Problems with Large Pro Cinema Stacks in Home Theaters? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 56 Old 03-12-2009, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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You fellows who are using big stacks (JBLsound4645 and Digital2004), what is your throw distance to your primary seating? The reason I ask is because the large stacks, being designed for long throws, are said to exhibit some strange issues in short throw situations. How does the stack resolve the issue of the relationship of distance between transducers and the throw distance? I would think that precise localization at home theater distances would be problematic. I also have heard that the big stack transducers comb filter each other and cause numerous problems at the crossover frequencies in short throw scenarios, but are not noticable in long throw situations. If the "home" theater is large enough, I would suspect that pro screen arrays designed for small cinemas would work fine. Just seems like the larger versions would bring problems. Tell us of more of your experiences with your systems.
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post #2 of 56 Old 03-12-2009, 10:33 PM
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Interesting question. I would like to hear the answers to this too.

David Budo
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post #3 of 56 Old 03-14-2009, 05:57 AM
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...I also have heard that the big stack transducers comb filter each other and cause numerous problems at the crossover frequencies in short throw scenarios, but are not noticable in long throw situations....

Comb filtering occurs with any speaker that uses physically separated drivers. Concentric driver topologies, like the KEF Uni-Q, tend to minimize the problem. Some loudspeaker manufacturers actually specify minimum seating distance to their products. As an example, take a look at a Klein & Hummel O410 product data sheet.

How close you can get to a particular loudspeaker and maintain good fusion between the drivers is a complex function of the radiator type, spacing and crossover frequency. You probably want to keep the "look angle" between mid and HF drivers to something like 15 degrees at your listening position.
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post #4 of 56 Old 03-15-2009, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

...I also have heard that the big stack transducers comb filter each other and cause numerous problems at the crossover frequencies in short throw scenarios, but are not noticable in long throw situations....

Comb filtering occurs with any speaker that uses physically separated drivers. Concentric driver topologies, like the KEF Uni-Q, tend to minimize the problem. Some loudspeaker manufacturers actually specify minimum seating distance to their products. As an example, take a look at a Klein & Hummel O410 product data sheet.

How close you can get to a particular loudspeaker and maintain good fusion between the drivers is a complex function of the radiator type, spacing and crossover frequency. You probably want to keep the "look angle" between mid and HF drivers to something like 15 degrees at your listening position.

Thank you for your reply. Hopefully, some folks who use these will chime in. I'd love to hear about their theaters and how they use these products.
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post #5 of 56 Old 05-09-2009, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

You fellows who are using big stacks (JBLsound4645 and Digital2004), what is your throw distance to your primary seating? The reason I ask is because the large stacks, being designed for long throws, are said to exhibit some strange issues in short throw situations. How does the stack resolve the issue of the relationship of distance between transducers and the throw distance? I would think that precise localization at home theater distances would be problematic. I also have heard that the big stack transducers comb filter each other and cause numerous problems at the crossover frequencies in short throw scenarios, but are not noticable in long throw situations. If the "home" theater is large enough, I would suspect that pro screen arrays designed for small cinemas would work fine. Just seems like the larger versions would bring problems. Tell us of more of your experiences with your systems.

Look into the "Professional Home Cinema" line of speakers and electronics. They were founded by legendary speaker designer Paul Hales and basically take the concept of pro sound and dynamics and apply it to speakers and electronics designed for home theatres (ie-much smaller venues and speaker to listener distances). They have that classic theatre sound, but with the edge taken off that virtually all pro stuff exhibits in a home environment. They still use horn loaded drivers and are ridiculously efficient, but use materials like beryllium that have an easier to take top end. I heard a couple of their set-ups while the Cream's Ginger Baker drum solo was demo'd. It was the most lifelike concert demo I've ever heard.
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post #6 of 56 Old 05-11-2009, 09:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

You fellows who are using big stacks (JBLsound4645 and Digital2004), what is your throw distance to your primary seating? The reason I ask is because the large stacks, being designed for long throws, are said to exhibit some strange issues in short throw situations. How does the stack resolve the issue of the relationship of distance between transducers and the throw distance? I would think that precise localization at home theater distances would be problematic. I also have heard that the big stack transducers comb filter each other and cause numerous problems at the crossover frequencies in short throw scenarios, but are not noticable in long throw situations. If the "home" theater is large enough, I would suspect that pro screen arrays designed for small cinemas would work fine. Just seems like the larger versions would bring problems. Tell us of more of your experiences with your systems.

You’ve forgotten to mention MKtheater as he uses JBL stage and surrounds in his basement home cinema.

My fronts are LCR are not cinema professional nor are the surrounds so you must have me mixed up with someone else? I use large diy JBL 4645 clone but that’s not original there are plenty around on this site that use 18” sub bass drivers.

Distance from front varies in this room, I might find away to improve the few feet ahead of where the sofa is at present, then again I might not.

The sub doesn’t have its own crossover yet as its filtered enough I mean how far can the LFE.1 track reach, 120Hz and that’s. Below performs fine. So at present its about 10 feet which is nothing compared to most cinema which is around 20 feet or more from the front row.

And as to when I get around to buying another second DCX2496 to run surrounds and third for sub bass with peace of mind, without worrying whether I’m going to blow the speakers into obliteration.

As for how the JBL 2240 performs well in the past 12 years its been fantastic a bit damn large LOL but that was aim to copy a small picture and its dimensions as near as possible.

Wouldn’t mind large pro cinema stage speakers, but there is the room size its not really possible to stack twin or single 15” bass bins along with HF large horns in 15 feet room without it looking unsightly.
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post #7 of 56 Old 05-11-2009, 03:44 PM
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Must be some home, to contemplate stacking two 30K ANSI Lumens Pro Cinema projectors, even Arnold Chase's place is only getting a CRT;-).
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post #8 of 56 Old 07-03-2009, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, it's been so long since I visited. Thanks for your replies, guys. JBL, forgive the mis-ID regarding what you use.

Scott, thank you for your tip. I want to take a closer look at that line.
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post #9 of 56 Old 07-04-2009, 09:07 AM
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Lovely coverage in the graphs...
LL
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post #10 of 56 Old 07-05-2009, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Lovely coverage in the graphs...


I'm liking what I see. I'm wondering what the price will be. The Acheron 80/100 cost $10,000 each. The Acheron Studios are intended for small venues, small theaters and studios.

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post #11 of 56 Old 07-06-2009, 12:11 AM
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when you combine many speakers in a stack, you create a line array.

you either create a good one... (like an actual pro or otherwise system designed as a line array) or a really crappy one. a really crappy one has interference, combing, and unnatural lobes throughout.


Something like the above mentioned meyer is not a line array. it is a pro system by a touring company that is making a more concentrated push into cinema and studios. A company i will note that i have used for the last 20 years and have always loved. (in a professional capacity, i do not have meyers at home. but i would take them in a second)

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post #12 of 56 Old 07-06-2009, 08:40 AM
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Dizzman,
I've only heard tremendous things about Danley and Meyer, but I wonder if one has the edge over the other. Both companies are very scientific and have created revolutionary designs in all areas of pro audio. Since you have a lot of experience in this area I was wondering if you have and experience with some of Danley's speakers? If so, how would you compare them to the Meyer speakers?

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post #13 of 56 Old 07-08-2009, 09:30 AM
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i have no experience with danley stuff.

the thing is, what are you looking to do? are you looking at a line array? or just using pro stuff?

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post #14 of 56 Old 07-08-2009, 05:52 PM
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Mark Seaton worked for/with Danley for a while you might ask him for some advice.

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post #15 of 56 Old 07-08-2009, 07:25 PM
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Well, I'm looking for speakers that can handle large dynamics for movies behind a screen, but I don't want to sacrifice sound quality for SPL. I need both to satisfy me. The room will be as large as an average sized cinema. Some have recommended line arrays, but most that I've seen that are commercial loud speakers.

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post #16 of 56 Old 07-09-2009, 07:51 AM
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Thanks Art. I'm actually going to call Mark soon. It takes too long to get a discussion going online and then I tend to forget questions over time.

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post #17 of 56 Old 07-09-2009, 07:52 AM
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Actually Art, a question. How loud do you listen to you prototype catalysts for those peaks in movies? Do you reach 105db at the seats?

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post #18 of 56 Old 07-09-2009, 10:03 AM
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i am a fan of pro gear, properly used. they are designed in such a way to be able to tear the top of your head off when needed, but witht he right amplification, can be remarkably subtle.

having said that, Mark seaton is really your best reference around here. His stuff is great from all i hear of and from what i know of him.

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post #19 of 56 Old 07-09-2009, 05:21 PM
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...The room will be as large as an average sized cinema. Some have recommended line arrays, but most that I've seen that are commercial loud speakers...

How large is a "cinema"?! Mcintosh has an excellent assortment of line arrays. Given enough power, they can also take your head off. The basic problem with large cinema stacks are the horns. Horns invariably have resonances caused by reflections in the throat that will color the sound. Some like the effect - some don't.
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post #20 of 56 Old 07-09-2009, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

How large is a "cinema"?!

L60' x W45' x H24'

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post #21 of 56 Old 07-10-2009, 06:03 PM
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Thanks. That sure isn't any Home Theater. For the typical (smaller) home theater, direct radiator type of loudspeakers generally give the best results. For the larger room (or where you sit well into the reverberant field), a Bessel Line Array like the Mcintosh XRT2K gives the better result. When you get into the really big rooms, like your 60 x 45 x 24, then the horns generally excel. Personally, I like the HPS 4000 product line in the big venue.
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post #22 of 56 Old 07-11-2009, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Actually Art, a question. How loud do you listen to you prototype catalysts for those peaks in movies? Do you reach 105db at the seats?

Yes and exceed usually only when guests are in however. Last night the boys and watched Valkyrie. I set it at reference level. No measurements since once set up I just use it. The seats felt like they were lifting off the floor at times.

I really would get in touch with Mark,not for his products necessarily but he is well the head /rosetta stone for pro audio and home theater.

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post #23 of 56 Old 07-11-2009, 01:55 PM
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Thanks Art. I definitely have plans to talk to Mark. Hopefully personally next year. My project is still not certain yet. It might take longer than expected for my investments to pay off with the economy the way it is now. Hopefully it doesn't last too much longer. If I can't do my project, I'll probably put together something along the size you've got.

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post #24 of 56 Old 07-11-2009, 03:40 PM
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My nostrils are twitching...........again.

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post #25 of 56 Old 07-11-2009, 03:46 PM
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Don't worry coldmachine. I'm not trying to waste everyones time. I know how you feel about that, and I find it annoying too. Just call me lucky(because I am)

Since I've got you here, what pro speaker brands would you use between the three choices?

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post #26 of 56 Old 07-14-2009, 08:52 AM
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What size room/ screen etc are you planning ? Please share some details for your build ideas etc.

Art

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post #27 of 56 Old 07-14-2009, 06:24 PM
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L60'(18.3m) x W45'(13.7m) x H24'(7.3m) = 64,800'^3(1832.3m^3)

Seating will consist of 5 rows of 10 with a 10'(3.05m) space between the side walls. Front row will be 25'(7.62m) from front wall and the back row 10'(3.05m) from rear wall. Each row will be 2'(0.61m) above each other. Total elevation 8'(2.44m). Each seat will have a total space of W2' 6"(0.762m) x L5'(1.5m) = 12' 6"^2(1.143m^2).

Seating ideas -

Irwin Signature or VIP

Pullman Redondo or Ventura with retractable arms

Stage under the screen: W45' x H2' 5" x D3' 10"

Side surrounds will start at 25'(7.62m) from front wall with an 8'(2.44m) space between center of each speaker.

Rear surrounds will start at 10.5'(3.2m) from side walls with an 8'(2.44m) space between the center of each speaker.

I have drawings I've done where I have measured angles for the minimum coverage.

Cinermax is trying to convince me to use a torus screen, but I'm leaning toward a SMX AT weave screen. Not sure yet. Still have to do research and check them out personally.

For the LCR, well I've already told you what my ideas are for them.

It will be atleast a couple of years before this project begins. I was hoping to start it at the begining of next year, but that's definitely not going to happen I feel kinda depressed sometimes, but I'm still gonna try to do it.

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post #28 of 56 Old 07-14-2009, 10:52 PM
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After loading the Depth FX enhancement 3D-like lut system on the Helene theater , it was demonstrated that the depth effect can be effectively added to a Barco SUPERKONTRAST SMX woven screen projected image, in fact SMX may have this at CEDIA.
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post #29 of 56 Old 07-15-2009, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

L60'(18.3m) x W45'(13.7m) x H24'(7.3m) = 64,800'^3(1832.3m^3)

Seating will consist of 5 rows of 10 with a 10'(3.05m) space between the side walls. Front row will be 25'(7.62m) from front wall and the back row 10'(3.05m) from rear wall. Each row will be 2'(0.61m) above each other. Total elevation 8'(2.44m). Each seat will have a total space of W2' 6"(0.762m) x L5'(1.5m) = 12' 6"^2(1.143m^2).

Seating ideas -

Irwin Signature or VIP

Pullman Redondo or Ventura with retractable arms

Stage under the screen: W45' x H2' 5" x D3' 10"

Side surrounds will start at 25'(7.62m) from front wall with an 8'(2.44m) space between center of each speaker.

Rear surrounds will start at 10.5'(3.2m) from side walls with an 8'(2.44m) space between the center of each speaker.

I have drawings I've done where I have measured angles for the minimum coverage.

Cinermax is trying to convince me to use a torus screen, but I'm leaning toward a SMX AT weave screen. Not sure yet. Still have to do research and check them out personally.

For the LCR, well I've already told you what my ideas are for them.

It will be atleast a couple of years before this project begins. I was hoping to start it at the begining of next year, but that's definitely not going to happen I feel kinda depressed sometimes, but I'm still gonna try to do it.

Wow, incredible room ! Of course ,I don't know what kind of home you have or the overall purpose of the theater but why the standard type theater seat rather than some of the nice comfortable recliner type seats ?

Art

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post #30 of 56 Old 07-15-2009, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
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Wow, incredible room ! Of course ,I don't know what kind of home you have

A true videohile's home, a cinema with a bedroom a kitchen and a living room attached.

Just kidding.

I say DBuud waits for the Next Gen Barco 4K...
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