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post #1531 of 1919 Old 09-24-2013, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by reddice View Post

With the three major ISPs not supporting Open Connect that will be a lot of subscribers. They would be stupid to do that.

Verizon cannot be counted as a "major" ISP in the same breath as Comcast and TWC. They only recently edged out Cox; at the end of last year they had an estimated 4.73M basic subs to Cox's 4.54M and AT&T's 4.53M. TWC had 12.2M and Comcast had a whopping 22M. Of course, we don't know what percentage of those basic multichannel video service subs are also network service subscribers. (Dish and DTV both have large numbers of video subs but they don't provide network service). Combined basic subs of those US system currently set up for Open Connect access is probably somewhere around 10 million; Cox, Cablevision and Suddenlink account for 9 million.

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post #1532 of 1919 Old 09-24-2013, 10:51 PM
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The point is still valid though.

Until more of the larger ISPs sign up it is hard to see how Netflix would deliver most of its data on Open Connect.

Edit: What was a duopoly of ISPs (Cable and DSL) in many areas is now fast becoming a monopoly ATT and Verizon walk away from their DSL copper lines.

michaelscott I am guessing that you are not including DSL in your subscriber numbers.

Many (most?) consumers don't have a realistic option to switch to different ISPs so mailiang I don't see how consumers can switch from the ISP's that won't 'play ball'.

It is actually a pretty sad reflection on the US high speed internet market - if people had choices then maybe they could switch.
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post #1533 of 1919 Old 09-25-2013, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post

michaelscott I am guessing that you are not including DSL in your subscriber numbers.

No, I am not. There doesn't seem to be any source of data about high speed Internet service providers in general.

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post #1534 of 1919 Old 09-25-2013, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

The point is still valid though.
Many (most?) consumers don't have a realistic option to switch to different ISPs so mailiang I don't see how consumers can switch from the ISP's that won't 'play ball'.
.

That's what I meant when I said bite the bullet. They can't switch. Lets face it, things can change a lot in a few years. As time moves on the Carriers will be less competitive with a growing streaming market and their ISP's will become more receptive to services like Netflix that are producing their own content.


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post #1535 of 1919 Old 09-25-2013, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

Many (most?) consumers don't have a realistic option to switch to different ISPs so mailiang I don't see how consumers can switch from the ISP's that won't 'play ball'.

Some consumers do have some choice, but unless and until Verizon and/or AT&T decide to "play ball" with Netflix it won't do them any good in terms of getting access to Open Connect and its extras.

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post #1536 of 1919 Old 09-25-2013, 08:09 PM
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As we've said many times, it's not in Verizon's interest to "play ball" with Netflix as long as they're offering their own Redbox streaming service. So I guess it's Unotelly or Unblock for me if you want access to the extras Open Connect offers.

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post #1537 of 1919 Old 09-25-2013, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Some consumers do have some choice, but unless and until Verizon and/or AT&T decide to "play ball" with Netflix it won't do them any good in terms of getting access to Open Connect and its extras.

Unfortunately Verizon and ATT are both walking away from copper and DSL - so the choices are disappearing (as well as not offering Open Connect)

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Verizon-is-Willfully-Driving-DSL-Users-Into-the-Arms-of-Cable-120473

http://stopthecap.com/2013/07/08/fcc-landlines-will-only-exist-another-5-10-years-att-wants-out-by-2020/

I have first hand experience. I had Verizon DSL working well at 6 Mbps for many years - then last year they 'optimized my service' reducing it to 3 Mbps. Verizon showed no interest in keeping me as a customer - in fact I had the impression they were happy to lose me as a land line and DSL customer. I was able to switch Comcast but now have no realistic choices for High Speed Internet
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post #1538 of 1919 Old 09-25-2013, 11:53 PM
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I wasn't talking about Verizon and AT&T DSL but FiOS and U-verse. They seem pretty gung ho about those products. The 4.76M Verizon and 4.53M AT&T customers mentioned above were multichannel television service subs; neither company is providing that via DSL.

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post #1539 of 1919 Old 09-26-2013, 09:03 AM
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As I say I can't switch providers either. It is either TWC or DSL which will be going away soon. I can't even get FiOS which does not support Open Connect either and actually is worse with Netflix.

So you see if they would to cut me off because I can't use Open Connect they would lose me as a subscriber because I will have no choice to go anywhere else. But that can't happen as Netflix still has to provide service for ISP's that can't get Open Connect.

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post #1540 of 1919 Old 09-26-2013, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddice View Post

As I say I can't switch providers either. It is either TWC or DSL which will be going away soon. I can't even get FiOS which does not support Open Connect either and actually is worse with Netflix.

So you see if they would to cut me off because I can't use Open Connect they would lose me as a subscriber because I will have no choice to go anywhere else. But that can't happen as Netflix still has to provide service for ISP's that can't get Open Connect.

Netflix doesn't have to provide service to any ISP they can't reach an agreement with. They continue to do so because they would lose a ton of subscribers like yourself, which currently wouldn't be in their best financial interest. I was also a Verizon DSL customer until they started raising their fees while lowering their speeds to unacceptable levels. Fortunately for me I was able to switch to Cablevision the only ISP in my market. Most people don't have an alternative when it comes to video service here. I have DTV, but many of my neighbors are stuck with cable since they don't have a clear view of the southern sky. We are too far away to receive OTA, and there is no Fios. If you want more choices write to your Congressman, but I don't thing you will have much luck. wink.gif


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post #1541 of 1919 Old 09-26-2013, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, well, good news! lets see if this makes super hd with Unblock us more stable.

http://gigaom.com/2013/09/26/netflix-expands-super-hd-and-3-d-streaming-to-all-of-its-members/
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Netflix expands Super HD and 3D streaming to all of its members

Prepare for your Netflix streams to look better: Netflix is making its Super HD video quality available to all of its members. All members will also have access to 3D titles on Netflix. Both 3D and Super HD were previously only available to members whose ISPs placed the company’s Open Connect caching hardware within their networks.

Super HD streams are essentially 1080p HD streams with less compression, which should make for a better picture quality. Netflix recommends that members have at least 7 Mbps of bandwidth available for best results, but the company also serves a less-demanding Super HD version that only requires around 5 Mbps of bandwidth. 3D streams can require up to 12 Mbps of bandwidth, according to Netflix.

Netflix’s 3D catalog is thought to be small, but the company has been looking to offer higher-quality HD streams for a substantial number of the movies and TV shows it has been adding to its catalog, and obviously Netflix-exclusive content like House of Cards is available in Super HD as well.

Netflix first launched these higher-bitrate HD streams in January, and at the time only made it available to customers whose ISPs were using Open Connect. Customers without access to Super HD and 3D streaming were encouraged to contact their ISP and ask for it.

This kind of public petitioning didn’t go over well with everyone, and Time Warner Cable even alleged that Netflix was violating net neutrality principles — a somewhat ironic charge in light of various efforts by ISPs to get content providers to pay for the videos their customers are consuming.

By making Super HD and 3D available to everyone, Netflix has arguably one less carrot in its arsenal to convince ISPs to adapt Open Connect — but the company hasn’t given up completely on the idea to make this more of a public issue. Netflix is continuing to expand its monthly ISP ratings, which highlight the average speed its customers see on various ISP networks.

Netflix is also looking to add 4K streams to its service in the future. CEO Reed Hastings said during a recent public appearance that Ultra HD streams could come to Netflix as early as next year, and that these may require up to 15 Mbps of bandwidth.
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post #1542 of 1919 Old 09-26-2013, 02:49 PM
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Well that is indeed good (and a little surprising) news.

Makes sense though - didn't seem like most of the larger ISPs were going to sign up anyway so why penalize most customers who couldn't switch to an Open Connect ISP.

Other outlets reporting the same

http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/26/netflix-super-hd-open-to-everyone/

http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/26/4774732/netflix-super-hd-1080p-now-available-on-all-isp

Might explain why some on non-Open Connect ISP's got Super HD briefly in August.

michaelscott - I am not so sure now that 2160P (aka not quite accurately as 4K) will need an Open Connect ISP.

It also probably doesn't help those members that were already seeing issues with Netflix in peak viewing times.
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post #1543 of 1919 Old 09-26-2013, 02:53 PM
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From the gigaom article 'By making Super HD and 3D available to everyone, Netflix has arguably one less carrot in its arsenal to convince ISPs to adapt Open Connect — but the company hasn’t given up completely on the idea to make this more of a public issue. Netflix is continuing to expand its monthly ISP ratings, which highlight the average speed its customers see on various ISP networks.'

Not sure how well that will work for them. Now non Open connect ISP customers have access to Super HD and 3D streams it is likely they will climb up the rankings again.
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post #1544 of 1919 Old 09-26-2013, 02:58 PM
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Heh. OK, well I pre-paid for UnoTelly for a year so at least I'm getting the region switching out of it.

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post #1545 of 1919 Old 09-26-2013, 03:04 PM
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[Oprah]...And you get one, and you get one, and you get one![/Oprah] :D

 

Open Connect won't be going anywhere. Operating their own CDN (as Youtube does) will still be beneficial to the company, as it should continue to reduce their costs/reliability on contracting 3rd party CDNs.


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post #1546 of 1919 Old 09-26-2013, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westly-C View Post

[Oprah]...And you get one, and you get one, and you get one![/Oprah] biggrin.gif

Open Connect won't be going anywhere. Operating their own CDN (as Youtube does) will still be beneficial to the company, as it should continue to reduce their costs/reliability on contracting 3rd party CDNs.

Good point. Just let me add, that although I have Open Connect, I could care less about Super HD or 3D. The fact that I don't have buffering issues and I get HD quality streams any time of the day, is what matters to me.


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post #1547 of 1919 Old 09-26-2013, 03:45 PM
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Noticed it when I fired up my PS3 and went into the Netflix app I saw Super HD logo and the I went to Netflix.com/superhd and it just bought me to the main page.

I searched Google for Netflix Super HD and I just read the news. I hope this does not backfire as if anyone can get Super HD it does not degrade performance.

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post #1548 of 1919 Old 09-26-2013, 04:03 PM
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I'm happy for all of the people who were steamed that they couldn't get Super HD and 3D. Of course, people pulling down higher bit rate streams will certainly help the situation for those who can't get non-Super-HD during peak hours biggrin.gif.

I wonder if people will be getting the Super HD encodes from their OC servers somehow or have they bitten the bullet and accepted the hit to their bottom line that using more commercial CDN storage is going to cost them?

The 50% increase in bandwidth for the Super HD encodes should also delight the many people whose ISPs burden them with caps (like mine). Doesn't Comcast have a 250 GB cap? Netflix, really, really needs to augment the "Manage video quality" settings to let you say that you want everything short of Super HD.

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post #1549 of 1919 Old 09-26-2013, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post


The 50% increase in bandwidth for the Super HD encodes should also delight the many people whose ISPs burden them with caps (like mine). Doesn't Comcast have a 250 GB cap?

Comcast has suspended the cap for now while running trials in a couple of local markets. One of the trials is 300GB cap + $10 for each 50GB over each month. (Edit) The other trial is varying the cap (300 - 600GB) depending on subscribed speed.

However these are trials so it is not clear what they will roll out nationally in the end.

Your point is valid though. However for now I am well under the 300GB so 50% more for Super HD shouldn't be an issue. However when they roll out 2160P at 15 Mbps that may be a different matter.
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post #1550 of 1919 Old 09-26-2013, 09:28 PM
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The ISPs with caps probably paid netflix to do this biggrin.gif

Now they will bring in more money as more people exceed their caps and have to pay overages.

I'm just glad I can save $5 a month now. I cancelled my unBlock US tonight. I had no issues streaming the 3D content and SuperHD streams from several devices concurrently tonight with the FiOS DNS IP addresses.

For some reason Netflix still allows me to stream to 4 devices concurrently for only $7.99 a month.

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post #1551 of 1919 Old 09-27-2013, 07:49 AM
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I guess it's true. Time Warner/Road Runner out of the Milwaukee area. Ran the test video on my 3 active streamers.

Ramp up speeds to 5800 Kbps:

WDTV Live - 28 seconds
Roku 3 - 27 seconds
Apple TV 3 - 9 seconds

Tests run on my 50" Panasonic plasma HDTV. On that size screen could I readily see the resolution difference? Not really.

I'll try it tonight on my 120" Panasonic front projection system, that's usually the true test.
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post #1552 of 1919 Old 09-27-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post

I guess it's true. Time Warner/Road Runner out of the Milwaukee area. Ran the test video on my 3 active streamers.

Ramp up speeds to 5800 Kbps:

WDTV Live - 28 seconds
Roku 3 - 27 seconds
Apple TV 3 - 9 seconds

Tests run on my 50" Panasonic plasma HDTV. On that size screen could I readily see the resolution difference? Not really.

I'll try it tonight on my 120" Panasonic front projection system, that's usually the true test.

I tried it on my Apple TV (3rd Generation) yesterday evening on a 16 Mbps Comcast connection (using OpenDNS)

Previously the Apple TV would always start at 3850 kbps and hold steady at that speed.

Now the Apple TV starts (momentarily) at 5800 kbps - then drops to about 1000 kbps and then ramps back up to 5800 kbps. I didn't measure the time but it was longer than 9 seconds (probably 20 - 30 seconds) before it got back to 5800 kbps. If I look at the router real-time bandwidth I can see the download is a constant 16 Mbps while the video rate is adjusting (5800 kbps to 1000 kbps to 5800 kbps) so there is plenty of bandwidth to support the 5800 kbps stream.

I tried a few actual tiles at random (Thor, Battlestar Galactica episode, Netflix House of Cards episode). Thor and Battlestar Galatica both seemed to be Super HD with average download speeds over 7 Mbps over 10 minutes and after the initial sustained burst at 16 Mbps the typical peak and valley bandwidth signature of pulling down data at 16 Mbps (presumably while filling the buffer) and then droping to close 0 (buffer emptying) and then back up to 16 Mbps. House of Cards was a bit strange though clearly never reaching Super HD or even HD (previously I had no problem holding the 3850 1080P stream on House of cards).

I will test a little more at the weekend - but it seems strange the Netflix's prime content should have the issue and other material not (from admitedly only a small sample of titles) - maybe Netflix is serving House of Cards from different servers. I'll see if I can check which servers I am connected to using my Asus RT-N66U

(As I nice bonus I see Thor is now original aspect ratio, 1080P Super HD and 5.1 audio - I could have sworn when I first watched it on Netflix it was full screen, 720Pand stereo)

Edit - One more comment - the Super HD quality looks pretty good - but I still think the Netflix black level / shadow detail is poor compared with other sources (streaming and satellite) that I use. As I have said most of our viewing on the main TV is in the evening in a dark room and on a callibrated 55" plasma at about 8' - so I may be more susceptable to this than others viewing in different environments.
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post #1553 of 1919 Old 09-27-2013, 02:15 PM
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(As I nice bonus I see Thor is now original aspect ratio, 1080P Super HD and 5.1 audio - I could have sworn when I first watched it on Netflix it was full screen, 720Pand stereo).

You hadn't watched it for a while. Many things seem to start out with poor specs and gradually get better features added to them. That bunch of stuff they got in their initial deal with Epix (Thor, Captain America, Super 8, Warrior, etc) all started out 720p-only with stereo sound and no HD in the Win8 app or website player. Now they're all Super HD w/5.1 sound and can play in HD on PCs.

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post #1554 of 1919 Old 09-27-2013, 03:43 PM
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I use verizon and i'm now getting superHD. How?

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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I use verizon and i'm now getting superHD. How?

If you look at Aero 1's post (12th post above yours) you will see........
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post #1556 of 1919 Old 09-27-2013, 04:06 PM
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If you look at Aero 1's post (12th post above yours) you will see........

Yeah i read about it but verizon is still not on the open connect though?

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Yeah i read about it but verizon is still not on the open connect though?
Netflix blinked, you don't need Open Connect to get the Super HD streams anymore.
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post #1558 of 1919 Old 09-27-2013, 07:58 PM
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Yeah i read about it but verizon is still not on the open connect though?

Did you read Aero 1's post?

'Netflix expands Super HD and 3D streaming to all of its members'
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post #1559 of 1919 Old 09-28-2013, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

I tried it on my Apple TV (3rd Generation) yesterday evening on a 16 Mbps Comcast connection (using OpenDNS)

Previously the Apple TV would always start at 3850 kbps and hold steady at that speed.

Now the Apple TV starts (momentarily) at 5800 kbps - then drops to about 1000 kbps and then ramps back up to 5800 kbps. I didn't measure the time but it was longer than 9 seconds (probably 20 - 30 seconds) before it got back to 5800 kbps. If I look at the router real-time bandwidth I can see the download is a constant 16 Mbps while the video rate is adjusting (5800 kbps to 1000 kbps to 5800 kbps) so there is plenty of bandwidth to support the 5800 kbps stream.

I tried a few actual tiles at random (Thor, Battlestar Galactica episode, Netflix House of Cards episode). Thor and Battlestar Galatica both seemed to be Super HD with average download speeds over 7 Mbps over 10 minutes and after the initial sustained burst at 16 Mbps the typical peak and valley bandwidth signature of pulling down data at 16 Mbps (presumably while filling the buffer) and then droping to close 0 (buffer emptying) and then back up to 16 Mbps. House of Cards was a bit strange though clearly never reaching Super HD or even HD (previously I had no problem holding the 3850 1080P stream on House of cards).

I will test a little more at the weekend - but it seems strange the Netflix's prime content should have the issue and other material not (from admitedly only a small sample of titles) - maybe Netflix is serving House of Cards from different servers. I'll see if I can check which servers I am connected to using my Asus RT-N66U

(As I nice bonus I see Thor is now original aspect ratio, 1080P Super HD and 5.1 audio - I could have sworn when I first watched it on Netflix it was full screen, 720Pand stereo)

Edit - One more comment - the Super HD quality looks pretty good - but I still think the Netflix black level / shadow detail is poor compared with other sources (streaming and satellite) that I use. As I have said most of our viewing on the main TV is in the evening in a dark room and on a callibrated 55" plasma at about 8' - so I may be more susceptable to this than others viewing in different environments.

A quick update from this evening - again using Apple TV (3rd Generation) on a 16 Mbps Comcast connection (using OpenDNS)

Example Short started at 5800 kbps and stayed there.

Trying some other titles - Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Hunger Games - everything seems to be Super HD with 10 minute download speed averages around 7 - 7.5 Mbps on my router.....all look pretty good as well.

But the Netflix Original Series 'House of Cards' still limps along at SD (before yesterdays change it was always 3850 kbps 1080P). Can someone else with a non Open Connect ISP try Netflix Original Series 'House of Cards' and see what they get. I am looking at Episodes 8 and 9.
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post #1560 of 1919 Old 09-28-2013, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Netflix blinked, you don't need Open Connect to get the Super HD streams anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

Did you read Aero 1's post?

'Netflix expands Super HD and 3D streaming to all of its members'


Sorry. I posted before i read that part. Then read it but was kind of still confused.


Question. What is the download quality Netflix gives you before you even choose one? I admit i've never chosen, or even knew you choose, a download quality until yesterday when i was updating my account. I chose the best one they have and now videos load straight to 1080P instead of going in steps from SD to HD.

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