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Old 04-13-2009, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I wanted to start a thread on deconstructing the picture quality of first run 3D content such as MVA. Monster Vs. Aliens is the Game Changer in 3D cinema, Jeffrey Katzenberg was right the pundits were wrong, not only Hollywood but the entire film making community will forever be changed by the aftermath of MvA.

I had a chance to compare this movie in IMAX and RealD Ghostbusted (stereoscopic crosstalk cancellation process) and must say that it appears to me that the RealD presntation won.

I want to make this thread for 3D expert viewers to comment on what they are seeing and hopefully act as feedback to the ACS and DGA which in a recent NATO article were compared of attempting NASCAR level driving with Learners Permits.

I want to learn and establish a proper Lexicon to critique these films and discourse intelligently in terms of their 3D picture quality parameters.

One of the real industry Gods when it comes to MTF and Digital Cinema is Matt Cowan, he is now Head of R&D for Real D.

Andy Lammer is the neighboor of MC, please join me in pestering him with PM's so that we can learn about how GHOSTBUSTING made REALD's MvAs' presentation superior to IMAX's in terms of lack of ghosting, a deep visual stage with no poking in the eye, and an extremely fluid and congrous Paralllax presentation.

Bravo to SKG and REALD, let the learning process commence.
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:11 PM
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When I was a CES I thought "I wonder if Matt is here too" as their was 3D everywhere.
I ran into Matt a couple weeks after CES and indeed he was there.
I know Matt through a work associate, and will fire him off an email to see if he is game to participate.

- Andy
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

I had a chance to compare this movie in IMAX ...

Was that the older style IMAX with film projection, or the digital IMAX that they have been doing recently with 2 digital projectors (the kind of thing they are putting in multiplexes and selling as IMAX)?

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Was that the older style IMAX with film projection, or the digital IMAX that they have been doing recently with 2 digital projectors (the kind of thing they are putting in multiplexes and selling as IMAX)?

--Darin

Classic large format IMAX.

Ghostbusting looked way more natural, also the aspect ratio was cropped in Imax. Never thought I would say this but Dlp creamed 70 mm from a lack of ghosting and Parallax presentation.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:01 AM
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There's a lot to reply to in this post... I'll talk about ghost reduction.

Ghosting is caused by the leakage of the left eye image into the right eye and vice versa. The cause of this in a digital system is the imager and the optical elements of the system through the lens, screen, and glasses. For theatrical application, we developed a model that allows us to predict the magnitude of the ghost that will occur, and we are able compare the left and right images, and predict the magnitude of the ghost that will occur. Knowing this, we can digitally subtract the ghost image from the image that is sent to the projector, and the result is an image that has visibly reduced ghosting.

Today, we apply this ghost reduction technology (aka "ghost busting") to the digital master that is distributed to the theatres. In the near future, this will be deployed in the theatre, (in the server).

Matt Cowan. (Chief scientist, RealD)
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:19 AM
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Hey Matt, welcome aboard !
Coincidentally I have organized a few pals to go see MvA at the Galaxy in Waterloo tonight. Looking forward to seeing the new technology in action.

- Andy
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:54 AM
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Andy - enjoy the movie. There is one really interesting technical feature of the movie that you can note. It is called "floating windows". Basically, there is a bad effect in 3D where an object comes into the audience and departs the left or right edge of the screen. This is an unnatural effect called "breaking the frame". Think of the movie screen as a window on the world. The unnatrual effect comes from comparing the visual experience to real life - if we are sitting in our living room and watching the world through the window (the movie screen) - objects outside the window (positioned behind the screen) can cross the window, and our left eye will see the object enter or leave the window before the right eye. This is OK if we think the object is outside the window. On the other hand, if the object is inside the room (in front of the screen), we never see this effect, as the object crosses the window, both eyes see it uniformly. If we clip the image at the edge of the window, then our brain thinks there is something wrong.

Floating windows is a method to fix this - where the edge of the picture for one eye is moved in from the edge to create a virtual edge of the window in a different place than the physical screen edge.

You can observe this by taking your glasses off and watching the screen edge - as objects come inside the theatre, this edge will move in and out according to the composition.

Matt.
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh my god! Literally!

I have a thousand questions and comments, welcome to the forum Matt this is a Real Privilege,(NPI).
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:51 PM
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Saw MvA tonight and thought it was much much better than say Journey to the Centre of the Earth.

Is it easier dealing with animated titles vs real-life material ?

- Andy
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Old 04-16-2009, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cowan View Post

Andy - enjoy the movie. There is one really interesting technical feature of the movie that you can note. It is called "floating windows". Basically, there is a bad effect in 3D where an object comes into the audience and departs the left or right edge of the screen. This is an unnatural effect called "breaking the frame". Think of the movie screen as a window on the world. The unnatrual effect comes from comparing the visual experience to real life - if we are sitting in our living room and watching the world through the window (the movie screen) - objects outside the window (positioned behind the screen) can cross the window, and our left eye will see the object enter or leave the window before the right eye. This is OK if we think the object is outside the window. On the other hand, if the object is inside the room (in front of the screen), we never see this effect, as the object crosses the window, both eyes see it uniformly. If we clip the image at the edge of the window, then our brain thinks there is something wrong.

Floating windows is a method to fix this - where the edge of the picture for one eye is moved in from the edge to create a virtual edge of the window in a different place than the physical screen edge.

Matt.


Fascinating, so it sounds like 3D content needs to be filmed to mimic our center/shared eye visual field rather than our peripheral field. If every audience member sat right in front of the screen this wouldn't be an issue as our eyes would match the 2 cameras' perspective. However, most people prefer to have the whole screen/image within their center/shared vision, which means everything on screen should always be in 3D or visible to both eyes to reproduce what the brain is used to experiencing.

How much total horizontal resolution/area is sacrificed for this, around 50%? So unless you are working with a very high resolution camera like RED (with resolution to spare), it makes sense then to only crop the image during these few scenes where objects move off screen.

I've seen Beowulf, Journey, Coraline, and now MvA in Dolby Digital 3-D at the Warren Theatre. Purely as a 3D experience MvA is the best yet, as well as being a fun, funny film.
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Old 04-19-2009, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Matt,

I am having a hard time wrapping my head around your Floating windows explanation, and the interpretation by sysyphius, but tell me if it has something to do with a very interesting perception I had in MvA.

My reference Real D screening room is room 21 at Sunset Place in South Miami.


This is the observation I made with JTTCOTE: I apologize in fact with my critique which may no longer be applicable due to your latest image manipulation techniques.


Due to the retro reflectivity of the silver screen and the directivity of the gain , the shorter viewing distance (to eliminate side ghosting) and the angle of view for a tendency to focus in the foreground (closeup of actors) I prefer to seat in row four center.

So every 3D movie I seat there.And let's see if my observation of the virtual stage footprint geometry has something to do with floating windows or not.

I could swear that with JTTCOTE and Coraline the virtual stage was a rectangle with a flat background standing back 40 feet but with the sides somewhat undefined, wiuth JTTCOTE there were parallax discontinuities due to obstructing ghosting, in Coraline the experience was much better but there were still some aberrations at the edges of the screen.

The new "Virtual Stage Footprint" of MvA seems almost like a flatenned baseball diamond where the viewer is in the batting position but the stage opens up towards the background and the background is curved. There was no discontinuity of the parallax in this movie and the ghosting was not apparent. Do you think what I experience withthis virtual stage footprint observation related to your floating windows, and how so?

Thanks
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