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post #91 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I think you'll find that many on the high end forum don't operate within the sort of budget that makes a Barco an expensive proposition. Also, there are HT units that are significantly more expensive than DCI units anyway. For my own room, I have auditioned, and rejected, Barco and Christie DCI units, based purely on overall PQ. I came to the same conclusion after auditioning the Meridian 810, one of said more expensive units

I agree that the Lumis has lesser optics than a DCI unit, but the Lumis is one of the cheapest 3 chip units available. I think its actually the second cheapest 3chip 1080 unit available The more expensive units, that use constant apperture zooms, certainly do have optics of comparable quality. It was those units that you asked about.

For me, the color difference is not significant. The biggest issue I have is that DCI units have such low contrast. I am not of the opinion that CR is all that matters, far from it, but the image that results from 2000:1 is severely crippled. This limitation is certainly not compensated for, in any significant way, by other minor advantages. Regarding convergence, myself and Art have produced outstanding, ultra close-up images, of convergence that are the equal of DCI machines. DCI machines do enjoy a higher fill factor on thier DMDs

For some time now we have had advocates of DCI machines laud certain parameters where they excelled....ANSI, modified contrast etc. The argument always shifts after each one of those parameters has been exceeded by HT units.

I only want to say, that this is a very good and fair post.

At the beginning this thread looked a bit like a desert, so I was trying to bring in some Newtonmeters. Reading odysseys post I thought it would work But I understand odyssey and I respect his decision.
You know, Peter gets a lot of applause, but very often he runs into full fire and stands alone. May be you and me have to accept, that he is and will remain as Florida's true and only Vulcano. (OK Peter? )

PS: Your equipment list is a dream. Kinoton, just round my corner (15 min.), I've never been there shame on me!
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post #92 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Wolfgang I know when I mentioned this small technicality your response was it is my projector and I color calibrate it as I want, BUT IF YOU had just left your projector at the TIp7 Rec 709 point ( you know the unsaturated setting that is the correct setting for a Post House), then the comparison to the LUMIS would have been more leveled. The Lumis color is cranked up as is the contrast- that is not the way the post houses are seeing the Barco. I appreciate you may have not liked the setting buit the fact remains that there is only one rference setting for rec 709.

You agree with Odyssey in principle but you appear to be granting the LUMIS contrast a handicap of some sorts. You seem to give sequential contrast some wheighing average.

For the record I went to see the LUMIS at the SIM2 booth, having just sold the Titan Reference and the lack of image sharpness, coupled with the exaggerated color and contrast DID NOT SELL ME. Some of us are easier pleased than others I guess in the s/n,color, and high MTF departments. I am very picky about that.

The DP1200 convergence adjust ability is superior to the DP-2000 at the moment you can get perfect convergence with it.
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post #93 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nicksbass View Post

I only want to say, that this is a very good and fair post.

At the beginning this thread looked a bit like a desert, so I was trying to bring in some Newtonmeters. Reading odysseys post I thought it would work But I understand odyssey and I respect his decision.
You know, Peter gets a lot of applause, but very often he runs into full fire and stands alone. May be you and me have to accept, that he is and will remain as Florida's true and only Vulcano. (OK Peter? )

PS: Your equipment list is a dream. Kinoton, just round my corner (15 min.), I've never been there shame on me!

No, how dare he pollute this thread with a lowly 5K?
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post #94 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

No, how dare he pollute this thread with a lowly 5K?

Tssssss, Peter...

News from barco: No date yet, but they came up with some unexpected infos... But before following that route further, I want to see, how the 6K-M theme works out. I promised Lon to do that and I am strongly interested myself. Let's see what happens.
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post #95 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 10:55 AM
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i try also 709 and other color settings depens on the soure
material i have.
i feed bd at 24p.
i have still pictures in 3d coming from a computer in a very specialy way and
cinema content that i playback at cinema color 2d and 3d.

i give up to post all this things here as most people are not interestet about it
and some mix up things and some read my post to fast and not get everything.
it also to time consuming for me and thats why you see lately only
very few posts from me.
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post #96 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

For the record I went to see the LUMIS at the SIM2 booth ...

What tradeshow are you referring to (CEDIA last year, CES, something else)? Have you seen the LUMIS outside of tradeshow conditions?

--Darin

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post #97 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Thats the problem for me personally. I want more of everything, all in one uber machine. Who doesn't.

Exactly and there are those here who understand that there is no perfect machine. Some here don't.

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post #98 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Exactly and there are those here who understand that there is no perfect machine. Some here don't.

Art

Can we call a do-over and stop with the name-calling and thinly veiled insults and can someone in the genuine know describe, free of hyperbole, describe what the differences are between...

1) consumer 1080p DC4 chip vs. DC 2K chip

2) consumer optics vs. DC optics (do high-end consumer projectors really use the same grade optics as the best DC projectors do?)

3) can good engineering from a consumer manufacturer enable a 1080p chip based projector to attain performance comparable/equal to/better than a DC 2K chip based projector (recognizing that projectors are more than just the imaging chip)?

So no references to previous posts and who insulted who. Just please answer the questions and pretend that we're all standing in front of each other and therefore on better behavior. Everyone's a big man typing behind a keyboard. Bigger men don't get dragged into insult trading. Keep focused, and let's stay on topic.
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post #99 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

Can we call a do-over and stop with the name-calling and thinly veiled insults and can someone in the genuine know describe, free of hyperbole.


There is no name calling or hyperbole in that post of mine you quoted. I'm willing to admit advantages of various devices without saying that since my projector or the type of system I like doesn't have this or that that that parameter or feature is not important. This is my point. I think that the advantages or various devices have been covered in this and many other threads to a reasonable degree.

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post #100 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

What tradeshow are you referring to (CEDIA last year, CES, something else)? Have you seen the LUMIS outside of tradeshow conditions?

--Darin

EHX- their display won best in show. I found the colors oversaturated and the contrast exxgerated whilst lacking high frequecy information. I very much prefer the Titan Reference in that regard even though it is a 1080p consumer unit with just a very high native cr, but it is significantly sharper than the lumis.
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post #101 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

2) consumer optics vs. DC optics (do high-end consumer projectors really use the same grade optics as the best DC projectors do?)
NO they do not DC projectors will always have cherry picked matched tolerances.
3) can good engineering from a consumer manufacturer enable a 1080p chip based projector to attain performance comparable/equal to/better than a DC 2K chip based projector (recognizing that projectors are more than just the imaging chip)?
TI will only release DCI componentry to authorized DCI vendors.

see
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post #102 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

Can we call a do-over and stop with the name-calling and thinly veiled insults and can someone in the genuine know describe, free of hyperbole, describe what the differences are between...

1) consumer 1080p DC4 chip vs. DC 2K chip

2) consumer optics vs. DC optics (do high-end consumer projectors really use the same grade optics as the best DC projectors do?)

3) can good engineering from a consumer manufacturer enable a 1080p chip based projector to attain performance comparable/equal to/better than a DC 2K chip based projector (recognizing that projectors are more than just the imaging chip)?

1. DCI chips have better fill ratio and slightly higher resolution.

2. Yes they do. Most high end units use pro level CA zooms.

3. Yes they can, and currently do. Thats why, on the basis of overall image, I have rejected DCI units for my current room.


Also, rather that tell people how to conduct themselves, you may want to devote some of that motivation to searching out the answers to the questions you are repeating. They have all, as Art explained, been dealt with many times before.

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post #103 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

there are those here who understand that there is no perfect machine. Some here don't.

Amen to that.

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post #104 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

1. DCI chips have better fill ratio and slightly higher resolution.

2. Yes they do. Most high end units use pro level CA zooms.

3. Yes they can, and currently do. Thats why, on the basis of overall image, I have rejected DCI units for my current room.

What are consumer units doing better than Digital Cinema units? And more importantly HOW are they doing it? It does stand to reason that TI would want their to be a delta between what a single consumer can do and what a commercial cinema experienced by moviegoers numbering in the 10's of thousands daily can experience. It is in TI's best interest that they assure the commercial side is showcased before they make it possible for the tiny, tiny, tiny segment of the market that will pay 5 or 6 figures for a video projector to top it.

So I'm not disputing you, but there is some logic to Cineramax's assertations, and those who favor the consumer stuff point to better contrast, but is not fact that DC uses a much better higher performance chipset? The projector HAS to be more robust to stand up to heavy daily constant use? The projector's HAVE to have perfect colorimetry and professional quality optics?

None of which is a requirement or a given in a consumer unit....
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post #105 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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It is clearly a case where some competitive escalation between DILA and 3DLP has HANDICAPPED Sequential Contrast as the holly Grail in projection when in reality all it took to do was to see the overwhelming superiority of these other factors that create images comparable and superior in many ways to 70mm and IMAX. Even Imax has recognized some of these benefits, sufficiently to re-invent themselves along the line of the same technology I espouse.

CM I thought you had agreed to start your own DCI bashing thread somewhere else? Hack.
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post #106 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Also, rather that tell people how to conduct themselves, you may want to devote some of that motivation to searching out the answers to the questions you are repeating. They have all, as Art explained, been dealt with many times before.


I'm not telling anyone how to conduct themselves. I hoped to encounter some professionally minded people who could answer some questions I've had about the differences between commercial and consumer stuff without constantly referencing how wrong some other post was about their point of view. As for repeating myself, to get the answers I seek and given that after my initial questions, there were several that followed that blasted a previous post of someone else, I wanted to make sure my queries were at or near the top of the que. No need to take anything personally. I have used non-inflammatory verbage to get my point across specifically so I would not offend (there are those who thrive on the perception of being offended and constantly get threads off topic it would seem). Rest assured, it was not intended on this end.

If it wouldn't pain someone to repeat themselves with information that may be buried in old threads somewhere else, I'd love some straightforward answers to my questions, and to those people, I thank you in advance.
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post #107 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Let it be known that consumer projectors do not have 3% handpicked , handmatched components, they essentially use b, c and d level parts and optics.
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post #108 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

It does stand to reason that TI would want their to be a delta between what a single consumer can do and what a commercial cinema experienced by moviegoers numbering in the 10's of thousands daily can experience. It is in TI's best interest that they assure the commercial side is showcased before they make it possible for the tiny, tiny, tiny segment of the market that will pay 5 or 6 figures for a video projector to top it.

TI make chips, not projectors. A projector, and its resulting image, is dictated by far more that its DMD. Thats why there is such a huge difference among machines that use the same DMDs

Quote:
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So I'm not disputing you, but there is some logic to Cineramax's assertations, and those who favor the consumer stuff point to better contrast, but is not fact that DC uses a much better higher performance chipset? The projector HAS to be more robust to stand up to heavy daily constant use? The projector's HAVE to have perfect colorimetry and professional quality optics?

How many times must you be told that high end units use pro level CA lens units? Also,any high end unit, when calibrated, can achieve very accurate rec709 colorspace. The last unit I used was essentially color perfect, had outstanding MC, had higher ANSI than any DCI unit and vastly higher CR. Overall, presented on the same screen, the image was markedly superior.

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post #109 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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At the DCI level TI is doing way more than manufacturing Chips, it's control over the end product is nearly absolute. The parts procurement and rejection process for DCI is totally different that with consumer projectors.

There is no more accurate rec 709 on the planet than a DCI projector properly set, by comparisons projectors from most consumer vendors are OVERSATURATED to please the eye. Only Digital Projection took the difficult approach to this, that of emulating tip7 rec709 correctly de-saturated, I belive it has cost them , many respected forum members have complained about the Titan color, when in reality it was the closest to the Postproduction standard.
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post #110 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Let it be known that consumer projectors do not have 3% handpicked , handmatched components, they essentially use b, c and d level parts and optics.

Peter, that is misleading garbage, and you know it.

All high end consumer units use graded DMDs too.

The notion that anyone uses b,c and d level optics is simply untrue, and you know that too. The PJ companies specify a lens performance and thats exactly what they get.

The DMDs in DCI machine are capable of yielding an ANSI of around 1200, but no DCI machines are close to delivering that. Domestic units are now, with improved coatings etc, well ahead of DCI units in that vital area. The 1000 ANSI barrier fell to domestic units, followed immediately by the 1100 barrier. I certainly remember you touting this as the most important spec when DCI units held the lead. Now that the situation has reversed, we no longer hear that assertion.

In on/off CR, DCI units lag by orders of magnitude. Their, super high, black floor is an absolute image killer.

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post #111 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

There is no more accurate rec 709 on the planet than a DCI projector properly set, by comparisons projectors from most consumer vendors are OVERSATURATED to please the eye. Only Digital Projection took the difficult approach to this, that of emulating tip7 rec709 correctly de-saturated, I belive it has cost them , many respected forum members have complained about the Titan color, when in reality it was the closest to the Postproduction standard.

Any high end PJ with a good CMS can produce a very accurate 709 colorspace. By definition, this cannot be over saturated when so calibrated. You are very aware of that anyway Peter.

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post #112 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

What are consumer units doing better than Digital Cinema units? And more importantly HOW are they doing it? It does stand to reason that TI would want their to be a delta between what a single consumer can do and what a commercial cinema experienced by moviegoers numbering in the 10's of thousands daily can experience. It is in TI's best interest that they assure the commercial side is showcased before they make it possible for the tiny, tiny, tiny segment of the market that will pay 5 or 6 figures for a video projector to top it.

There are different limitations for the 2 markets. For instance, commercial theaters are going to have some lighting on just because that is the law (at least in the US) and they don't want to get sued. A home user doesn't need exit signs and things like that. Also, commercial cinema demands huge lumens because they have huge screens. Given the way DMDs and projector designs around them work, other than using a dynamic iris, going for more light generally means less contrast ratio (at least less on/off CR), or by definition, a higher absolute black level in ft-lamberts for the same white level in ft-lamberts (light off the screen).

Of course different people can care about different parameters more, but the above is one of the differences.

And if TI decides to purposely hold home theaters back just for the sake of having images in DCI theaters be better, then there is a good chance they do it at the own detriment. That is where it is nice when there is at least some competition. If there was more competition at the 2000 lumen mark (like from Sony) that would probably help even more, but I doubt TI is doing a lot to purposely hold home units back just for the sake of having them be inferior. They might be held back some because of cost, but that is a different matter than things like purposely holding the on/off CR values back would be.

As far as what people care about, a person could decide that projector A beats projector B in 4 categories, while projector B beats projector A in 1 category, yet still prefer the images from projector B. For instance, if the areas where A gets a 99% subjective score B gets a 97% score, but the one area where B wins it gets a 98% score and A gets an 80% score. Just an example where a person could weight how well they believe each does in different images parameters and it could go the other way too. I would like to see how much the DCI units beat something like the Lumis by in the categories where the DCI units are better, but of course it is subjective too.

--Darin

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post #113 of 141 Old 05-16-2009, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Peter, that is misleading garbage, and you know it.

All high end consumer units use graded DMDs too.

The notion that anyone uses b,c and d level optics is simply untrue, and you know that too. The PJ companies specify a lens performance and thats exactly what they get.

The DMDs in DCI machine are capable of yielding an ANSI of around 1200, but no DCI machines are close to delivering that. Domestic units are now, with improved coatings etc, well ahead of DCI units in that vital area. The 1000 ANSI barrier fell to domestic units, followed immediately by the 1100 barrier. I certainly remember you touting this as the most important spec when DCI units held the lead. Now that the situation has reversed, we no longer hear that assertion.

In on/off CR, DCI units lag by orders of magnitude. Their, super high, black floor is an absolute image killer.

Wow , do I love truth and accuracy.

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post #114 of 141 Old 05-17-2009, 07:27 AM
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thread cleanup

Please take the high road in every post
Please do not quote or respond to problematic posts: report them to mods to handle
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post #115 of 141 Old 05-17-2009, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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The 3% chips are no only graded but matched among themselves and the prisms are also carefully picked and matched. I spoke to a big projector company that is actually going to introduce a "superkontrast" LATER THIS YEAR Made by Barco and Optimized by this large vendor. One cannot rebadge a DCI unit for prosumer use, the original Manufacturer's name will be preserved.


As far as what people care about, a person could decide that projector A beats projector B in 4 categories, while projector B beats projector A in 1 category, yet still prefer the images from projector B. For instance, if the areas where A gets a 99% subjective score B gets a 97% score, but the one area where B wins it gets a 98% score and A gets an 80% score. Just an example where a person could weight how well they believe each does in different images parameters and it could go the other way too. I would like to see how much the DCI units beat something like the Lumis by in the categories where the DCI units are better, but of course it is subjective too.

--Darin

Darin that is the most sensible suggestion, and all that I am really asking. Having seen what I saw in the Lumis my brain rejected it's lack of sharpness, an argument in favoring MTF in a wheighed situation, for this to work the committee making this decision (what parameters should weigh what) should have been familiar at watching a modded DCI unit, one tweaked like the Prometheus (the best that class has to offer for HT) and not a plain vanilla box LIKE SOME HERE ARE BASING THEIR SHOOTOUTS AND DEMOS on , before deciding what other parameters to weigh and how.

I am very clear that there is no contest, and I speak from a position of being comparing what we considered the best 1080p 3 chip (the Titan Reference) to the gamma tweaked, and non gamma tweaked contrast modded units.
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post #116 of 141 Old 05-17-2009, 09:21 AM
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Peter, those images are pointless. There are far too many variables there....PJ calibration, camera issues etc etc. They do NOT support your stand point.

I will post some technical screenshots later, they certainly DO support my standpoint. They will clearly show your convergence and MTF assertions to be incorrect.

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post #117 of 141 Old 05-17-2009, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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The cardboard cutout effect was there in person and in the pictures 3 planes the piano, Elton and the background, that was not replicable with the Titan Rerence or the Barco.
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post #118 of 141 Old 05-17-2009, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Peter, those images are pointless. There are far too many variables there....PJ calibration, camera issues etc etc. They do NOT support your stand point.

I will post some technical screenshots later, they certainly DO support my standpoint. They will clearly show your convergence and MTF assertions to be incorrect.



Let's take the thread comparing the relative merits of the Lumis vs the Superkontrast here. I want to go on with my scheduled presentation involving home automation control options of Dolby Server. Which is not an easy task due to the VGA display of the Dolby Server which needs to be touchscreen integrated separate from the basic transport control part which is rs-232.
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post #119 of 141 Old 05-17-2009, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

TI make chips, not projectors. A projector, and its resulting image, is dictated by far more that its DMD. Thats why there is such a huge difference among machines that use the same DMDs

How many times must you be told that high end units use pro level CA lens units? Also,any high end unit, when calibrated, can achieve very accurate rec709 colorspace. The last unit I used was essentially color perfect, had outstanding MC, had higher ANSI than any DCI unit and vastly higher CR. Overall, presented on the same screen, the image was markedly superior.

Totally agree that a chip is only one part of a projection system. However, what I am asking about is whether two projectors, one DCI, one high-end consumer, that BOTH have been optimized in every way possible will reveal a significant difference. And if TI's DC chips are inherently superior to consumer 1080p chips, then all other things being equal, the DCI unit wins, right? And if not, then what is the consumer projector doing to overcome that difference?

As to your second point, respectfully I submit that condescension and anger are not necessary. If you don't want to answer a question "again", then don't.
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post #120 of 141 Old 05-20-2009, 09:33 AM
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wow... the other thread was removed. whatever happened... it must have been good to be removed and not just cleaned/locked.

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