HD-SDI 1080P23.93 on a SIM2 HT5000 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Im having trouble with the output from a Teranex doing 480 to 1080P23.98 on a SIM2 HT5000. The D-Cine SIM2 division calls this projector the Pro5000.

The output from the Teranex is fine when displayed on other display devices. The projector however shows a picture that is 1/3 shifted off screen. This projector has no picture position adjustments for HD-SDI inputs.

SIM2 has not responded to repeated requests on this issue.

Does anyone here have any experience feeding a HT5000 at 1080P23.98 ?
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post #2 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 06:59 AM
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Chris,

Have you tried 1080sf23.98?
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post #3 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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yes, This does not work at all. No lock.. Also the Pro5000 does not list this as a supported format, which makes sense as sf is more of a tape format not a display format.

1080I59.94 works, but of course is not ideal..

Also, I noticed that my thread title said 23.94, this is obviously wrong, I meant 23.98...
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post #4 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 07:55 AM
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The problem is probably with the Teranex. The 1080p23.98 Teranex output does not work with a Barco DP100, but the 1080sf23.98 does. Several pattern generators with 1080p23.98 output display properly with the DP100, so it seems fine. The p23.98 Teranex output seems to be borderline in meeting specs and works with some displays but not others.
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post #5 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Really ? Interesting..

Do you know which it works with and which it does not ? I know it works with Sony BVM's. My experience has been that the Teranex has extreme compliance with standards and that the display device is always at fault in subtle ways. At least thats so far in my experience.

What pattern generator worked where the teranex did not ?

Also what part of the spec does the trex not comply with if you know ?
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post #6 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I will submit a query to my friends at Trex.. I will also ask some guys who left Trex some time back who have some in depth knowledge of this subject..

Overall however I would still like to hear from anyone who has used 1080P23.98 successfully on the SIM2 HT5000 or Pro5000.
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post #7 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 09:20 AM
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It worked with an NEC DLP projector, although it was intermittent, and as I mentioned, not with the Barco DP100. Those are the only two I have experience with.

The three pattern generators with no 1080p23.98 problem going into the Barco DP100 are S&W HD Source, Omnitek, and a high end Japanese brand. Since the main format used by the Barco DP100 is 1080p23.98 in digital cinema, I am sure that there is nothing wrong at that end.

I discussed this with Teranex four years ago and they told me that there was nothing wrong with their 1080p23.98 output. Since the Teranex 1080sf23.98 output worked, and in this case the end result is identical, I did not pursue it further.
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post #8 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Even more interesting !

Good stuff... Thanx !

I have sent a few emails to the Teranex boys, we shall see. I have some contacts, no longer at Teranex, who can prob give me a good answer as well.

I wonder what in the world could technically be different in the bit stream ? This is interesting in itself. I thought 292M was 292M. If there is more then one way that the 23.98 format can exist then I would think that the display devices should allow for this and still display it. I still feel that the display manufacturer is the one who should help with this issue.

I wonder if the HT5000/Pro5000 implements this stuff in hardware or software updatable firmware ?

Good info, thanks again
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post #9 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 09:57 AM
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I will confirm the problem is with the Teranex. There is something incorrect with the timing of their 1080p 23.98
From the testing I have done I believe the width due to incorrect porch setting are the problem. I cannot get any projector or VP to lock onto the this out put. It is not on the input. I am suppose to send a projector to Teranex for testing as they said this would be a quick fix.
What ever is happening the Teranex is dropping frames every few seconds.

As a work around you can feed the 1080p 24 output form the Teranex and send it into the DVDO VP50 pro. You gain aspect ratio
and chroma delay feature by doing this and the pro tolerates the issue from the Teranex.
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post #10 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hmmmmmmm......

Looking at the standard,,, it seems the only thing that seems to have any effect that might shift my picture is the flag bits on the 4th word. These define horiz blanking and various things like 'start of active video' and 'end of active video'. Also the "F" bit is the difference between P and SF.

Again I think its up to the display to correctly render these flag bits.

I am still thinking that Teranex is implementing these correctly but that the display is not rendering them correctly.

But who knows. I would need a damn expensive protocol analyzer to sort this one out.

I have sent a email today to the HQ at Sim2 and I got a response right away that their offices are closed until the 7th and that I will get a response once they reopen. I would imagine that they have someone who can sort this out.
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post #11 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi Alan !!!!!!! Been a while it has

I did the above post while you were doing yours...

But I think it makes sense in your description of the problem... The bits I describe define porch...

Well we will see what comes from Trex and Sim2...

Alan are you using the newest Teranex hardware, the "P4" stuff ?

Maybe I can get the Teranex guys together with the Sim2 guys and work it out.


Well Alan, I hope your doing well. I am still doing good. So far so good
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post #12 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 01:31 PM
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Hi Chris how have you been. Glad to hear from you.

I have yet to have one projector take the 24 output from the Tara without blanking out every few seconds.
What ever the problem I am sure it is off just enough to confuse the displays unless they have a very forgiving input which most FP do not.
On a few digitals the info screens reads 1920x1080@ 23.98 but the actual image width falls short of 1:1 mapping. I am sure it is the H porch that is incorrect.
I do have the latest P4.

I hope this can be fixed quick. Everything HT today is 1920x1080 24.
It took Blue Ray and HD DVD few trys to get it right.
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post #13 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The every few second blank out sounds like the difference between 24 and 23.98. Remember the output from a DVD is 23.98 cuz its coming from a 480 59.94, it does take BluRay to get real 24.

Or,,, the Teranex can do a demo mode where it blanks out every few seconds on formats you have not paid for. If you are paid up then you need to talk to them and get your keys fixed.

I have started a discussion with the guys at Teranex. I have sent in the suspicion that we are having a timing issue with a number of projectors.

I would bet that Teranex is outputting a "legal" signal per HD-SDI specs but that display devices are having trouble rendering it.. I did confirm with a friend in a post house that Teranex 23.98 is no problem with gear like VTR's and servers. Even Avid work stations seem to work ok with its output... Soooo it seems that displays are having the trouble.
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post #14 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I do gotta point out tho that even running 1080i59.94 output, upconversion from the Teranex is pretty amazing stuff.. I still want to eliminate the 3:2 tho and do 23.98.

Stupid question 101,,, what does the Sim2 produce from a 23.98 input ?.. IE does the DLP output really change at 23.98 ? or is there some internal conversion to some other frame rate ? I would hate to go through all this effort only to discover that the projector converts the 23.98 back to a p59.94 adding back in the 3:2... The Sim2 is not a DC 2K DMD engine..

Hmmmm another stupid question,,,

I wonder if the Teranex is producing 2048 rather then 1920. That might explain it.
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post #15 of 22 Old 12-30-2008, 08:50 PM
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DLP converts 23.98 to 47.95. Not sure what number Lcos projectors are doing but their refresh is much higher.

Im with odyssey, the issue is with the Teranex.
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post #16 of 22 Old 12-31-2008, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well it will be interesting ! I think its gonna be both and neither. I think the Teranex is doing something odd but legal per the HD-SDI spec. I also think that the projector should still render it because it is legal per the spec even tho it is odd.

A Sony BVM displays it just fine.

I think a Teranex is not normally used as a display driver and we are experiencing something most people don't see because it is hooked to gear like VTR's and post stuff. These flag bits might not even be looked at if your a VTR or server.

I wish i could see what the flag bits were for both the Teranex and the output of a S&W pattern generator doing 23.98. Im not quite clear on what are legal timings. I cant seem to find this part of the spec anywhere.

Sim2 seems VERY happy to help,, once the factory reopens after a long holiday after the 7th. Teranex has the support request, however it might take some days for this to go to the people who wrote the code for this.

We shall see.....

ANYone else who might have some insight into this, or knows more about the flag bits and legal timings please post, pvt message me or email.
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post #17 of 22 Old 12-31-2008, 03:23 PM
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Chris I have a few other HD SDI VPs that out put 23.98 and I can list at least 10 of the top FP that take it just fine. These same VPs have issues with the Teras 23.98.
odyssey has a DCI machine that cant take the Teras 23.98. I also feed the tra to a DPI via HD SDI with no luck. Add to this for the last year Ive changed video projectors like underwear and not a single one will take the taras 24.
I am sure there are a few devices out there as you mentioned that allow some play but something is off on the Tera and I am sure it is something just off far enough to trip most displays and video processors.
I plan to ship a projector next week to Teranex for testing.
Years ago 24 was an issue with everyone as first gen products served as a learning curve. 24 is now accepted by everything. The Tera is teh first product I have dealt with in years to have any trouble with 24 out and 9 out of every 10 displays will not take the signal.
Hopefully it is something they can clean up fairly quickly.
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post #18 of 22 Old 12-31-2008, 03:45 PM
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P and sF are very different in terms of line and frame timing. 23.98sF is 47.97i for purposes of timing. The only thing different from true 47.97i is the two video fields are captured as a progressive image weher as in true "i" there is a time displacement in the image capture between the fields.

23.98P or 24P is a true progressive signal. There only 24 frames versus 48 fields in sF.

I can tell you the Teranex products are fully SMPTE292 complient as far as 23.98sF goes. Like stated above we only use ours in a 23.98sF enviornment however I can run them at true 23.98P and 24P if needed. I would still suspect the projector. There quite a trail of prodcuts even on the broadcast side that did not implement sF properly. Nvidia is one recvent example I have come across.

23.98sF will long be the television standard. 24P is for the most part DCI. Anything mastered for BluRay is 23.98sf sourced.

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post #19 of 22 Old 12-31-2008, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

24P is for the most part DCI. Anything mastered for BluRay is 23.98sf sourced.

The Tera falls about 4 to 5 pixels short on width for perfect 1:1 mapping. Odyssey DCI Barco has trouble with this output & I bet his projector is fine. Is there more then one 1080p 23.94 standard?
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post #20 of 22 Old 12-31-2008, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

The Tera falls about 4 to 5 pixels short on width for perfect 1:1 mapping. Odyssey DCI Barco has trouble with this output & I bet his projector is fine. Is there more then one 1080p 23.94 standard?


No ther is only one official SMPTE standard. But 23.98 and 24P are not nearly as wide spread as 23.98sF. So there's a lot more inconsistant implementations.

As an engineer who has built and diagnosed many interface problems over the last few years, I find true P to be the least complex. sF is the tricky one especially if you don't have a background in classic NTSC television engineering. The computer engineering side has always favored progressive and rarely bothered with interlaced systems.

Believe me. I have personally trained several engineers at Silicon Graphics in the early 1990s about how NTSC sync generators are designed and why.

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post #21 of 22 Old 12-31-2008, 05:58 PM
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I forgot to mention that the Barco DP100 also works fine with 1080p23.98 HD-SDI output from two different moded BD players. It also has the problem with the Teranex p29.97 output, but works fine with sf29.97.

The HD-SDI input section of the Barco DP-100 is a "common part," either sourced or supplied by TI. The Christie DCI models should have the same design for this section and probably exhibit the same problem with the Teranex output. Again, although p and sf are different, what's on the screen is exactly the same and I just use the sf formats.
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post #22 of 22 Old 01-01-2009, 07:43 AM
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You really should get a hold of a waveform monitor that can read the SDI code to see if anything is invalid in the Teranex output bit stream.
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