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post #31 of 97 Old 05-02-2008, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

James Cameron spoke enthusiastically about 48fps in 3D which he had experimented with. Then probably at 2k I guess.

Are Sony 4k projectors now capable of 48-60fps. I could live with that since I am skeptical of 3D presentations. I am not sure I want 3D for every movie.

Call me old fashioned but 4k@60fps would do me just fine. Over at the film-tech forum it is said Sony is persuing 8k and beyond so I guess enthusiast can make do with just 4k at home in the future.


A (US) Sony VP told the IBC 2006 conference Sony had 8K LCoS chips in the lab, that's all he mentioned on this issue.
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post #32 of 97 Old 05-02-2008, 10:18 AM
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The industry will not be able to support more than 48fps initially.
I can see lcos handling a possible extension to 96fps, 3D at 48fps.
144fps that dlp does today is hard to match for lcos. However 96fps should work pretty well!
The real problem for lcos with 3D is light output and that is probably tougher to solve especially for the large cinema screens.

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post #33 of 97 Old 05-02-2008, 11:32 AM
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JVC just announced its 8K (a bit more) chip.

Here's a report quoting a JVC release: http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news...Vision%21.html

And here's the release through Japan Corp Newswire: http://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=17999

JVC Develops 1.75-inch 8K4K D-ILA Device; World's Highest 35 Megapixel Pixel Count, More than 17x Full High-Definition


Tokyo, Japan, May 2, 2008 - (JCN Newswire) - Victor Company of Japan, Ltd. (JVC) announces a new addition to its lineup of proprietary D-ILA (Direct-Drive Image Light Amplifier) high-definition reflective liquid crystal devices for projectors. The newly developed 1.75-inch 8K4K D-ILA device has the world's largest number of pixels[1] and is able to display images of approximately 35 megapixels (8192 x 4320 pixels), the equivalent of more than 17 times the level of Full High-Definition. This means that a single display device can now produce Super Hi-Vision[2] images and can display images with the highest number of pixels currently defined under international standards.

After JVC developed the initial 7.86-megapixel (3840 x 2048 pixels) 4K2K D-ILA device in the summer of 2003, it subsequently further evolved the technology for highly realistic, high-definition images through a range of test viewings and verification testing, resulting in the development of JVC's first commercial 4K2K D-ILA device (1.7-inch device size, 5,000:1 device contrast ratio) and the 4K2K D-ILA projector incorporating that device in September 2004.

In June 2007 JVC developed a 1.27-inch 4K2K D-ILA device that was the world's smallest device of its kind, having a 6.8 micrometer pixel pitch and 4096 x 2400 pixels, and in February 2008 it began marketing a newly commercialized professional D-ILA projector, DLA-SH4K, incorporating that device.

Through the development of a new production process and new pixel structure for even finer pixels, JVC has now succeeded in developing the 1.75-inch 8K4K D-ILA device, the world's first device to achieve real Super Hi-Vision definition level. The new device has approximately 50% higher density in its ratio of area per pixel as compared to the 1.27-inch 4K2K D-ILA device, which was originally the world's smallest 4K device. Furthermore, the new device has achieved a video display of approximately 35 megapixels, the world's highest pixel counts[1], while continuing to provide the D-ILA series' characteristics such as "high-quality images without a distracting pixel structure", "high light availability", and "high contrast ratio".

What are D-ILA Reflective Liquid Crystal Devices?

D-ILA is the name given to JVC's proprietary high-performance reflective liquid crystal devices for projectors. These are typical LCOS (Liquid Crystal on Silicon) devices that provide both high brightness and high definition.

JVC successfully developed the 1.3-megapixel SXGA type device in October 1997 and launched the D-ILA projector the same year. Since that time, the company has accumulated many years of production experience with devices for high-end projectors and continually released new products: in May 2004, the company launched the world's first domestic Full HD front-projection system and then launched rear-projection systems into the US market in the July the same year.

The D-ILA Full High-Definition home theater projector DLA-HD1 launched in January 2007 utilized a newly developed 0.7-inch Full High-Definition D-ILA device and a new optical engine to achieve 15,000:1 native contrast ratio and "true black" expression without using an iris mechanism. Furthermore, the successor model DLA-HD100 introduced in December 2007 achieved the industry's highest[3] 30,000:1 native contrast ratio. Both models were well reviewed and proved great hit products in the global market.

The professional D-ILA projector, DLA-SH4K, which went on sale in 2008, achieves both 10,000:1 high contrast ratio and about 10-megapixel resolution more than four times the Full High-Definition level. This overwhelming image quality has received high praise, particularly in the presentation field.

For complete information, please visit http://www.jvc.co.jp/english/global-e.html

[1] As a projection-type display device, as of May 2, 2008.
[2] Super Hi-Vision is a TV broadcasting service currently under development at NHK; a single image has approximately 33 megapixels (7680 x 4320 pixels), with 60 frame/second sequential scanning and 22.2 multichannel sound. Image format is international standard ITU-R BT.1769, SMPTE 2036. Diagonal size is 1.67 inches at Super Hi-Vision standard pixel dimensions of 7680 x 4320.
[3] For a home theater projector, as of May 2, 2008, based on JVC survey.



About JVC

Victor Company of Japan, Ltd. (TSE: 6792; US: VJAPY), known worldwide as JVC, is well-known for its development of the VHS video standard, and has developed as an international company in the fields of audio, visual (A&V), information-related equipment, components, and entertainment for the domestic consumer market, as well as in the business market as a comprehensive provider of both hardware and software. JVC has received high praise in both domestic consumer and business markets. Visit the JVC home page at www.jvc.co.jp .

Contact:

Toshiya Ogata, Senior Staff Manager, or
David Gifford, Manager
Public Relations Group
Corporate Communications Department
Victor Company of Japan, Limited (JVC)
Tel: +81-(0)45-450-2951, 2952
Fax: +81-(0)45-450-2959
E-mail: ogata-toshiya@jvc-victor.jp
dgifford@jvc-victor.jp
URL: http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english
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post #34 of 97 Old 05-02-2008, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I heard a new lens needed to be designed to handle 4k. I can imagine the cost of the lens needed for 8k. I can see this getting very expensive. I love it though..the sooner they get 8k we will get the "hand me down" 4k
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post #35 of 97 Old 05-02-2008, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

I heard a new lens needed to be designed to handle 4k. I can imagine the cost of the lens needed for 8k. I can see this getting very expensive. I love it though..the sooner they get 8k we will get the "hand me down" 4k

Wow, my brain is spinning.
No doubt, if 4k is to hit the home market next year (skipping 2K altogether), Hollywood will demand 8K for theatrical release. BTW, 8K would easily match the resolution of 35mm, right?

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post #36 of 97 Old 05-02-2008, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mike Ferrara View Post

BTW, 8K would easily match the resolution of 35mm, right?

You don't need to project 8K to match the resolution of the 35mm release prints you see in the vast majority of theaters. You don't even need to project in 4K for that. Would you believe you don't even need 2K (leaving out the visibility of pixels, which is a different issue)? See http://www.fixetdefix.fr/IMG/pdf/35m...on_english.pdf and http://www.etconsult.com/papers/Tech...Resolution.pdf. Of course, film diehards who like to denigrate dcinema as "mere" video or TV (thus simply carrying on a tradition originating from Hollywood in the 50's) dismiss studies like this one.

Matching 35mm shouldn't be the goal. Matching or exceeding 70mm would be a better goal. A well done 4K system should _blow_ 35mm out of the water. An 8K system should blow 70mm out of the water.
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post #37 of 97 Old 05-02-2008, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GI Joe Sixpack View Post

Matching 35mm shouldn't be the goal. Matching or exceeding 70mm would be a better goal. A well done 4K system should _blow_ 35mm out of the water. An 8K system should blow 70mm out of the water.

OK, I'll skip the 4K and go directly to 8K
BTW, the great 70mm spectacles of the '50s deserve to be cherished. That was a golden age of cinema!

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post #38 of 97 Old 05-18-2008, 10:07 AM
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Hans Kiening's 11-page article, "4k+ Systems: Theory Basics for Motion Picture Imaging," in the SMPTE's April 08 "Motion Imaging Journal," covers some of the interesting material discussed above. He heads Arri's 4k+ project. (SMPTE.org sells single issues, or journal subscriptions separate from its membership inclusion.)

The article details differences between resolution and sharpness, with this summary:
Quote:
Sharpness does not depend only on resolution. The modulation of the lower spatial frequencies is essential. In other words, contrast in coarse details is significantly more important for the impression of sharpness than contrast at the resolution limit.

As an illustration, his Fig. 6 shows two small images of an Arri camera. One with coarse details in higher contrast does look 'sharper', while the other, which seems dull looking, has an inset enlarged knob detail with markings not visible by enlarging the lower-resolution but 'sharper' image.

His Figs 23-24 compares 2k vs 4k film scans as MTFs (modulation transfer functions), showing how the contrast at 20 line pairs/mm with 2k scanning jumps from 42% to 70% with 4k scanning. He shows, because of MTF cascading, why 4k scans of 35mm can't deliver 4k resolution, but why this boost in coarse frequencies/resolutions makes images seem sharp. 6k scanning is needed to provide 4k resolution on screen.

His Fig. 29 diagram for a 830-seat, 25-meter-screen theater shows how most viewers could resolve 4k, and some in the front four rows could resolve 8k. -- John
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John,
Could you link to this paper ?

Art


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post #40 of 97 Old 05-18-2008, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

6k scanning is needed to provide 4k resolution on screen.

What scanning resolution/source are they using for 1080P 24 material. I have aways felt our best ( consumer ) source does not taxi a 1080p projectors resolving capability, so 4k is needed to show the potential of a 1080p projector ? just as 6k would be needed for a 4k display. From the right distance to avoid visible pixel structure this is why some will argue they could not see more detail with BD displayed via a 720P projector verses a 1080p projector.

Good find John.
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

John,
Could you link to this paper ?

Art

I'll send you the paper, but I need to send via email, since it's large file 5MB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

What scanning resolution/source are they using for 1080P 24 material. I have aways felt our best ( consumer ) source does not taxi a 1080p projectors resolving capability, so 4k is needed to show the potential of a 1080p projector ? just as 6k would be needed for a 4k display. From the right distance to avoid visible pixel structure this is why some will argue they could not see more detail with BD displayed via a 720P projector verses a 1080p projector.

Good find John.

1080P materials are usually down-sampled from the 2K master, or may be getting rid of just the columns of pixel, unless you directly film it from 1080P camera (prosumer stuff). Sometime down-sampling it increases the noise floor, since it uses 'low pass' filter processing.

What is even better these days, they directly convert from the 4K DPX file to 1080P for BluRay release. You can do all these functions these days with system like Quantel's Pablo.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanohv View Post

I'll send you the paper, but I need to send via email, since it's large file 5MB

Thanks ,got it !

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Check this out Art,
http://gizmodo.com/386457/jvc-makes-...-hd-resolution

All I can say is, one pixel per day.....

What is the point of having so much pixels if the screen do not have the width. MTF, ANSI and FF CR are much more important.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanohv View Post

Check this out Art,
http://gizmodo.com/386457/jvc-makes-...-hd-resolution

All I can say is, one pixel per day.....

What is the point of having so much pixels if the screen do not have the width. MTF, ANSI and FF CR are much more important.

I agree ,at least for home say screens fron 10 ' to 16' size, your listed parameters should be higher on the totum pole.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

I heard a new lens needed to be designed to handle 4k. I can imagine the cost of the lens needed for 8k. I can see this getting very expensive. I love it though..the sooner they get 8k we will get the "hand me down" 4k

Do you have 50' screen to even see 8K
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post #47 of 97 Old 05-18-2008, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Actually I dont think any of us here care about 8k let alone 4k. Lets take care of business & maximize 1080p, theres plenty of room for improvement.
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post #48 of 97 Old 05-18-2008, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Actually I dont think any of us here care about 8k let alone 4k. Lets take care of business & maximize 1080p, theres plenty of room for improvement.

Yes and give us much better blacks and much higher contrast.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Actually I dont think any of us here care about 8k let alone 4k. Lets take care of business & maximize 1080p, theres plenty of room for improvement.

You are so wise, Master Yoda.

Couldn't agree more.

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post #50 of 97 Old 05-19-2008, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

John,
Could you link to this paper ?

Sorry, it's online only with SMPTE membership at SMPTE.org. Often articles in current journal issues are published 1 year earlier in tech meeting papers and are available elsewhere; not this one AFAIK. Arri might put his paper on their site at some time. Looks like you received a copy via e-mail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

What scanning resolution/source are they using for 1080P 24 material. I have aways felt our best ( consumer ) source does not taxi a 1080p projectors resolving capability, so 4k is needed to show the potential of a 1080p projector ? just as 6k would be needed for a 4k display. From the right distance to avoid visible pixel structure this is why some will argue they could not see more detail with BD displayed via a 720P projector verses a 1080p projector.

Can't recall the paper getting into 1080p much, it mostly deals with 4k+ scanning, including one at 10k. AIUI, though, a downconverted 4k scan is supposedly needed to achieve 1080p's full potential. I've noted your dissatisfaction with what's being delivered on HD discs--even though some, such as King Kong, were produced from 4k production digital intermediates (DIs). My assumption is that the 4k DIs actually carried effective resolutions of perhaps only ~1100 lines maximum horizontal resolution/picture width (as outlined earlier here based on sspears' spectrum analysis of 1080/24p ~270 Mbps master tapes and Joe Kane's published related comments.

Actually, doubt if sspears' masters (some years back) were originally 4k-scan sourced. So his summary of 800--1300 lines effective resolution, with 1300 only for CGI images AIUI, might not apply to 4k-scan-sourced HD discs. This comment is from the link above by WSR's Gary Reber:
Quote:


The horizontal resolution of most film transfers rarely gets above 800 lines. The test film material from Digital Video Essentials was the first time the SMPTE HD (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers)
group had seen material as high as 1100 lines.

Seems a bit 'nebulous' but guess someone could compare DVE test-disc scenes and guesstimate whether the images on, say, King Kong, are at ~1920 maximum compared to the DVE's ~1100 lines maximum effective horizontal resolution (per picture width). (This all refers, of course, to actual images from films, subject to sampling and Nyquist limitations, not non-sampled test pattern images such as bursts or resolution wedges.) Maybe one of these days someone will update sspears' informal study with newer spectrum analysis tests. -- John
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Actually I dont think any of us here care about 8k let alone 4k. Lets take care of business & maximize 1080p, theres plenty of room for improvement.

It's the only way to get a large image for the short viewing distance typically found in North-Western European homes.
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for the first gen HD cameras, there were resolution issues in that the lenses were not able to optimize to the format. once those came online... suddenly HD quality jumped.

We are so far from optimization of the current HD formats (both in content and displays systems) that it is funny to see these talks about 4k.

4K is for mastering. that is it.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

for the first gen HD cameras, there were resolution issues in that the lenses were not able to optimize to the format. once those came online... suddenly HD quality jumped.

We are so far from optimization of the current HD formats (both in content and displays systems) that it is funny to see these talks about 4k.

4K is for mastering. that is it.

Maybe, but we are going to see 4K soon. It looms for both commercial as well as HT.

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post #54 of 97 Old 05-19-2008, 07:13 PM
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Surely 4k is coming but what will be the delivery media? Those are going to be some big files. Of course 4 TB hard drives are about 6 months out, however I highly doubt hard drives will be the method used.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Kellogg View Post

Surely 4k is coming but what will be the delivery media? Those are going to be some big files. Of course 4 TB hard drives are about 6 months out, however I highly doubt hard drives will be the method used.

Don,

If I'm not mistaken, this is the delivery method now for DCI. What is the bitrate for uncompressed 4K?

Cliff
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other than the occaisonal speacialty thing art... not for a long time. $ K is what they master in. and once in a while, sony or JVC gets a 4 k transfer to show off their new proj.

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post #57 of 97 Old 05-20-2008, 05:12 AM
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Red Ray, an upcoming 4k optical disc player (standard red lasers) from the makers of the 4k Red One digital-cinema camera, hasn't--so far--received much speculation about potential consumer use. It's for production and some suggest it could also deliver 4k movies in digital-cinema theaters. If it further compresses already compressed Red-format recordings, 4k PQ might be reduced. But the link to more Red Ray discussion and speculation is below in a copy of another post on Red One production:

Quote:
Prefer the optimistic side here. Read a post by a producer at reduser.net today. He's been recording 4k/3k nature shows with his 4k-sensor (3.2k-effective-rez) RED One cameras for over a year. This ~$17.5k camera (sans lens), as we all know, is aimed at independent producers. Numbers of indie Red-One movies are growing (see a reduser.net thread), as well as at least one major Hollywood feature (also see user site).

And of course any existing film can be scanned at 4k, and digital-intermediate 4k scans, for production purposes, exist for some feature films; search imdb.com technical section for 4k . A 5k EPIC camera and Red One 35mm-size sensor upgrades should deliver full ~4k effective resolution or higher. The upcoming RED Ray optical disc players, based on standard red lasers, is meant for production purposes AIUI. But it might serve for theater projection, too, some speculate.

No need to list them all, but as mentioned initially above, professional 4k-capable displays have been available for years if you have the $$$. High-end consumer versions seem quite feasible. As for the "look" of 4k versus current HDTV, the "wow" reactions of professionals viewing Red One productions at the recent NAB show or earlier (see reduser.net, etc.) suggests the resolution boost is visually dramatic. Assuming an earlier spectrum analysis review of telecined films on ~270-Mbps 1080/24p master tapes is accurate, indicating typical 800--1100 line maximum effective horizontal resolution, a jump to ~3.2k maximum, it seems, should be dramatic in any viewing environment. -- John

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post #58 of 97 Old 05-20-2008, 05:40 AM
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I met with JVC Pro. Their 4K will be available this year. The first one is being installed in NY I believe was the comment. The price is not official but it is expected to cost over $100K.
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post #59 of 97 Old 05-20-2008, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Don_Kellogg View Post

Surely 4k is coming but what will be the delivery media? Those are going to be some big files. Of course 4 TB hard drives are about 6 months out, however I highly doubt hard drives will be the method used.


4K projection is coming soon with scaling from HD to 4K. I doubt we will see 4K source for the home for a lot longer.

Art


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post #60 of 97 Old 05-20-2008, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

4K projection is coming soon with scaling from HD to 4K. I doubt we will see 4K source for the home for a lot longer.

Art


yes very likely from sony we will see soon there first demos units at cedia
or infocomm this year with we may can purchase late this year or
beginning next year this pr.

as it will push ti a bit to bring also 4k thats anyway good for us all.

i guess that at the same timeframe we will see high cr. high lumen
xenon 2k dlps.

the hunt for the best picture will be never over ontill we have
a holo deck
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