Prometheus Master Of Technology... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 330 Old 08-20-2008, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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This one will be very dark .

Don't confuse MY PREFERENCE with my clients. I am the one that continues trying to defy the laws of physics by trying to preserve the view. Sue me but I like media rooms not theaters. Although I now fully understand the limitations of FP, there's no free lunches.


The Helene room before the porthole was measured at 815 when the colors were shot first even though the chairs are beige the room is long and narrow with navy walls. But that projector is a fluke it measured 860 in the west coast in a totally dark room. Probably after the port hole is 780.

This one Prometheus only measured 825 in the west coast. The room is freaking dark, with one double seal door 2 doors one after the other.

The wood is dark rosewood the ceiling and front wall and upper side walls is black gom, the lower sides and lower back is super dark navy, the chairs are deep wine, the divan (family bed is cashmere, don't know exactly there), it's very dark, but the screen is designed to ignore the walls ceiling and floor and direct the light at the audience.

This will be as dark as it gets from me probably.

But remember all the ansi cr. maximization effort is really for the MTF. It is not a clear correlation that MTF goes down linearly with ansi cr., my gut feeling tells me MTF can stay at maximum whilst the ansi cr may have taken a minor 15% hit for whatever condition.

Anyways please don't start picking on my marketing material to the customer, until every claim is proven it is just that.
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post #92 of 330 Old 08-20-2008, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I also wonder what a Torus does to ANSI CR since part of the screen can then reflect on another part opposite it in the angle, but I don't recall ever measuring that effect with a curved screen to see how much it is.

--Darin

No the gain in the screen is such that it does not cross reflect 2.3.
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post #93 of 330 Old 08-20-2008, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

This one Prometheus only measured 825 in the west coast. The room is freaking dark, with one double seal door 2 doors one after the other.

To be clear, is that from the projector or the screen? I'm guessing from the projector. Have you done any measurements off the screens in these rooms? I know can be a tough thing to do at these high values, which is one reason I wonder if you have been able to get any reliable readings off the screens.
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No the gain in the screen is such that it does not cross reflect 2.3.

Have you measured ANSI CR off a screen like this to see? I realize that the high gain helps focus the light, but even a 1% washout from a white rectangle on one side to a black rectangle on the other (like 0.01 gain to that spot) would take a 700:1+ ANSI CR projector to under 100:1 ANSI CR off the screen for those rectangles.

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post #94 of 330 Old 08-20-2008, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

To be clear, is that from the projector or the screen? I'm guessing from the projector. Have you done any measurements off the screens in these rooms? I know can be a tough thing to do at these high values, which is one reason I wonder if you have been able to get any reliable readings off the screens.
Have you measured ANSI CR off a screen like this to see? I realize that the high gain helps focus the light, but even a 1% washout from a white rectangle on one side to a black rectangle on the other (like 0.01 gain to that spot) would take a 700:1+ ANSI CR projector to under 100:1 ANSI CR off the screen for those rectangles.

--Darin

I will get back to you, I think both I know the numbers were all over the place and the dlp engineer that does this for me at the west coast took many readings. So probably the screen (an smx ug he uses).

In Helene here it was at the projector, it was done after shooting the colors for the TiP7 autocalib.

Take a look at the screen radius is not that deep, with a 2.3 gain skin I doubt it cross reflects like you say.

If you'd like , I'll let you measure it yourself. But keep in mind we are after Maximum MTF not maximum ansi cr. I would like to understand the linearity of the interdependency, not much info. It's clear its not linear, maybe log..
LL
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post #95 of 330 Old 08-20-2008, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Touche.

You can design dual gull wing monocoques that swing in and out into position.

That is one luxury we don't have in this job. I am hoping there is a huge delta between this image and Helene's, if there is not, then I will abandon the Torus for good, but my gut instinct tells me this will be spectacular, it's a gamble, for a client that lived with one such screen for 16 years and found none better, mind you.

I have been promised the highest exposure sports client in Palm Beach (in 2010) by the architect in Helene that already pimped me out , very very famous sports figure. Of the many things I envision is the possibility of having a 16 wide masking torus system with 3-D day and date Dolby Show Bel- air circuit system. I would create and insane 12 quad/biamped channel (multiamped) Munro designed Dynaudio acoustics system with ML amps, racks and racks of it. I would do distributed surround sound systems all over the house (surround in the bedrooms, the family room, the living room(invisible), around the pool. Put in several 103 inch and 1 150 inch plasmas with 4 way custom masking systems.

One can dream... Right? I believe in the power if visualization, life may be a sheithole but visualization helps.



Because we can match any shape in the Torus blanking we are going to use two lutron roll down shades and fudge the midscreen side edge positions to match the rollers. Not ideal, I know (but fvck it) this rig is for maximum MTF CinemaScope, (CinemaScope at 825-850 ansi contrast), one cannot get that with an Isco, or an Isco plus a color correcting filter, or a LCOS with Isco (regardless of price). Everything else is <500 ansi cr..

Holy ****! Seriously wow man- that is some system!
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post #96 of 330 Old 08-21-2008, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

But keep in mind we are after Maximum MTF not maximum ansi cr.

Then there is a good chance that Art's HT5000 is at or near the top, since it has such great convergence.

And for all the talk of the ISCO III hurting ANSI CR, if you are going for maximum MTF then I wouldn't be surprised at all if an ISCO III in the path could still achieve higher MTF if the resulting image was converged well enough over a projector without an ISCO III, but without convergence that is as good. At least for native resolution images of very high frequency (like a 1x1 checkerboard).

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #97 of 330 Old 08-21-2008, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Then there is a good chance that Art's HT5000 is at or near the top, since it has such great convergence.

And for all the talk of the ISCO III hurting ANSI CR, if you are going for maximum MTF then I wouldn't be surprised at all if an ISCO III in the path could still achieve higher MTF if the resulting image was converged well enough over a projector without an ISCO III, but without convergence that is as good. At least for native resolution images of very high frequency (like a 1x1 checkerboard).

--Darin

Yes Art should start an auction on his projector, maybe it will sell at Christie's for millions but dude you really need to take a look at a DCI projector on these size screens and IMHO stop wasting time with more mundane projectors. As discussed in the other forum there is DELTA in performance that is hard to account by ansi numbers,even with imperfect convergence, and all the metrics you want to throw at it. I made the assumption that a home projector could approximate the levels of performance that was the big epiphany for me this year, that compact 70mm CinemaScope look, a materially superior image whose advantage I have deducted to be ascribed to as more MTF (for lack of better explanation or psycho-visual research). It is probably a combination of better optics but these things are not even close. And I would recommend that as many people as possible here take time to see such setups, because when that happens you will instantly understand that is apples and oranges, better yet it's peanut butter and caviar (or if you don't like caviar substitute for your favorite delicacy).

And that underscores a fallacy Darin that your signature about this forum having to be "ALL SCIENCE" raises. I appreciate your scientific curiosity but in my field work with the DCI PJ's and The Torus screen shows that it is the least understood of sciences, because it is making partial, incorrect or oversimplified assumptions about the primary human sensor (the eyes). In other words theory is a must, but never let instrumentation tell you you are seeing what your eyes don't see. Like the above comment about a perfectly aligned HT 5000 being at the top of the MTF range (I am telling you it is not from recent experience -not even close- stop theorizing there). Instrumentation may corroborate part of the picture but never the whole picture, and to limit or fine tune a system just with instrumentation does not get you the girl. Sorry, so in mastering this field it's part science, a lot of experimentation and visual training and some bravado and willingness to learn from a failure.


Re convergence on Barco:
In any event the current Barco requires a serious technician to do the convergence correction with special tools working at multiple points of the engine, in the next PJ DP-1200 it will be a cake walk all in one easy to access board not unlike the 1.2 dci dmd units.
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post #98 of 330 Old 08-22-2008, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Mars Attacks!!!


As you see the entire surround sound canopy is refractive at mid to high frequencies in a visually stealthy and light robbing fashion.











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post #99 of 330 Old 08-26-2008, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is the Vox Divina fully finished.




View of the TORUS.





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post #100 of 330 Old 09-25-2008, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Steve Layne of www.objectivedesign.com was kind enough to forward me these upgraded renderings.



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post #101 of 330 Old 09-25-2008, 08:15 AM
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Looking good Peter. Cant wait to see that screen in action.
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post #102 of 330 Old 09-26-2008, 05:48 PM
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It's nice to know that Peter will be scorching the earth looking for the best that there is the AV world, stretching the boundaries of our imagination, while we go back to our working and family life's, and fall out of the loop of what's going on in hi flying world of hi-end AV.


Thanks Peter
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post #103 of 330 Old 09-27-2008, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to you guys. Here comes the tough part now...

Getting the XLR cables made to length. We must measure the conduits for the three front channels and two subs in order to get exact cable lengths(sucker is tight).



A specially made rack was built to hold the three front ML mono blocks , plus the center channel... This table is not positioned center but the cc speaker is.

In addition the whole speaker array is covered by a speaker fabric box, that acts as a shadow box for the TORUS screen. How to build this exoskeleton strong enough , yet open enough for acoustical transparency is the hardest part of this job. A Huge tailored sculptured speaker grille from wall to wall around the 2.37 screen.









The rack starts populating...

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post #104 of 330 Old 10-06-2008, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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This installation is by another vendor in charge of the Lutron/AMX home automation.
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post #105 of 330 Old 10-06-2008, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Speaker screen exoskeleton:






D-box custom support by SMX Ruben.

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post #106 of 330 Old 10-06-2008, 09:38 PM
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Why are you so concerned with getting the XLR cables the "right length"? they can be different by hundreds of feet and there will be no difference. The physics is quite clear on it.

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

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http://commonsensehasdied.blogspot.com/
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post #107 of 330 Old 10-06-2008, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

Why are you so concerned with getting the XLR cables the "right length"? they can be different by hundreds of feet and there will be no difference. The physics is quite clear on it.

Mebbe MAX is a closet tweaker?

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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Thanks to you guys. Here comes the tough part now...

Getting the XLR cables made to length. We must measure the conduits for the three front channels and two subs in order to get exact cable lengths(sucker is tight).



More seriously, Max simply said he had to measure carefully to get the right length of XLR cable to each speaker. He didn't say that each XLR cable would be the same length. Don't they teach you techies over at Extron how to read???

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #108 of 330 Old 10-07-2008, 09:53 AM
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i only asked as there is much false info perpetuated by tweakers... that is completely wrong.

While i am willing to accept that there is much subjective "stuff" on cable "sound quality (eye roll) and esoteric "stuff" about speakers that follows nothing in the known physical universe...

the reality is that with cables, when you look at the length of the wavelength of the signal in the audio range, an interconnect (line level) signal cable can be hundreds of feet different in length and the signal will arrive at the speaker at the same time.

So if it is a case of just trying to ensure that it is long enough, add a few feet and then dress it at the rack, there will be no issues unless you start sending audio in the 50mHz range.

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Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

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post #109 of 330 Old 10-07-2008, 11:12 AM
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Yes ,very cool ! Peter, why was it that you chose a toroidal screen for this install ?

Art

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iRule rules my theater
 

"If she's amazing she won't be easy,if she's easy she won't be amazing"

 

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post #110 of 330 Old 10-07-2008, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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The owner's rear rack dressing and overall cable length expectations are extremely high, he don't want any slack coiled. It has to be made to length and be very well dressed and terminated, as we site the equipment in the close confines of the stage, everything has shifted a bit from the original design. The speaker grill cloth assembly is another high precision tailoring job. The risks on both of these tasks outweigh the compensation.
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post #111 of 330 Old 10-07-2008, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Yes ,very cool ! Peter, why was it that you chose a toroidal screen for this install ?

Art


Hi Art, The owner is a big fan of the Torus, and believes that the ansi contrast enhancements will be worth it to bring all the nuance out of the highly modded Barco's image. I am 66% confident that the image will have the ultimate punch depth and 3 dimensionality, those elusive psychovisual benefits the Torus fans claim to see but have a hard a time explaining the why.

If it is not significantly better than say the SMX at Helene this may be the last Torus for Home Theater, I am hoping that is not the case.
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post #112 of 330 Old 10-12-2008, 09:57 AM
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Nothing like the dynamic presence of the Dyn's. One of my top five. What's the models?
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post #113 of 330 Old 10-12-2008, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

Why are you so concerned with getting the XLR cables the "right length"? they can be different by hundreds of feet and there will be no difference. The physics is quite clear on it.

You can't use them to double dutch if they aren't the same lengths...


"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
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post #114 of 330 Old 10-12-2008, 12:48 PM
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^ The physics are quite clear on that as well.

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
-- Saint Jerome (374 AD - 419 AD)

My Home Theatre
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post #115 of 330 Old 10-12-2008, 07:27 PM
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this is true

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...
http://commonsensehasdied.blogspot.com/
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post #116 of 330 Old 10-13-2008, 09:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post

Nothing like the dynamic presence of the Dyn's. One of my top five. What's the models?

Yeah very easy sound to fall in love with. Confidence 4's,cc,c1's in the ceiling.
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post #117 of 330 Old 10-30-2008, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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While the high end forum continues to theorize to no end, here in the trenches these are the issues.

The TORUS proximity sensor tolerances.







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post #118 of 330 Old 10-30-2008, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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when the custom machined high cantilever 134" d-box platform was set on test mode the vibration to the house could be seen on the chandelier 3 floors down.



We opted to insulate the pit with two layers of Acustiblok.


Here the actuators are shimmed for exact platform level with the ground floor.


An access panel is prepared for later service of the system. Of course all wiring will be detailed neatly against the floor.
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post #119 of 330 Old 10-30-2008, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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The rs-2 Stewart stealth system is being finished...


Notice the aperture on the removable giant panel is the minimum necessary, thus the rectangular shape.

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post #120 of 330 Old 10-30-2008, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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In order to have a nice clean look across the front stage we decided on a shadow box (which should add some ansi enhancement properties to the already high ansi cr design as well).

Because it is an 87 year old house, not everything is square. That coupled with the uneven radiussed edge of the torus have presented a protracted fitting challenge.


The structure is semi acoustically transparent to minimize early reflections from the speakers and screen. This also keeps the weigh low.



All four sides must be removable to change the screen surface.
For this we devised a tongue in slot hanging method.






While the front facing grilles use an acustone highly transparent speaker grille material, the four sides of the shadowbox and the soffit above it are fr701 black. This ties in to the rest of the ceiling treatment.

We are testing sevral padding materials for the shadow box to give it a smooth elegant finish.



It was decided for aesthetic reasons to not have any seams across the long lines, this presents a CHALLENGE as the two long spans have now to be joined into une giant 146" long removable pane.
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