Has Dlp Cinema projector innovation ended? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 09-10-2008, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Well
Resolution limited to 2048x1080
Contrast limited to 2000:1
Color is fine as it is
Frame rate should be at least a multiple of 48 instead of 24, that is 48 true progressive frames per second

The only innovation seems to be with 3D but how many really want 3D for every movie?

Is the current state of DC all that we can expect for many years to come?

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post #2 of 32 Old 09-10-2008, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Well
Resolution limited to 2048x1080
Contrast limited to 2000:1
Color is fine as it is
Frame rate should be at least a multiple of 48 instead of 24, that is 48 true progressive frames per second

The only innovation seems to be with 3D but how many really want 3D for every movie?

Is the current state of DC all that we can expect for many years to come?

There might be enough pressure from 4K to get DLP to go to work there I don't know.

Art


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post #3 of 32 Old 09-14-2008, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Well
Resolution limited to 2048x1080
Contrast limited to 2000:1
Color is fine as it is
Frame rate should be at least a multiple of 48 instead of 24, that is 48 true progressive frames per second

The only innovation seems to be with 3D but how many really want 3D for every movie?

Is the current state of DC all that we can expect for many years to come?

I may be playing semantics here but the limitations of digital cinema are not necessarily the limitations of the digital cinema machines. Contrast being a prime example.

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post #4 of 32 Old 09-14-2008, 10:43 AM
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There is already at least one DCI unit with greater than 6k-1 @D65. This is the beginning of the "REC709 Mastering Reference class of projectors".In this class the on/off contrast is higher when in rec709 than if set to p7/3.


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post #5 of 32 Old 09-14-2008, 10:58 AM
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I fully expect to see a 4k dlp in 2 years.


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post #6 of 32 Old 09-14-2008, 11:26 AM
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Its sad progress has been limited to pixel count and contrast. Is there anything on the projector side that can give us more color gradients, wider color, higher bit rate. When I say wider color gamut you see plenty of people complaining about the JVC not looking accurate yet the LED driven DLP at Cedia had yet an even wide gamut yet the colors were reported stunning, very rich on the screen and did not look un natural ( Chilin ). It seams theres plenty of room for improvement to be had on the display side besides pixel count and contrast.
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post #7 of 32 Old 09-14-2008, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

There is already at least one DCI unit with greater than 6k-1 @D65. This is the beginning of the "REC709 Mastering Reference class of projectors".In this class the on/off contrast is higher when in rec709 than if set to p7/3.

My point exactly.

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post #8 of 32 Old 09-15-2008, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

I fully expect to see a 4k dlp in 2 years.

Me too. TI has to. The difference between real 4k material on the Sony 4K and the same on 2K DLPs is too sobering in the spatial detail department. The Sony blows the DLPs away.
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post #9 of 32 Old 09-15-2008, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Me too. TI has to. The difference between real 4k material on the Sony 4K and the same on 2K DLPs is too sobering in the spatial detail department. The Sony blows the DLPs away.

I'd love to see one that does. Ive just seen and used 16 Sony 4k units that need a double defocus preset applied to soften the very apparent MC. They also have serious uniformity issues. There are color issues too.This is normal with them all.

The ones I saw were freebies from Sony even including a full service package. This too is common, as an attempt to gain market penetration.

They actually don't blow the DLPs away at all. Thats why there are so many complaints with them, especially from the staff who are forced to use them.

Things will get better, and I agree that T.I. will need to follow.

Hope this helps.

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post #10 of 32 Old 09-15-2008, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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mhafner
What kind of 4k setups, projector and source, did you witness at IBC?
JVC is currently at 8k panels so you would think TI could manage 4k eventually. Replacing 2k units with 4k units is also business. The 2k units can be sent down the food chain, lesser screens and cinemas.

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post #11 of 32 Old 09-15-2008, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

mhafner
What kind of 4k setups, projector and source, did you witness at IBC?
JVC is currently at 8k panels so you would think TI could manage 4k eventually. Replacing 2k units with 4k units is also business. The 2k units can be sent down the food chain, lesser screens and cinemas.

Not native 8K i supposed, the last broadcastasia, NHK showed their 8K projection and what i saw instead is a stacked 4K, interpolated to create one giant 8K image. One projector just for red/blue color and the other only for green. There's a serious unifomity issue, which was admitted by the JVC japanese techs themselves. However the image is still stunning though the contrast ain't that great
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post #12 of 32 Old 09-15-2008, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, that is how JVC used to build their pseudo 8k projector. Now that they have developed a high contrast true 8k panels they could develop a true 8k projection system for Super Hivision.

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post #13 of 32 Old 09-19-2008, 07:40 PM
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What many people do not realize is that with the paradigm shift with digital comes the upgrade/obscolecence cycle that cinema has never had to deal with before. For 100+ years upgrades in picture quality came in the form of new film print stocks and were free. If Kodak made an improvement in grain size, color or contrast, everyone eventually got the improvement in picture quality for free. Of course there were advances in lenses and light sources but those were not mandadory or compulsary upgrades. With digital, all these image quality variables are now tied directly to hardware (not software). True there was 70mm but that was not available for every release and most theatres could afford that equipment for a premiere house or two, if they wanted to. Technology shifts of the magnitude of digital cinema are difficult and expensive, I doubt the commercial cinema industry could exist as we know it with the upgrade cycle that other industries sustain...without $25 ticket prices and $15 popcorn. And, as mentioned in another active thread here, most people don't care about picture quality...if the story is good, audio is decent and picture is resolvable, most patrons are happy. In the late 90s people would seek out digital audio theatres and even the new stadium seating theatres, no one is asking for the 'digital cinema' theatres or the '5,000:1 contrast' theatres.
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post #14 of 32 Old 09-20-2008, 05:13 AM
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True but this is also the first time that it wasn't that difficult or expensive to exceeed the commercial theater experience in almost every parameter in our homes. That has raised the bar.

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post #15 of 32 Old 09-20-2008, 07:41 AM
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A/V quality aside, it still comes down to content and the desire of people to get out of the house every once in a while. Those are about the only reasons left...that and it is the only place you can get a 128oz tub of popcorn for $12.
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post #16 of 32 Old 09-28-2008, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Me too. TI has to. The difference between real 4k material on the Sony 4K and the same on 2K DLPs is too sobering in the spatial detail department. The Sony blows the DLPs away.

The problem is the bandwidth needed to drive the 4x additional pixels. DLP is more difficult to drive than LCOS so I would be surprised to see 4K DLP anytime soon.


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post #17 of 32 Old 09-28-2008, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

The problem is the bandwidth needed to drive the 4x additional pixels. DLP is more difficult to drive than LCOS so I would be surprised to see 4K DLP anytime soon.

TI will have to shrink the panel.
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post #18 of 32 Old 10-01-2008, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

TI will have to shrink the panel.

The problem isn't with the size of the imaging chip itself but the associated processor that drives it. Remember the dithering and banding problems that plagued earlier generations of DLP chipsets? Those were solved with better outboard processors and higher bandwidths when TI moved to 1080p. With 4Kx2K the drive problems surface again. By comparison, one of the strengths of LCOS is that it's relatively easy to drive and most of the drive circuitry is placed on the backside of the imaging chip itself. Ignoring optical and scaling issues all that is needed for LCOS to move to 4k is a bigger chip. DLP on the other hand requires a new processing chip and a way to address the requirement of a 4x increase in bandwidth between the two chips.

Unfortunately, TI is pretty stingy with R&D money unless it's related to buying new fab technology. So I would expect them to fund this development only if there is a viable return on investment. Does anyone want to speculate on how many 4k DLP machines could be sold? I would think that movie houses that already paid to install 2k d-cinema machines would be reluctant to upgrade any time soon so they would probably only be selling to houses that haven't yet switched to d-cinema and most of those would probably be content to go to 2k rather than spend more on 4k. Anyway that's just my guess but I'd like to hear what others think.


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post #19 of 32 Old 10-01-2008, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

The problem isn't with the size of the imaging chip itself but the associated processor that drives it. Remember the dithering and banding problems that plagued earlier generations of DLP chipsets? Those were solved with better outboard processors and higher bandwidths when TI moved to 1080p. With 4Kx2K the drive problems surface again. By comparison, one of the strengths of LCOS is that it's relatively easy to drive and most of the drive circuitry is placed on the backside of the imaging chip itself. Ignoring optical and scaling issues all that is needed for LCOS to move to 4k is a bigger chip. DLP on the other hand requires a new processing chip and a way to address the requirement of a 4x increase in bandwidth between the two chips.

Unfortunately, TI is pretty stingy with R&D money unless it's related to buying new fab technology. So I would expect them to fund this development only if there is a viable return on investment. Does anyone want to speculate on how many 4k DLP machines could be sold? I would think that movie houses that already paid to install 2k d-cinema machines would be reluctant to upgrade any time soon so they would probably only be selling to houses that haven't yet switched to d-cinema and most of those would probably be content to go to 2k rather than spend more on 4k. Anyway that's just my guess but I'd like to hear what others think.

Do disagreement but perhaps this is exactly the time as the transition speeds up and theaters are looking for ways to stand out. The issue is the cost of the devices for struggling theaters.


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post #20 of 32 Old 10-01-2008, 12:36 PM
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ti will be for sure not that stupit to kills ther very good deals
they do with existing 2k pr. all over.

and i am sure ti will not make any bigger dmds as the cinema
1.2" dmd.
till they found a way to shrink a 4k chip to this size we will not see any 4k dlp pr.

also the drive elektronics are not that easy to do.
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post #21 of 32 Old 10-01-2008, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

TI will have to shrink the panel.

Alan, it looks like you're right. I dug into this a little and was surprised to see that the 2k DLP chip is about the same as JVC's 4k (~1.2").

So to recap it looks like these are all factors that would suggest that TI won't go to 4k anytime soon:
  • Chip Size of the Imager
  • Complicated Drive Requirements
  • Lack of ROE needed to justify the R&D expense
  • Undercuts 2K Investments and sales
  • Probably too expensive for most theaters that haven't already gone to 2K


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post #22 of 32 Old 10-02-2008, 02:40 PM
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the reality is that for the "world" of theatres... there is no need to go any higher than 2K.

99.999999999999999999% of the population would not notice the difference between 2 and 4K. and of those that did... 99.9999999999999% would not care.

So that leaves the people in this forum. we can go on and on about what we want to see, but the reality for TI, is that there is no benefit to introduce or even talk about R and D on any 4K solution. as soon as you talk about the upgrade, buying stops on the current model, and more importantly,

Now the commercial world will always want higher res for NOC's and simulators, etc.

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post #23 of 32 Old 10-02-2008, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Yes, that is how JVC used to build their pseudo 8k projector. Now that they have developed a high contrast true 8k panels they could develop a true 8k projection system for Super Hivision.

Actually they used to build a 4 channel projector, according to the material I saw describing a demo in Japan earlier this year (and I assume IBC, as the material was in announcing the IBC demo), they had moved two stacked and off-set commercial units. Will check out the CEATEC release you mentioned.
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post #24 of 32 Old 10-02-2008, 05:41 PM
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jvc show at ceatec today in japan a 35mil. pixel pr.

with a 2000 watt xenon they can do only 1200 lumen so that seams to
be a 4 chip desingn as the claim over 1 mil. :1 cr.

they show only a still image no motion and the screen cant be very big as
it have only this 1200 lumen.
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post #25 of 32 Old 10-02-2008, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

the reality is that for the "world" of theatres... there is no need to go any higher than 2K.

99.999999999999999999% of the population would not notice the difference between 2 and 4K. and of those that did... 99.9999999999999% would not care.

So that leaves the people in this forum. we can go on and on about what we want to see, but the reality for TI, is that there is no benefit to introduce or even talk about R and D on any 4K solution. as soon as you talk about the upgrade, buying stops on the current model, and more importantly,

Now the commercial world will always want higher res for NOC's and simulators, etc.

The Irony is that 4k is better for 3-D due to the wide angle of vision requirements. So if they want to do 3-D, then they will have to move towards 4k.


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post #26 of 32 Old 10-02-2008, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

99.999999999999999999% of the population would not notice the difference between 2 and 4K. and of those that did... 99.9999999999999% would not care.

I think some will notice that the focus is better. IIRC d-cinema encourages a slight defocusing to hide SDE and this seems to be the case with every d-cinema presentation that I've sat through. But even this minority that did notice a sharper picture, would probably not care.


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post #27 of 32 Old 10-02-2008, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

jvc show at ceatec today in japan a 35mil. pixel pr.

with a 2000 watt xenon they can do only 1200 lumen so that seams to
be a 4 chip desingn as the claim over 1 mil. :1 cr.

they show only a still image no motion and the screen cant be very big as
it have only this 1200 lumen.

1200 lumens and 1M:1 cr? Where do I sign up


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post #28 of 32 Old 10-03-2008, 02:22 AM
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here a part of the org.press release from sept.25.

Highlights of JVC Exhibit - JVC booth number: 1A05 in Hall 1
■ Visual Corner
- Demonstration of 8K high 1.1 million to 1 contrast ratio
D-ILA projector using newly-developed
8K 8192x4320 (35..4 Megapixel) D-ILA device

- 200 inch theater featuring DLA-SH4K 4096x2400 (10 megapixel) D-ILA projector (tickets to be distributed)

- Home theater based on the new DLA-HD750 Full HD Home Theater D-ILA projector (tickets to be distributed)
- JVC's original Display technologies such as real time conversion of normal 2D video into 3D video technology demonstration and more.
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post #29 of 32 Old 10-03-2008, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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When 4k is a long way off TI will have to focus on 3D and contrast. Perhaps TI can implement a DI for use in Digital cinema. Someone posted about a fluid dynamic iris. The DI operation could be precoded in the source so that performance is optimal and artifacts minimal. I guess this will happen before lasers are powerful enough. It is better not to send out light that you do not want than to block light dynamically as a band aid.

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Do you know if the JVC demo consisited of a two projector system with a total of four panels or a single projector with 4 panels. Last year the implementation was the former and at 4k.

I guess JVC is still trying to catch up being able to control a 35Mpixel device with signals and video processing.

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post #30 of 32 Old 10-03-2008, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

- Demonstration of 8K high 1.1 million to 1 contrast ratio
D-ILA projector using newly-developed
8K 8192x4320 (35..4 Megapixel) D-ILA device

Very impressive, this is the sort of "one-off" R&D type of thing that I wish TI would do for DLP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Perhaps TI can implement a DI for use in Digital cinema. Someone posted about a fluid dynamic iris. The DI operation could be precoded in the source so that performance is optimal and artifacts minimal.

A source coded iris aperture for a DI is a great idea Mattias! I think you should patent that one.


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