181 Old 10-10-2011, 07:37 PM
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Bahaha! I thought watching SD Netflix encodes was bad before, but now that I have a way of outputting in 1080p/24p (new WD TV Live) you can tell just how bad some of the encodes are. DS9 is so bad as to be almost unwatchable.

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post #117 of 181 Old 10-10-2011, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post

Bahaha! I thought watching SD Netflix encodes was bad before, but now that I have a way of outputting in 1080p/24p (new WD TV Live) you can tell just how bad some of the encodes are. DS9 is so bad as to be almost unwatchable.

Laugh when they're no longer getting your money.

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Netflix-free for over a month and not missing it one bit.
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post #118 of 181 Old 10-11-2011, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by tima94930 View Post

Laugh when they're no longer getting your money.

Signed,

Netflix-free for over a month and not missing it one bit.

It's not like the encodes at Amazon are any better.
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post #119 of 181 Old 10-11-2011, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
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It's not like the encodes at Amazon are any better.

Fortunately, subscribing to a streaming service is not a mandate.
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post #120 of 181 Old 10-12-2011, 12:19 PM
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Jennifer Lynch's "Hisss" which a horror film she made in India about the Nagin myth and sect followers is available WI. In Hindi and some English with subtitles. No dancing around trees and some nudity (big no-no in India). I gave it 3 stars as it was entertaining. I liked her film "Surveillance." The listing says 1:33:1 but it is 2:35:1 or "scope." I had it lock up at time code 12:34 but advancing it to 13:00 kept it playing.

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Hisss/7017018
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