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post #1 of 91 Old 11-15-2008, 01:53 AM - Thread Starter
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There doesn't appear to be much discussion on this D-Cinema forum about the two competing 3D formats - RealD and Dolby. In one thread, CINERAMAX stated that Dolby 3D blew RealD out of the water at a Showeast shootout but that's about all I can find. RealD is far ahead of Dolby in theater hardware installs and here in Denver I can only see a 3D presentation in the RealD format. I don't want to fly to LA just to A/B the two systems, so.....has anyone seen the same film in both formats?

Since Dolby 3D does not require the silver screen that polarization needs, some of the reflection problems are solved. But the spinning color wheel that Dolby requires might cause other problems. Dolby glasses are very expensive at the moment; polarized glasses are cheap. Possibly the main reason that ReadD is ahead in total installs?

CINERAMAX, could you comment on the shootout you saw and how either system compares with a two PJ setup?
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post #2 of 91 Old 11-16-2008, 12:41 PM
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This was a breakfast event that we saw from the back of the room on a 25 wide screen, NEC had some system, Christie had reald with single projector and Barco had dual 2000's with the dolby. Everyone coming out commented that the dolby barco had the best least artifact affected image.

See the comparison below.
LL
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post #3 of 91 Old 11-17-2008, 07:57 PM
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2009: The Year of 3D
Submitted by Nick Dager on Mon, 11/10/2008 - 11:46.

* Big Picture
* Home Page

The coming year promises, in many ways, to be a make or break year for digital 3D in movies. Current plans call for Hollywood to release 25 or more 3D titles in 2009. That amounts to a 3D release every other week, although the studios being the studios it might be more appropriate to preview this as the Summer of Too Many 3D Movies All at Once. That discussion is for another day. Can all of these movies possibly succeed? Will 3D prove to be a fad, yet again? In my mind, before we can answer those two questions there are a long list of other questions that must be answered first. Here are ten questions we will explore in depth in our yearlong series of Special Reports - 2009: The Year of 3D.

1. Do 3D movies really generate more revenue at the box office?

Much has been made of the notion that 3D movies today automatically generate more revenue. We've repeated it many times in Digital Cinema Report. Is it true or are there other factors? And do the added expenses of 3D outweigh the added income? Just as important, when the public can choose from a selection of 3D movies at the same time, which ones will they choose? And won't boil down to the old adage that content is king?

2. How much more expensive are 3D movies to make?

It is taken as a given that producing in 3D is more expensive that producing 2D. How much more expensive? What adds to the cost? Will these costs come down as 3D becomes mainstream?

3. Some top cinematographers insist quality 3D can be shot with film cameras. Are they right or wrong?

I recently interviewed Daryn Okada, a veteran Hollywood cinematographer and the current president of the American Society of Cinematographers. He has yet to shoot a feature film digitally and told me that he believes it would be possible to shoot a better 3D product in film than digitally? Do all cinematographers agree with that? What are the facts?

4. What makes shooting in 3D difficult and how hard is it to learn?

When you study the production values of a project like last year's U23D it seems that every kind of shot in a filmmakers' toolkit is possible in 3D. Is that true? If not, what production tools are needed? What, if any, additional challenges are presented when a scene is 3D?

5. Have scripts changed because of 3D? Do they need to change?

Thankfully we seem to moving quickly past the time when 3D means the sort of pie-in-your-face moments that are more typically (and properly) the province of theme parks. Referring, again, to U23D there were times when all the 3D perspective did was give you the sense that you were actually onstage with the band. For me, that heightened the experience immeasurably and was all I need to find 3D preferable to 2D. Once the creative community fully understands the possibilities that 3D allows, storytelling will undoubtedly evolve into something we can only start to imagine today.

6. What technology, if any, is currently missing from the overall 3D workflow of production and post-production?

Referring again to U23D, I toured the facilities of 3ality, the company that made the movie, and saw the interesting combination of off-the-shelf and proprietary tools that were used to edit the project. Pace Technologies also has a set of proprietary 3D tools it has developed and perfected in real-world settings. Both companies hope to sell or license some of these tools to the market. What other tools are needed? Who will develop them?

7. Does 3D change sound in movies? If so, how?

Ask companies like Dolby this question and you get a resounding yes. Other companies are developing audio tools for 3D as well. What's in the pipeline and when will new ideas come to market?

8. Which glasses are really more cost-effective: disposable or re-usable?

Recent articles have raised the point that there are ghosting effects in at least some of RealD's disposable 3D glasses. Yet some exhibitors still balk at Dolby's approach, which is to offer more expensive, reusable 3D glasses. What are all the pros and cons of both approaches? Are there other ideas for 3D glasses out there?

9. How soon will we see widespread 3D systems in the home?

The idea of 3D in the home isn't even an issue of if versus when; home 3D systems are available now. The Disney Channel aired the Hannah Montana concert on television earlier this year. As we will report in our next issue JVC and Sensio are currently working together on a 3D home system set to be ready for market next year. But the most important question is this one:

10. What do professionals in production, post-production and exhibition need to know to compete in a world dominated by 3D content?

The next few years will see growing demand for technology to create 3D movies and other content and people who understand what is a new visual language
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post #4 of 91 Old 11-17-2008, 08:00 PM
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DAY ONE - Monday, December 1, 2008
Event Hours: 8:30am - 6:30pm

9:00am
Opening Remarks - Bob Dowling, Conference Chairman

9:15am - 10:00am
Opening Keynote Presentation - Jeffrey Katzenberg, Chief Executive Officer and President of Dreamworks Animation Inc.
10:00am - 10:45am The Business Case for 3D
Presenter: Charlotte Jones, Senior Analyst, Film & Cinema, Screen Digest
Known for her industry report, The Business Case for 3D, Ms. Jones will set the stage for the day and establish the baseline for the 3D marketplace,demystify the smoke and mirrors surrounding 3D and discuss what¹s in the horizon.
11:15am - 12:00pm Panel Session Topic - Learning A New Language:
Telling Stories In Three Dimensions
In entertainment it always begins and ends with the story. With the advent of 3D technology the story tellers can transform the audience into the emotional experience as never before. Sony Image works will introduce attendee¹s to the newest form of creative expression: 3D story telling.
12:00pm - 12:30pm Special Lunch Presentation
Eric Brevig, Director, Journey to the Center of the Earth
Charlotte Huggins, Producer, Journey to the Center of the Earth
Discussion lead by David Cohen, Associate Editor, Features, Variety
12:30pm - 1:30pm Networking Lunch
1:30pm - 2:15pm Panel Session Topic - Let¹s Talk about the Issues from a Distribution Point of View
Entertainment is always about the product and how to get it to the consumer. Digital delivery offers theater owners and all other venues virtually immediate access to entertainment products from around the world. Until the cost of the digital build out is reconciled the film distributors and theater owners will have to wait on 3D, but the content makers are lining up to release more and more exceptional 3D product. It is happening. How soon will it be fully functional is the question.
2:15pm - 3:00pm

Panel Session Topic- Alternate Programming in Theaters
Movie theaters are simply auditoriums for the consumer entertainment experience. With the advent of digital entertainment and the addition of 3D capability, theaters will be able to offer, sports, operas, broadway and every conceivable form of entertainment from anywhere in the world. The local theater will potentially become the world wide entertainment hub.
4:00pm - 4:45pm Panel Session Topic - The Impact of 3D On the Future of Gaming
Gaming is the ultimate hands on experience. All entertainment is moving rapidly to interactive platforms and games lead the way. Gamers are the fastest to create in the leading edge technology and they will be the first to adapt to the rising interest in 3D in game environments.
4:45pm Evening Networking Reception - Sponsored by: Dolby & NEC


DAY TWO - Tuesday, December 2, 2008
Event Hours: 8:30am - 4:15pm

9:00am Opening Remarks - Bob Dowling, Conference Chairman
9:15am - 10:00am Opening Keynote Presentation - David Hill, A.M., Chairman and CEO, Fox Sports Television Group
10:00am -
10:45am

Panel Session Topic - Will 3D Win Over Wall Street: Where is the 3D Market and Just How Big is it?
Wall street even at the most challenging times is always looking for profitable businesses. It is said entertainment is recession proof and if 3D puts more consumers in the theater, for longer periods of time the net result will be an increase in business, something Wall Street is passionate about.
11:15am - 12:00pm

Panel Session Topic Broadcast TV Who is Leading the Pack?
In February ¹09 all households will convert to digital acquisition of television. The reality is however that the difference will not be apparent to the consumer, at least not until something changes that is able to capture the interest of the consumer. 3D capable TVs will do just that. All sports when broadcast in 3D take the fan into the action as never felt before. The experience of seeing the game will be replaced by being "in" the game.
12:00pm - 12:30pm

Special Lunch Presentation - Jim Cameron, Director
Vince Pace, Founder & CEO, PACE
12:30pm - 1:30pm Networking Lunch
1:30pm - 2:15pm

Panel Session Topic - Alternate Uses for 3D; Advertising In Theaters and in TV
When anything new comes along the advertiser is always the first to figure out how to exploit it, so too with 3D. The consumer will be looking for more and better ways to enjoy their new 3D enabled television sets and the wise advertiser will convert their messages into a 3D format that will transform the message into a never before felt reality. With 3D capable theaters the ability to display commercials in 3D is sure to raise interest as well.
2:15pm - 3:00pm

Panel Session Topic - Post Production Issues
When the photography is finally in the computer is the time many films really begin. Scenes change, moods change, chronology is switched and emphasis re directed. Post production on any film is in many ways film making itself but in 3D the challenges are far greater. In 3D the director has depth to deal with, focus to alter and transition to consider. The post production pros will discuss what the differences of 3D post are and how a film director and editor can create a completely different and unique film in 3D.
3:30pm - 4:15pm

Featured Session - 3D Futurists Panel
3D is a creative application of digital media. It is beginning to take hold in America's movie theaters as they rapidly build out their digital capabilities. Digital is also making early stage entries into the home in games, video and live broadcast. The question is will 3D penetrate every form of entertainment? Will all of what is offered in film, video, games and television use 3D the same as we experience things in real life? Will it make a difference in the experience, will it always require glasses and will a new breed of creator evolve that will utilize the technology of 3D to create a whole new form of entertainment?


These and many other questions will be discussed by our final panel: the future. We will hear the views and opinions of several 3D pioneers and find out how they see this very new and very exciting technology going into the next decade and beyond.






4:15pm Closing Remarks
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post #5 of 91 Old 12-26-2008, 10:59 PM
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I see a lot of bad info about this, so I just wanted to post some fact and a little opinion. I will just give some technical details about the two systems. I have been involved with setups of both Real D and Dolby 3D so I don't want to get into a better/worse discussion.

Both systems use the identical projectors. As far as I know, all of the current installs are using NEC, Barco, or Christie projectors. All are 2K D-Cinema DLP projectors, and most are 6K lamp setups to get as much light as possible. I have been in at least two trying to get by on a 4.5K but it is not enough on the older projectors. There are some newer installs using the smaller DLP chip (1.7 inch vs 2.1 inch) that even though limited to a 4.5K lamp can put out as much 3D light as the older 6K's thanks to being able to use the entire chip in 3D mode which the larger chip projectors can't due to speed limitations. Both Real D and Dolby 3D alternate eyes at 3 times frame rate. The projector settings are basically identical in this regaurd. So in 1/24 of a second, you see left eye 3 times and right eye 3 times. This means the projector is actually showing 144 frames per second. Think of it as having a 3 blade shutter for each eye in film projectors. The newer small chips can do this frame rate for all 2 million pixels, the older projectors cannot. In effect, we get about 2/3 of the light in 3D mode because of this issue. TI is working to improve this though.

In Real D the image is projected through an active LCD "Z-Screen" that alternates between right hand and left hand circular polarization at the 144 hz rate following a sync signal from the projector. The Dolby system has the filter wheel mounted between the lamp and the integrater rod. The wheel has 1/2 filtering for left eye, and the other half filtering for right eye. It uses the same sync signal from the projector to drive it at the same 144 hz or 4320 rpm. The filters are a multi layer interference filter that splits all three primaries into narrower bands of red, green, and blue. The glasses have matching filters to separate the two images. The Real D glasses use the matching circular polarizers to split the two images. Since the Dolby system is using different colors, the screen can be white, where the Real D has to hold polarization which requires the silvered screen. The two systems are actually very close in light output. The filters in Dolby split the light in half, plus a little total loss, and the Z-screen also does about the same in that regaurd. Then you are also only showing each eye for a little less than 1/2 the time, as well as watching it through glasses. The high gain of the silver screen does give a peak brightness gain for Real D but at the cost of a little less light on the edges. There are actually some Dolby 3D sites that went with a lower gain silver screen to make enough light due to using a larger screen than recomend. Real D color corrects for the glasses and Z-Screen by shooting the colors through the glasses with a separate preset in the projector for 3D. The Dolby system is a bit more complex as the color shift of the two eyes is different so the colors are corrected in the server by shooting the colors through the glasses again, but for each eye separately.

I have seen both systems, but I will not state preference. I will state that the color wheel does not make for any artifact that is different than the alternating of eyes of any sequential frame 3D system. Even shutter glasses at the same 144 hz frame rate will have this same artifact. And most shutter glasses operate at only double frame rate, or 96 hz which gives a more noticeable jutter on pans. Unlike a single chip DLP projector with a color wheel, the projector is always giving all 3 primaries to one eye in all systems. The three only truely differ in how they are separated at the viewer. Real D and Dolby use passive glasses. Dolby and shutter glasses can use a white screen. Shutter glasses need batteries and electronics in them. There are differences in ghosting and such, but I will let others talk about that.

Dual projector 3D is superior than any single projector setup. I have seen polarized systems and Dolby Infitec filtering with dual projectors and the results are stunning. You don't get double the light, you get over triple, and you get both eyes showing the new frame in sync, so it makes for a much smoother image on fast motion. This is true for any form of splitting the two eyes. In most cases, the cost of two projectors is considered prohibitive. When using the older large chip projectors though, it also has the huge advantage of using the whole chip, as well as having the 6K lamps. Light output is no longer a problem. I think 3D should be dual projectors for this reason.

I also agree that this coming year will really show if 3D is here to stay this time. I watched some of "Hondo" in Dolby 3D. This was shot in the early 50's. This actually had some of the most pleasing 3D I have seen. It was more like just watching a real scene out in front of you. The depth was natural and the big sky outdoor shots looked amazing. 3D is not new, it has just become a bit more friendly to show thanks to digital. Dual film polarized 3D looked great a long time ago. That is how IMAX did it for a long time, but now even IMAX is going digital for the ease and reduced cost, even using dual projectors it is a huge savings over the dual strip film.

I don't think 3D will ever be the only way to make a movie, but if enough good movies can be made in 3D it just may work it's way out of being a gimick this time. On the other hand, if the movies are not good, this coming year could kill 3D yet again. It is up to the content as usual. As we have seen over and over, you can make a great movie with a 1.33 aspect black and white picture and mono sound. Great image quality, effects, and sound can all enhance a good movie, but they can't make a bad movie good. The same goes for 3D. If a movie is bad, throwing 3D at it won't fix it. In the 20's, sound was a gimick. In the 30's, color was a gimick, in the 50's/60's 3D and widescreens where both gimicks. Widescreens caught on, 3D didn't. We still have two aspect ratios though, 1.85 and 2.39. So maybe 3D will be the Cinemascope of the future?? Who knows just yet.
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post #6 of 91 Old 12-26-2008, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GXM View Post

There are some newer installs using the smaller DLP chip (1.7 inch vs 2.1 inch)

Correction it's 0.98inch vs 1.2inch. Nice to know you GMX, i'm also in D-cinema field in south east asia
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post #7 of 91 Old 12-28-2008, 09:03 PM
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Your are correct, I had the wrong dimensions.
It is a little funny that the 3D talk ended up on the other thread which was about aspect ratio.

My main comment about "fact" was that people automatically equate a filter wheel with some bad artifact in the picture. Color wheel single chip projectors can have issues if not done well, but the wheel used for Dolby 3D does not. My home projector is a single chip with a 5x wheel and I have no issues with it. I know I can't afford a 3 chip so I looked at many before I chose. 3x color wheels stink.

I recently worked on a very high end "home theatre" with an NEC NC800 pj fed from a Dolby server. They also upgraded the sound system to a Dolby CP650. The home owner does want to go 3D, but the Dolby wheel system won't fit inside the 800 yet. He certainly does not want a silver screen, so he will likely get shutter glasses for now. We did test a few different ones at our office, but they all seem to ghost worse at triple flash. I was not in on the testing of the glasses, so I don't know which ones they were trying. Which ones do you feel work best at triple flash? With the money in this room, cost is not a problem.
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post #8 of 91 Old 12-30-2008, 09:11 AM
 
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It is to my understanding that as far as the difference to theater owners is:

RealD = special screen and cheap glasses

Dolby 3D = regular screen and expensive glasses.
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post #9 of 91 Old 01-02-2009, 12:06 AM
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At last report, the Dolby glasses are down to about $25 each, maybe a little less in quanity. Still too much to give away, but not as insane as they were. The lenses are the problem, they are currently glass with evaporated metal coatings. They are working on a plastic version, but they are not happy with the consistency yet. The filters have to be very accurate narrow band to not have color shift and/or ghosting. Until they can meet the specs, they will not use the plastic lenses.

I can't wait to see both systems on the new 30,000 lumen full chip triple flash 3D Christie projectors. That is well over a 60% increase in light over the 25,000 lumen projector with 66% chip usage we had before. Assuming we could get 3.5 fl per eye, that goes up to 5.6 fl. That is huge. The spec has been 3.5 to 4.5 fl, measured with the projector running in 3D mode through all filters and through either eye of the glasses. They do want to raise this to 6 fl, but until now that limited the screen size too much. I have seen Real D at 10 fl and it looks too bright and strobing on pans was very annoying. 5 to 6 fl actually looked the best when limited to just 24 fps. Compare that with the IMAX 3D spec of 5 to 6 fl, Hmmm??
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post #10 of 91 Old 01-08-2009, 12:02 AM
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interesting Article
Who shows the best view of 3D?

news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9821709-39.html

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Originally Posted by 3d Movie Fan View Post

interesting Article
Who shows the best view of 3D?

news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9821709-39.html

Here's the link:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9821709-39.html
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post #12 of 91 Old 01-08-2009, 07:09 AM
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Quote:


"What's happening is a lot of 15- to 30-year-old people were staying home, watching movies on 72-inch plasma screens and not going to the movies the way I was going when I was a 15-year-old," Foster said. "We need technologies to get them to realize they can't replicate the movie-going experience (found) in a movie theater."

Quote taken from the end of the article. Will this keep us from getting quality ( shutter glasses ) 3D in our homes in the near future. Even if such a system were offered theres only a handful at most of movies in 3D would it be worth the expense to watch the same 5 movies over and over.
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post #13 of 91 Old 01-08-2009, 08:50 AM
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There are some very solid arguments for a shutter glass system for home.

Hondo, JTTCOTE, Beowulf, and the upcoming top three:

1. AVATAR (James Cameron) (Fox) - December 18
There can be NO doubt this is the most looked forward to 3D movie of 2009. Heck of ANY movie. I am placing this above STAR TREK, X-MEN ORIGINS: WOLVERINE and TERMINATOR: SALVATION on my own personal catch all list (includes 2D movies obviously) - so you know you better damn well see this movie. AVATAR is a movie of epic proportions set partially on the planet Pandora and starring their indigenous creatures the Na'vi. It seems that these creatures are able to allow humans to combine with them in some fashion (no spoilers here!) and tells the tale of environmentalism and survival. Sam Worthington leads a stellar cast. What a stunning Sci-Fi line up for next year! You really should not need convincing. Cameron is proven. He is one of the top, if not the best in the genre (Aliens, Terminator). He has a mega budget - and he delivers on them (Titanic). The man simply connects to his audiences and is a perfectionist - Did I say that he also invented the damn 3D cameras he is using too? Yes he did. Look for records to fall with this one.

2. MONSTERS VS. ALIENS (Dreamworks Animation) - March 27
With all the evangelism that Jeffrey Katzenberg has been doing for the 3D industry this movie had better be good. And it LOOKS good, given the trailers I have seen. MvsA centers on an invasion of aliens intent on evil when mankind calls on their only viable option: Monsters. The movie is a homage to middle 20th century monsters movies. The premise is delicious. Can they pull it off? Well they are definitely approaching 3D the right way - total commitment. All future tentpoles from DWA will be in stereoscopic 3D and by stating that up front, they are pulling the trigger to develop cutting edge systems to develop in the medium. They have some great talents behind the systems too and I believe they will be the studio to watch in coming years. Some great talent voicing the creatures too like SETH ROGEN and REESE WITHERSPOON.

3. DISNEY'S A CHRISTMAS CAROL (Robert Zemeckis) (Disney) - November 6
Zemeckis has had ample time to work on any motion capture issues he may have had while working on BEOWULF and this time around we are going to see some stunning effects. Add in Jim Carrey and Gary Oldman, probably the most beloved Christmas story of all time and 3D and it makes for a heckuva presentation. Disney has commited to only producing 3D movies for their animated tentpoles from now on as well. Ebenezer Scrooge (JIM CARREY) begins the Christmas holiday with his usual miserly contempt, barking at his faithful clerk (GARY OLDMAN) and his cheery nephew (COLIN FIRTH). But when the ghosts of Christmas Past, Present and Yet to Come take him on an eye-opening journey revealing truths Old Scrooge is reluctant to face, he must open his heart to undo years of ill will before it’s too late. Carrey plays SEVEN roles btw!


Not to mention BlueRays of all kinds of Sport events previously narowcasted.
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post #14 of 91 Old 01-08-2009, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GXM View Post

At last report, the Dolby glasses are down to about $25 each, maybe a little less in quanity. Still too much to give away, but not as insane as they were. The lenses are the problem, they are currently glass with evaporated metal coatings. They are working on a plastic version, but they are not happy with the consistency yet. The filters have to be very accurate narrow band to not have color shift and/or ghosting. Until they can meet the specs, they will not use the plastic lenses.

I can't wait to see both systems on the new 30,000 lumen full chip triple flash 3D Christie projectors. That is well over a 60% increase in light over the 25,000 lumen projector with 66% chip usage we had before. Assuming we could get 3.5 fl per eye, that goes up to 5.6 fl. That is huge. The spec has been 3.5 to 4.5 fl, measured with the projector running in 3D mode through all filters and through either eye of the glasses. They do want to raise this to 6 fl, but until now that limited the screen size too much. I have seen Real D at 10 fl and it looks too bright and strobing on pans was very annoying. 5 to 6 fl actually looked the best when limited to just 24 fps. Compare that with the IMAX 3D spec of 5 to 6 fl, Hmmm??

yes to bad they cant do 12 ftl in 3d.
i yesterday try some differnt ftl numbers as i may will upgrade my
barco dp 2000 pr.with some cr. improment.

my 7m 2d screen will have no problem when i go down 55% in light as i have
enough to trade to get arround 5500:1 cr. but than i can get at this big screen in 3d only about 8 ftl and this is
by far not what i like.

but the good thing is that 3d looks at my small 3m wide screen better
(not because of the more ftl this have other reasons and to time consuming
to discribe it here) and therefore i will do it may be.

but even at the small 3m wide screen in 3d i cant get more than 19 ftl in 3d with a new lamp to my eye as i use the christal eye shutter and it have only 24% light go true in shutter mode.
the barco dp 2000 with a new 4kw lamp have almost 19000 center lumens.

my tests results are easy.

i cant live anymore with less than 22 ftl in 3d and 2d.
to bad when you get used to such pr. you cant go back to normaly
home cinema pr.and than you dont have anymore much options.
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post #15 of 91 Old 01-08-2009, 03:29 PM
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So you bought in to this thinking no more second projector, and now you end up needing three instead, LOL.
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post #16 of 91 Old 01-08-2009, 05:25 PM
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I have watched several different 3D systems at light levels up to 10 fl per eye, and on a large screen, the motion judder from 24 fps became horrible at anything over 6FL. On smaller screens, you can go a bit brighter, but I enjoyed it at about 8 fl the most on anything over 20 feet wide. This is assuming of course the source was color timed knowing it was at these light levels. I don't personally know why it looks so bad with the light cranked up, but for many people, they all said the same thing, the strobing just jumps out. When you measure your 22 fl for 3D, is that one eye at a time through the glasses? Set to 4 fl with the glasses, both Real D and Dolby 3D measure well over 15 fl when you check a full screen white without the glasses.
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post #17 of 91 Old 01-08-2009, 09:29 PM
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CINERAMAX:

How is the distribution configured that would allow something like this to happen on the local level in 3 out of 4 theaters? Those who did not flip the glasses left with a very bad impression of RealD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1106374
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post #18 of 91 Old 01-08-2009, 11:51 PM
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This actually happens all too easy. I was involved in several installs for "Chicken Little". I was setting up the servers, Christie and Real D hired out people to set up the projectors, and when I did the final checks, 4 out of 5 I did had the eyes flipped. In those setups, there were 4 places the two streams could get crossed. Obviously, there are the two HD-SDI cables out of the server, and into the projector, that is two places. Then the projector 3D setup menu has a pick box for how the data from the dual links are to be used. The labels were very cryptic, and A-L/B-R was right before A-R/B-L. Then there is a tiny toggle switch on the back of the Z-Screen controller that just says "Phase" that will invert the left/right signal from the projector. There is even a fifth place, in the projector menus again, GPO output polarity, High=left or High=right. And a full week into the run I went into another theatre, and the projectionist complained that even though it looked okay in the theatre, you can't see any depth from the projection room. You guessed it, the eyes were flipped. I just hit the switch on the Real-D box and oh-my! 3D even from the booth. I know Disney and Paramount both included a test chart with the latest 3D shows for proper framing that also have boxes labled for left eye and right eye with instructions to test it before the shows. Hopefully that will reduce errors like this on 3D features. The live feed throws a whole different set of potential places for the flip to occur. I was not involved with any of the live shows, so I have no idea how the dual streams were packaged. They do need to stay in perfect sync, so it is easier to use a single packaged stream with the data for both eyes. This can also cause issues though, if not done right. There was cinema server system that used a 48 fps JPEG2K file for 3D with the image data alternating left eye/right eye. There evidently was no hard flag (or the server igored it) to say which frame was which eye. It just started first frame left, and assumed it would stay in sync. Guess what?? The player would occasionally drop a frame. This was rare, maybe once each day of 5 shows, at the worst. But... each time it dropped a frame, the eyes would not only flip, but you would be seeing non time coherent frames when they were flipped as well. Frame 453 right eye going to the left eye, and frame 454 left eye going to right eye. OUCH!! This should now be fixed with a hard flag in the data, and software in the server to keep coherent frames and correct eyes straight.
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post #19 of 91 Old 01-09-2009, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GXM View Post

This actually happens all too easy. I was involved in several installs for "Chicken Little". I was setting up the servers, Christie and Real D hired out people to set up the projectors, and when I did the final checks, 4 out of 5 I did had the eyes flipped. In those setups, there were 4 places the two streams could get crossed. Obviously, there are the two HD-SDI cables out of the server, and into the projector, that is two places. Then the projector 3D setup menu has a pick box for how the data from the dual links are to be used. The labels were very cryptic, and A-L/B-R was right before A-R/B-L. Then there is a tiny toggle switch on the back of the Z-Screen controller that just says "Phase" that will invert the left/right signal from the projector. There is even a fifth place, in the projector menus again, GPO output polarity, High=left or High=right. And a full week into the run I went into another theatre, and the projectionist complained that even though it looked okay in the theatre, you can't see any depth from the projection room. You guessed it, the eyes were flipped. I just hit the switch on the Real-D box and oh-my! 3D even from the booth. I know Disney and Paramount both included a test chart with the latest 3D shows for proper framing that also have boxes labled for left eye and right eye with instructions to test it before the shows. Hopefully that will reduce errors like this on 3D features. The live feed throws a whole different set of potential places for the flip to occur. I was not involved with any of the live shows, so I have no idea how the dual streams were packaged. They do need to stay in perfect sync, so it is easier to use a single packaged stream with the data for both eyes. This can also cause issues though, if not done right. There was cinema server system that used a 48 fps JPEG2K file for 3D with the image data alternating left eye/right eye. There evidently was no hard flag (or the server igored it) to say which frame was which eye. It just started first frame left, and assumed it would stay in sync. Guess what?? The player would occasionally drop a frame. This was rare, maybe once each day of 5 shows, at the worst. But... each time it dropped a frame, the eyes would not only flip, but you would be seeing non time coherent frames when they were flipped as well. Frame 453 right eye going to the left eye, and frame 454 left eye going to right eye. OUCH!! This should now be fixed with a hard flag in the data, and software in the server to keep coherent frames and correct eyes straight.


I had "assumed" that the data was hard coded in a single package and this had to be a National Issue before finding out 1 of the 4 theaters in the complex I was in was correct - while the other 3 were out of sync.

It does seem this needs to be made idiot proof as even with a 50/50 correct/incorrect odds, which should happen in random sampling, but from my 75/25, the additional posts in HD-Programming and even your 80/20, it appears far more than 50% were incorrect.
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post #20 of 91 Old 01-09-2009, 01:49 AM
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It's not that bad, must have worked quite well.


I wonder if the Dolby System with a Dolby Server has better countermeasures for this flipped polarity condition than a DoReMi with RealD?
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post #21 of 91 Old 01-09-2009, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GXM View Post

This actually happens all too easy....

I've been directly involved with stereo video for over 15 years. All it really takes to get it right, is someone who knows what it's supposed to look like doing a system check before showtime. As noted, there are a lot of places along the way that can get screwed up, but any one of them reversed can typically fix the problem that was seen last night.

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post #22 of 91 Old 01-09-2009, 06:05 PM
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Getting the eyes right for a D-Cinema feed all comes down to the installer with Dolby 3D-Cinema. The server will always have left eye on the A cable and right eye on the B cable, you need to get them right. The semi assembled systems used a green and a red cable so there was no way to mistake them. If you follow the installation manual, it has all the correct settings for the GPO polarity and a-left / b right settings etc. There is no phase switch on the system so that should not be an issue. The setup software for the filter wheel does have a wheel phase adjustment to sync the true switch point to the correct instant in time when the projector blanks between eyes, and the test pattern to set this has labled left eye / right eye boxes for adjusting it. The more accurate the wheel sync is, the shorter the blank time needs to be, so you can get a little more light out. And then there is shooting the colors for both eyes, and verifying the result. It would be dead obvious at that point if they got flipped on you. So playing a DCP package should never get flipped. But a live feed?? It could get switched anywhere. The theatre is at the mercy of the content provider to make sure they have the eyes correct. I would bet in this case, the feed was flipped to EVERYONE. The 25% right caught it early and fixed it. On the Dolby system, without a phase switch like the Real D, the only fixes would be to cross the cables or change the setting in the projector. Both of which will mess up the color correction as it is specific to the filter wheel for each eye as it comes out of the server. So a flipped DCP package would be screwed. But I assume a Live feed again would have to be different. I don't think there is a way to play out a feed as it is ingested so the server is likely not going to be doing the color correction for that. For non DCP 3D feeds, Dolby uses a different box. If your 3D feed is not coming from a Dolby server (Or Doremi now that it has been licensed to use Dolby 3D) then you need a Dolby/Cinetal (I hope I spelled that right) dual stream color corrector which takes the two HD-SDI streams from the source and does the correction for the eyes on the way to the projector. So the 2 eye signals could be crossed before that box without messing up the color correction. That box is normally used when the 3D feed is coming from a computer, sync'd VCR's, a QuBit, etc. So I guess it would be a natural to use for live feeds as well. I will have to ask around if anyone has done a live 3D feed using Dolby/Infitec 3D on a single projector. I am pretty sure someone has done it using the dual projector setup, but then no extra correction is needed as each proj just has the colors shot through it's proper filter.
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post #23 of 91 Old 01-10-2009, 02:45 AM
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Projectionists from filmtech forum said: Dolby3D is better than RealD for theater (Dolby3D from two projectors much better. I can compare only my expirience when have seen "Bolt" with shutter glasses vs Dolby3D/Infitec. Imo, Dolby3D was better, but i need compare more movies

To enjoy 3D games and movies in home today using LC shutter glasses need to buy Samsung or Mitsubishi DLP 3D (120Hz) RPTV's or projectors like DeptQ,
Barco, Christie. Also Viewsonic anounced on CES2009 new 3D XGA (200Lumen, 2000:1) projector at $1499.

Regards LED(RGB)DLP(120Hz) possible to make active and passive projection for any types of glasses:
1. Active for shutter glasses (realised)
2. Passive for Dolby3D - emulation spectral Infitec filter by RGB LED
3. Passive for linear or circular polarisation - http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7325957.html

I love HMD solution like this one:



the piSight Sensics is a panoramic HMD, with a field of view up to 180°, and up to 4200×2400 pixels per eye ! It is made up of several OLED 800×600 displays (built by eMagin).
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post #24 of 91 Old 01-10-2009, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
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The 25% right caught it early and fixed it.

So you believe that in the theater complex I was in, 1 caught it early and fixed it while the other 3 theaters they just left it alone for the entire movie and told people to flip their glasses over if they wanted
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post #25 of 91 Old 01-11-2009, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
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So you believe that in the theater complex I was in, 1 caught it early and fixed it while the other 3 theaters they just left it alone for the entire movie and told people to flip their glasses over if they wanted

No, that is what *you* believe (or suspect.) Unless the left/right sequence detection is random in the theater (not a very good situation, and obviously not the desired result) what no one here knows is why they would fix it for one house and not the others.

I wonder what "regular" (non-live) 3D looked like the next day in those theaters...
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post #26 of 91 Old 01-14-2009, 06:01 AM
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No, that is what *you* believe (or suspect.) Unless the left/right sequence detection is random in the theater (not a very good situation, and obviously not the desired result) what no one here knows is why they would fix it for one house and not the others.

I wonder what "regular" (non-live) 3D looked like the next day in those theaters...

ASSUMING (big mistake) there was anyone half technical dto do the switch, they should have at least put up the framing test pattern from the server, and all the patterns since Beowulf have had something that shows left eye / right eye. Due to the issues with eyes being flipped, I know most booth techs (maybe not the normal proj.) will put the glasses on and check it.

I did not see the game, and the sample was too small, so it was a total guess. If it was truly 75% flipped, it would make sense that the feed was not as expected from the people who set it up. If it was 50/50 (or better correct)then it just may have been carelessness by the installers. Since Beowulf, I would say no new local installs have been wrong for D-Cinema around L.A., can't speak about areas I have not been in. I was not involved in the live feeeds yet, so I don't even know what distribution they used.
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post #27 of 91 Old 02-22-2009, 07:13 PM
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Hi guys... new to the forum here and probably will do a lot of "listening in". But I did want to mention that I have seen a few Real-D shows, and I saw Hondo in Dolby and I preferred the look of the Dolby 3D over Real-D. The only real objection I had to the Dolby presentation was the reflected glare inside the glasses. No way around that I suppose. I kept seeing a reflection of my eyeballs in the upper part of each lens and that was distracting. It would be nice if they could vacuum coat a non-glare layer on the inside of the lens - although that would probably result in additional light loss to the eyes.

It occurred to me that because the cost of the Dolby glasses is so high, perhaps Dolby and the theatre companies should consider selling them to the patrons as an additional option to recycling them (perhaps market them with a special colored frame for identification purposes). That way Dolby could continue using the superior glass lenses and theatre owners could make a little return on their investment. And they'd get a devoted audience, as purchasers would be more inclined to return to see other 3D movies at theatres that have the Dolby system installed if they owned their own set of pricey Dolby glasses.

Food for thought...
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post #28 of 91 Old 02-22-2009, 10:18 PM
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RealD is doing a lot better in terms of theater installations and in my opinion their website is better made. The RealD website shows 817 RealD theaters for the United States, 89 RealD theaters for California, 55 RealD theaters for Florida, 46 RealD theaters for New York, 22 RealD theaters for New Jersey, and 61 RealD theaters for Texas. For comparison the Dolby website shows 109 Dolby 3D theaters for the United States, 32 Dolby 3D theaters for California, 5 Dolby 3D theaters for Florida, 2 Dolby 3D theaters for New York, 0 RealD theaters for New Jersey, and 5 Dolby 3D theaters for Texas.
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post #29 of 91 Old 02-23-2009, 01:49 AM
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In reality the xpand is a better pair of glasses and should be used for BelAir Type systems.

The reason RealD is more popular is A) way cheaper decent performance B)They were very aggressive in initial concessions.
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post #30 of 91 Old 02-23-2009, 01:56 PM
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Have there been any tests of 3D using rear screen projection? Doable?
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