SuperKontrast CEDIA Report - I have been to the Temple and back... - AVS Forum
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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All I can say is simply amazing picture quality, the best at the show to my eyes. The colors, blacks, brightness and depth [especially in 3D depth of field mode] were just outstanding.

It appears the screen was 12' wide and the projector throw was 10-12' [these are just estimates for the real data speak to Peter aka "CINERAMAX"] and the detail in Hulk [ it for sure showed of the green ] Iron Man and Kung Fu Panda was spot on. When the animation flick was enhanced with the 3D depth effect it equalled the DPI mega machine [ now keep in mind DPI was being show on a 20' wide screen so I do wish that the booth would have been larger allowing a larger screen for a better comparison ].

Now Iron Man [seemed to be popular demo material] was shown elsewhere for the most part but still a high impact action film to say the least. I seen this material on the SIM2 Lumis [about 60% less in cost] and Projection Design [about 20% less] and the BARCO just outclassed them even the DPI Titan Lightning Ref [30% MORE]. Who says money can't buy you love?

On to the screen. I have always been a Screen Research and Stewart fan when it comes to AT screens. However there is a new kid on the block, SMX. This was apparent when the other fellars were attending demos and hanging around the booth. But the proof is in the pudding. The picture was excellent as stated above and the audio [though could have gone threw a concrete screen... just kidding Cinepro ] was again spot on. After the demo I checked the screen out and the construction and fit and finish were all top shelf to my eye.

Lets talk sound. Now my first visit I stood next to the side wall next to the light dimmer and frankly I was a little let down. However I came back and sat in the second row dead center and it was much better. I can tell you the detail and imaging was just pure as could be. The bass was tight and stirred [rattled] you deep inside all the way to the soles of your feet! All of this without distortion and harshness. This system can play loud with accuracy with NO, yes that's right NO distortion. Now let me totally candid. Was it loud? Yes a touch to much. You see I run sound on Sundays at a small church and 96 dB is loud to me. There was one guy with an IPhone that the SPL app flatlined at 105dB! Remeber God's hearing is better than mine by far. The second issue for me with was the surrounds sound a bit "hot" or in other words a bit dominate. I do not think it was the material but the set up possibly since I have Hulk in my collection. Now am I a nit picker? Well yeah kinda. But I can tell you there were a lot of smiles inside and outside the temple after the demos.

What about the room? Please keep in mind the location of the "Temple" did not have much going on around it but normal show noise. Upon closing the door it all went away. It was very well done in that regard. Now there as some leaking if you will during the demos. However it was not distracting considering the volumes inside. The guys at Cary Audio were not distracted or upset at all and it did not affect thier means of conductiung business. How did it compare with the room in a room at Triad? Well a bit different animal and location in regards to other sound based demos but not bad. The folks at Triad said a local contractor worked 3.5 days and often till 2AM. It would have been quite interesting to have measured sound levels with the door closed prior to demos and outside the room during the demos [though Triad did not have it cranked but it was loud enogh]

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Old 09-15-2009, 12:38 AM
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I thought the sound isolation for Triad room was great. While the base inside the place was not all that strong, from the outside, standing in the line for 10 minutes, we could not hear anything.

Sadly, I did not get a chance to see Peter's room. So good to read about that here. Thanks for sharing it.

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Old 09-15-2009, 04:34 AM
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I'm really glad for Qualio and Ruben. It seems like the SuperKontrast and SMX was the best in show for many of the viewers! Excellent!
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:02 AM
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Has Peter's set-up not recieved any awards?
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:48 AM
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The sound in the SMX/Peter/Cinepro room did have some issues. The sound stage wasn't very wide and the picture was more three dimensional than the sound stage. Now, having said that, it was a very good presentation under the circumstances. The array design of those speakers really requires a much larger space to really shine and seating distances further than what could be achieved in a space of that size. If they can realize their desires to have a larger Temple next year they could get some stunning audio and Peter wouldn't have to fight the demons of that short throw lens.

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Old 09-15-2009, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

All I can say is simply amazing picture quality, the best at the show to my eyes. The colors, blacks, brightness and depth [especially in 3D depth of field mode] were just outstanding.

It appears the screen was 12' wide and the projector throw was 10-12' [these are just estimates for the real data speak to Peter aka "CINERAMAX"] and the detail in Hulk [ it for sure showed of the green ] Iron Man and Kung Fu Panda was spot on. When the animation flick was enhanced with the 3D depth effect it equalled the DPI mega machine [ now keep in mind DPI was being show on a 20' wide screen so I do wish that the booth would have been larger allowing a larger screen for a better comparison ].

Now Iron Man [seemed to be popular demo material] was shown elsewhere for the most part but still a high impact action film to say the least. I seen this material on the SIM2 Lumis [about 60% less in cost] and Projection Design [about 20% less] and the BARCO just outclassed them even the DPI Titan Lightning Ref [30% MORE]. Who says money can't buy you love?

On to the screen. I have always been a Screen Research and Stewart fan when it comes to AT screens. However there is a new kid on the block, SMX. This was apparent when the other fellars were attending demos and hanging around the booth. But the proof is in the pudding. The picture was excellent as stated above and the audio [though could have gone threw a concrete screen... just kidding Cinepro ] was again spot on. After the demo I checked the screen out and the construction and fit and finish were all top shelf to my eye.

Lets talk sound. Now my first visit I stood next to the side wall next to the light dimmer and frankly I was a little let down. However I came back and sat in the second row dead center and it was much better. I can tell you the detail and imaging was just pure as could be. The bass was tight and stirred [rattled] you deep inside all the way to the soles of your feet! All of this without distortion and harshness. This system can play loud with accuracy with NO, yes that's right NO distortion. Now let me totally candid. Was it loud? Yes a touch to much. You see I run sound on Sundays at a small church and 96 dB is loud to me. There was one guy with an IPhone that the SPL app flatlined at 105dB! Remeber God's hearing is better than mine by far. The second issue for me with was the surrounds sound a bit "hot" or in other words a bit dominate. I do not think it was the material but the set up possibly since I have Hulk in my collection. Now am I a nit picker? Well yeah kinda. But I can tell you there were a lot of smiles inside and outside the temple after the demos.

What about the room? Please keep in mind the location of the "Temple" did not have much going on around it but normal show noise. Upon closing the door it all went away. It was very well done in that regard. Now there as some leaking if you will during the demos. However it was not distracting considering the volumes inside. The guys at Cary Audio were not distracted or upset at all and it did not affect thier means of conductiung business. How did it compare with the room in a room at Triad? Well a bit different animal and location in regards to other sound based demos but not bad. The folks at Triad said a local contractor worked 3.5 days and often till 2AM. It would have been quite interesting to have measured sound levels with the door closed prior to demos and outside the room during the demos [though Triad did not have it cranked but it was loud enogh]

mmiles,
I agree with you, Cineramax's picture quality and the depth effects was truly outstanding. SMX totally Trumped Stewart and Screen Research by a wide margin. The Cinepro sound was indeed spectacular. I also went back for a 2nd and a 3rd time for a better seat. The 2nd and 3rd time was even better, crystal clear, detailed, musical with dynamics that I never heard before. The energy you heard from the surrounds was pure dynamics. They had 450 + watts going into them with peaks that reached upwards of 1000 watts. They were no ordinary surround speakers. I have auditioned many big, expensive systems costing 2, 3 & 4 x the Cinepro system with much less performance in dynamics and sound quality. Everyone needs to remember that Show conditions are never perfect. Companies try to impress the majority of the attendees instead of the very few who can't afford or sell their high end products. If you were buying a Ferrari would you expect the sales person to give you a 75 mph demo??????? I would expect 150mph but that's just me! There was one guy who ran out saying that it was too loud....What do you expect from a CEDIA tradeshow??? BTW... Cinepro said their system comes with a volume control knob ..so you can lower it!

Great show Peter/SMX/Cinepro ..Thank You for pushing the limit and showing us The Ultimate Home Cinema anything less is certainly a step DOWN!

Regards,
ED
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Martini,

Agreed for the most part. I owned a 2001 C1 Corvette and got to 147mph and backed off so I can appreciate stretching your legs so to speak.

But to me, and again to me only, it was NOT a matter of dynamics but just pure SPL. It was almost uncomfortable at times. Please remember I'm an old man at 50 yrs old and would have appreciated this much more say 30 years ago in my concert days. Loud is not bad... But like you, Mr. E. and others have said it was a very good demo of both sight and sound.

Amir,

Agreed the Triad room was tight and you could not hear much if anything at all coming out of the room while you were in line [ they only took 11 at a time, I tried to offer a guy 2 bucks to take his spot but he declined ]. But the inside sound level was much lower inside the Triad room vs. THE TEMPLE.

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Old 09-15-2009, 09:37 AM
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I heard that it had a great picture but that the audio was simply too loud and harsh sounding.

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Old 09-15-2009, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I heard that it had a great picture but that the audio was simply too loud and harsh sounding.

Art

I heard it described as a loud, incessant, screeching noise

But that wasn't the audio system, it was just Peters voice

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Old 09-15-2009, 10:25 AM
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I heard it described as a loud, incessant, screeching noise

But that wasn't the audio system, it was just Peters voice

Yes, the distortion was to high to measure.

ED,
I am not sure what to expect from a CEDIA tradeshow, as I didn't go into hardly any of the audio demos. One thing you are missing is that this was a demo of not only Cinepro, but a pj and screen. I believe Ruben was funding most of this, so it was important for his customers to be comfortable. The guy that ran out may not have gotten a good look at the screen or the pj. Because of this, he may not have been interested in either one. For me, was the sound a deterrent? No, but I was looking more at the screen and picture. Oh and in your Ferrari analogy, I would want Luca Badoer to drive me around on a road course to see how good it is. Any car can go fast in a straight line.

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Old 09-15-2009, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I heard that it had a great picture but that the audio was simply too loud and harsh sounding.

Art

Art,
Having demoed the room 3 times, it was NOT harsh sounding at all. As Dennis put it, the room could have been larger. Other systems at the show were extremely harsh at levels much lower because they were pushing their system into distortion. Having that said, open minded people who acknowledge and understand the limitations of show conditions truly understand a good thing when they hear it. Manufacturers are trying to impress the majority by "Showing Off" the systems potential and limitations. Ferrari wouldn't drive their cars at 75 mph at a promotional track event...would they??? I think dealers would be highly dissapointed.

Cinepro amps have incredible headroom which can reproduce ever transient that is recorded on the disc effortlessly without distortion. Most people's systems are clipping off this information and to that person it will seem as being loud. Gunshots are loud in real life and the their demonstration was as true to real life as I ever heard....without any harshness, ear fatigue or ringing post demo.

Besides the clip of the female vocalist was dead on...especially for speakers behind an AT screen that stretched from wall to wall.

I have been fortunate enough to hear Cinpero's Mighty bookshelf system at last Cedia in the Sim2 room which was played at moderate levels which got the approval of several audiophiles and High End dealers I spoke with. These speakers were set up properly in the room without grills which is what most audiophiles prefer. The sound Sim2's 2008 CEDIA at 35K Trumped Sim2's 2009
200K set up. I goes to show you just because you through money at something doesn't mean it will perform any better.

Sim2 was so impressed that they purchased Cinepro's Mighty System for their factory Theater in Italy.

Truly Impressed By "The Temple" by far the Best of Show!
Ed
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Old 09-15-2009, 10:47 AM
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Ed,
Gunshots are loud in real life. That is why you wear ear protection.

MM and Ed,
Did either of you see the JVC 4k with the 4k content?

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Old 09-15-2009, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

Yes, the distortion was to high to measure.

ED,
I am not sure what to expect from a CEDIA tradeshow, as I didn't go into hardly any of the audio demos. One thing you are missing is that this was a demo of not only Cinepro, but a pj and screen. I believe Ruben was funding most of this, so it was important for his customers to be comfortable. The guy that ran out may not have gotten a good look at the screen or the pj. Because of this, he may not have been interested in either one. For me, was the sound a deterrent? No, but I was looking more at the screen and picture. Oh and in your Ferrari analogy, I would want Luca Badoer to drive me around on a road course to see how good it is. Any car can go fast in a straight line.

Ericglo,
I don't know who funded what. I'm sure Cinepro didn't get a free ride.

If it were my company and my money, I would accept 3-5% disapproval rate to impress the other 95% of the attendees. Your points were well taken but, I'm sure Cinepro Sound exposed Rubens Screens to hundreds more attendees than if an average system was playing. I have followed Cinepro and attending their past shows and they always have an outstanding turn out and a tremendous loyal following. I have talked to the owners of Cinepro and they have landed some the country's top Custom Theater Ingretors because of their demos. They Walk their Talk!

We are splitting hairs at this point. Overall it was an OUTSTANDING demonstration from three underdog companies who joined their efforts to give CEDIA attendees a TRULY REFERENCE THEATER both in Video & Audio using an Outstanding superior AT screen. I am converting over to a SMX screen.


Ed
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Old 09-15-2009, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

Ed,
Gunshots are loud in real life. That is why you wear ear protection.

MM and Ed,
Did either of you see the JVC 4k with the 4k content?

Ericglo,
If you wore ear protection you wouldn't hear the rest of the movie...LOL!

That's the thrill of the unexpected. They are NOT playing dialogue loud….it is the that
their amplifiers have enormous amounts of headroom that does not clip off any of the recorded information.
If you had enough time to spend with their products in your theater and under the control of your desired volume level you will find a greater appreciation for Cinepro.

Show conditions are really to impress the majority and to find dealers who fit your products personality.

I didn’t get a chance to view the JVC. I had to leave the show a day early.
ED
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Old 09-15-2009, 11:19 AM
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There is no question that it is fun to talk about which system sounded or looked better. But unless each one used the same material, including test signals, we will never know the reality of the situation. We can however, put blame on folks who made rooms that really looked bad and sounded bad .

So at the end of the day it doesn't matter if there is a difference of opinion.

However, kudos do need to be given to the only guy who dared to put up test signals: Joe Kane and his Samsung projector + DaLite screen. For all the others, I walked out without learning if their systems are really capable or not. If the system talked about here did have the best picture, I sure wish they had put up reference signals for confirmation....

I for one would not switch to a different screen after watching some sample clips.

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Old 09-15-2009, 11:58 AM
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I thought the Superkontrast modded Barco looked fantastic too. Especially good for us bright addicts !!

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Old 09-15-2009, 02:44 PM
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My .02 :

Uber-Kudos to Ruben and Peter! The screens that were on display looked extremely well built, very high fit and finish. Peter's projector lived-up to his hype, and when you consider just how much hype that is (years worth now isn't it?) that says alot.

For me personally, the audio prtion of the demo was too hot- painful at times during both the Hulk and KFP demos, since I've never seen any measurements for that system regarding distortion I can't say whether there was any or not- but it seemed to me that the tweeter arrays were certainly stressed at certain frequencies during those clips. The music demo was nice. For me, that was the first time I've ever had to actually put my fingers in my ears during a demo at that level (I've been in demos at 115 to even 130 peaks without discomfort)- but I was essentially stuck in the corner of the room during the demo. Without a doubt there's serious horsepower in the Cinepro rig, and that is to be commended.

All-in, I'd say that the Superkontrast was a resounding success.

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Old 09-15-2009, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

If the system talked about here did have the best picture, I sure wish they had put up reference signals for confirmation....

You are joking right? Because the TI P7 $25,000,000 autocalibration feature of the superkontrast renders the purest rec 709 signal on the planet down to 3 nm accuracy. This is what real post houses use not the JKP. No 16 Million Color single chip projector can begin to aspire to that level of accuracy. Because we can we instead chose to not present the demo in (flat) rec 709, our system dimensionalizes that standard, but it is always there as an option.
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:13 PM
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I thought the Superkontrast modded Barco looked fantastic too. Especially good for us bright addicts !!

IT WAS GREAT MEETING YOU CRAIG. Thanks for the kind words. I am puitting you down for one in 2010.
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

My .02 :

Uber-Kudos to Ruben and Peter! The screens that were on display looked extremely well built, very high fit and finish. Peter's projector lived-up to his hype, and when you consider just how much hype that is (years worth now isn't it?) that says alot.

For me personally, the audio prtion of the demo was too hot- painful at times during both the Hulk and KFP demos, since I've never seen any measurements for that system regarding distortion I can't say whether there was any or not- but it seemed to me that the tweeter arrays were certainly stressed at certain frequencies during those clips. The music demo was nice. For me, that was the first time I've ever had to actually put my fingers in my ears during a demo at that level (I've been in demos at 115 to even 130 peaks without discomfort)- but I was essentially stuck in the corner of the room during the demo. Without a doubt there's serious horsepower in the Cinepro rig, and that is to be commended.

All-in, I'd say that the Superkontrast was a resounding success.

Dan

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Old 09-15-2009, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Amir,

The JKP - Samsung - DaLite package did offer a high value of performance vs. price but again nothing that astounded my eyes by any means.

Again for the money it would be worth considering for a budget type system.

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Old 09-15-2009, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

You are joking right? Because the TI P7 $25,000,000 autocalibration feature of the superkontrast renders the purest rec 709 signal on the planet down to 3 nm accuracy. This is what real post houses use not the JKP. No 16 bit single chip projector can begin to aspire to that level of accuracy. Because we can we instead chose to not present the demo in (flat) rec 709, our system dimensionalizes that standard, but it is always there as an option.

No, I am not joking. I want to see simple things like white field uniformity. I want to see a single pixels lines and patterns to check for any possible ringing and screen interactions. I want to see the full chain being 709 compliant. I want to be able to walk up on a still image and examine the image on screen. It may have been all of that. But without showing it, I wouldn't know. I managed to do all of these with Joe's demo.

The whole basis of comparing systems is using known sources with known output. Playing movies in one room and another movie in another room is entertaining but only mildly informative.

And to be clear, I am not saying Joe's system is better than yours. Only that he approaches the show as an engineer trying to prove the science behind his system using objective tools.

Joe's first demo material was a black and white film to show the full dynamic range and resolution of the image. Others put up Batman and Transformers, rattling the walls and asking, "isn't that great?" Answer is, well, maybe.

Take the triad demo. They could have picked material which hid the moire pattern but they didn't. The artifact was purely visible in the Stewart microperf screen. Had they been smarter and avoided those few scenes, I may have walked away with a more positive impression. In other words, they managed to get a test signal or two by accident in there. But we should not have to rely on accidents to properly evaluate technology.

So no, wanting to see objective video demonstration is not a joke in my book. I have done too many shows to know the many ways there are to accentuate what is good, and hide what is not .

Had you said that "this is a show and we are trying to make a living" would have been far, far more convincing argument than above answer!

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Old 09-15-2009, 04:24 PM
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By the same token, with the JKP PJ playing the 2007 Dolby demo of the Classical orchestra I counted 8 different separate rainbows on 8 violin bows that had fully traveled to their end position. A totally unacceptable sight that does not show up on test patterns, having 8 rainbows on a screen at the time.

Besides you should also bring a decent color analyzer if you are going to deconstruct an image, The SuperKontrast has the most accurate d65 rendition of any projector on the market, I am pleased to report. Had you had a pr-655 you could have seen for yourself.
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:32 PM
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there are patterns that show rainbow. And amir is correct. when showing video that is moving, and CGI, etc, we can all look and say wow isnt that great. but without seeing a test patt, then you do not know. And peter, as you well know, colour is only one part of things.

Having said that, only Joe would approach a trade show that way. Because lets face it, most people do not know what they are looking at, and test patterns are decidedly UN-sexy

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Old 09-15-2009, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

By the same token, with the JKP PJ playing the 2007 Dolby demo of the Classical orchestra I counted 8 different separate rainbows on 8 violin bows that had fully traveled to their end position. A totally unacceptable sight that does not show up on test patterns, having 8 rainbows on a screen at the time.

I didn't say you only evaluate a system using test signals. You start there and show the basics are right and then move on to other things.

BTW, since that showed up on video material, you have no way of knowing if the aliasing was in the source or the display. That is why we use test signals. We know they don't have rainbows .
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Besides you should also bring a decent color analyzer if you are going to deconstruct an image, The SuperKontrast has the most accurate d65 rendition of any projector on the market, I am pleased to report. Had you had a pr-655 you could have seen for yourself.

I should bring a color analyzer? First, I have a CS-200. And no, I am not lugging it there for someone else to make a sale. If they are selling accuracy, they need to prove it. It is not my responsibility to do it.

If your projector had the most accurate color on the market, then the way to show that would have been to have three projectors side by side, and with the appropriate instrument, show the difference numerically. Saying it after the fact doesn't carry much weight.

Again, please note that I am not trying to put down your system. Only that if we are to brag about it as being the best out there, we need some data. It was a missed opportunity to not show some stats to go with the pretty demos. That's all.

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Old 09-15-2009, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

.Besides you should also bring a decent color analyzer if you are going to deconstruct an image, The SuperKontrast has the most accurate d65 rendition of any projector on the market, I am pleased to report. Had you had a pr-655 you could have seen for yourself.

Perhaps you should do what other professional manufactures do at shows like NAB and AES. Run after hours technical demos for qualified customers.

Oh and yes, you have to supply the test equipment too. Beg, borrow, and lease if you have to.

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Old 09-15-2009, 09:31 PM
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I thought the projector and screen were superb, the best at the show, but the audio ruined it for me. The room was simply tooo loud. I agree that the room was too small for the speakers. I just wish someone would have told Cinepro that the answer was not to turn it up louder.

I thought the Cinepro speakers in the Sim2 booth last year was one of the best audio demos of the show, but this year the Triad room and even the Crestron room (with Triad speakers) were among the best. The Martin Logan CLX with a ton of Macintosh gear was the best I heard at the show this year.
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:35 PM
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The Martin Logan CLX with a ton of Macintosh gear was the best I heard at the show this year.

Definitely agree. It was amazingly good. These planer type speakers have a special advantage at shows where you can't control the environment much and want to have to good sound for multiple people....

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Old 09-16-2009, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Morgan View Post

I thought the projector and screen were superb, the best at the show, but the audio ruined it for me. The room was simply tooo loud. I agree that the room was too small for the speakers. I just wish someone would have told Cinepro that the answer was not to turn it up louder.

A few years back I believe Cinepro teamed with JVC and I had to get up and leave due to the extreme loudness. I had a couple guys PM me saying this was unfortunate at the Cineramax demo since the picture was fantastic.

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Old 09-16-2009, 09:28 AM
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I found the audio was loud but to my ears it was not harsh sounding. It sounded pretty crisp and clean to me. Just my 2 cents.

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