A sign of the future. - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-04-2009, 01:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

That is actually already done in many cases.

What you may find interesting is that the current 4k machines actually need more defocus than the 2k DLP units as they have more serious issues to contend with. I believe that will change fairly soon with the new TI platform.

That doesn't surprise me now, but again, I want things to improve, and I'm exicted about 4K dlp, even though I'm not generally the biggest fan of DLP.

I am really most aghast at IMAX trying to to 2K digital, that's really insulting to me compared to how amazing IMAX film looks. THAT is a cruel joke!


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Out of interest, as you keep referring to closer viewing distances....what sort of viewing distances, in screen widths or heights, are we talking about.

Let's say 1.0 screen widths at least, down to maybe .75 as quite close. There will definitely be closer seats in the theater, but I don't worry so much about sitting THAT close, but I want to sit at least at 1.0 comfortably and see a smooth image, and ideally a sharp one too (eventually!). I mean, too close, and you've got worse problems to deal with like screen perf and other things on smaller screens.

I think I sat probably close to about .5 screen widths or closer once at the local Cinerama for a 70mm presentation of 2001, and it was glorious. 35mm would show weaknesses/softness that close, but it wouldn't be distracting like trying to watch a 2K digital that close.

The softness and grain doesn't bother me as much as seeing structures that pull me out of the film. At this time, I would rather have a soft 35mm picture than a sharper picture where I can see pixels. That's my preference, and I think a lot of people might not agree with that (a lot of people don't like grain either), but I fully enjoy the film experience, despite its weaknesses similar to the way I enjoy vinyl despite its enormous weaknesses as well.
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Old 10-04-2009, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

It won't and it doesn't. I've said it before 2K is a garbage replacement for 35mm film. .... Heck I'd go so far as to say 2K has a hard time keeping up with a high quality 16mm print. But maybe that's a little exaggerated...

I watched The National Parks last week on my modest 720 projector from a 1.9x viewing distance. I noticed a quite a bit of grain in many shots. Didn't seem like 35mm or HD. Sure enough, according to the October American Cinematographer it was super 16. The best shots were scan of old, presumably 4x5 negatives or prints from such negatives.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

The softness and grain doesn't bother me as much as seeing structures that pull me out of the film.

People differ. I once was unfortunate to sit at about 0.75x of screen width (arrived late). Not only did I nearly get whiplash from following the action from one side to the other, the film grains looked as big as baseballs. Took me right out of the movie.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GI Joe Sixpack View Post

People differ. I once was unfortunate to sit at about 0.75x of screen width (arrived late). Not only did I nearly get whiplash from following the action from one side to the other, the film grains looked as big as baseballs. Took me right out of the movie.

GI Joe the Screens perfs being multiple larger then film grain should have been even more annoying. I have to site far enough back to not see any perfs as you said it pulls you out of the story.

Kodak once did a white paper and found people preferred viewing with their head level looking straight ahead and felt more involved in the movie. Looking up on the other hand and moving your head plays with your equilibrium. Good for a free effect if watching Twister.

On a side note: 16mm will always appear more grainy then 35mm because of its smaller aperture .
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Old 10-05-2009, 02:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GI Joe Sixpack View Post

People differ. I once was unfortunate to sit at about 0.75x of screen width (arrived late). Not only did I nearly get whiplash from following the action from one side to the other, the film grains looked as big as baseballs. Took me right out of the movie.

Definitely. I am just providing some context behind my opinions, because not everyone will agree about how close they'd like to sit, about whether they'd prefer a "sharp" picture or a smoother picture, and whether film grain is or isn't distracting. If someone has different subjective tastes and opinions, it may lead them to different conclusions, such as a preference for a 2K projector with higher MTF and no blurring, even if they can see display structure, over a smoother but perhaps softer film presentation. And I can understand that. I just disagree with it, but there isn't really any argument to be had because it's like arguing about what kinds of foods we like. It's just what we like for really no other reason than "just because." Why don't I like eggplant? Who knows.
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:43 PM
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Why don't I like eggplant? Who knows.

In my case it's beets. Yuck.
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:57 PM
 
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In my case it's beets. Yuck.

I think you have to have lived through the Great Depression or something to like beets! BLECH!
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

LOL . . .

Always nice when you try to compare the real world - digital cinema . . . . with the theoritical world of what a 35mm print is supposed to look like . . . and doesn't.

Todays 35mm prints look like crap. And that is understandable. 4th or 5th generation step down, along with high speed printing, is not going to produce a stellar image. They stop making show prints for new films years ago.

AFAIK, the average theater today is approx 300 to 400 seats. You aren't going to find a 50 foot screen in that sized theater.

If you don't think that people go to the theater to see a movie, those that are watching HD at home and think; "my picture is sharper than that," then you took an exit off the highway of American values.

And yes, the color space is higher (not much if the DC is 12 bit) but I have come to learn that the human eye is not super sensitive to color changes (hues) which is one of the benefits of a higher color space.

As far as 70mm? There are what? Something like 200 films ever made in that process (not counting IMAX films) out of over 100,000 films made. It was a special process at a special time - when Hollywood experimented with the best available film process and needed to because theaters were HUGE back in the day. 2000, 3000 even 5000 seat theaters were in major cities in the USA.

No real need to go beyond 4K for DC. Good 4K. Great 4K. Let the Japanese fool around with their Super Hi Vision format. Maybe it will become the next IMAX (special venue presentation of image and sound).

Maybe I have fallen out of love with the soft, grainy image that projected 35mm looks like today - IMO. And I go to the best theater I can - Muvico.

Our largest theaters in my area are about 264 seats, save for the IMAX (which we actually have a film based version here). They claim to be just a few feet short of the IMAX screen. The average are about 100-150 seats. I know that each city will vary and a larger one will most likely have bigger venues.

Our best theater is the Rave Motion Pictures which is brand new and uses all digital, Christie projectors. The most amazing theater experience I've seen (and conversely, the only 3D movie I've seen implemented well and enjoyed) in color, image and sound was Coraline. All other theaters in my area use film AFAIK. I think our AMC is switching to Sony digital projectors soon though, but I need to call and verify that. The other theaters are at least 5 years older.

I go to the Rave as much as I can for movies that would benefit from a good projector because it's the only theater I can count on to produce a good image consistently. Films released in IMAX I'll go see at the IMAX and comedies and dramas I just hit up the closer theater. The rave is about 40 miles round trip from where I'm at.

I believe the experts on here when they say Film is better but I have yet (since I grew up and started to pay attention to image quality) to see one that performs better than the Christie projectors. It's been said that the film presentation depends on the quality of the print and proper maintenance performed on the projector. It' very true. I don't trust our local cinemas when it comes to that.

I guess the point to this post is to let you know I look forward to digital improving resolution and image because film projectors can vary too much.

Lee, I often go home to the Miami area. Could recommend a good location that has film projection done right? Then I would love to be a fan of film again if I could be proven wrong.

Just so you know I usually sit about 1-1.5 sw's away.
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Then youre still mistaken.

The lack of pixel structure of film does indeed allow for closer seating distance, but a commercial 35mm presentation has significantly less detail than a 2k DCP.

The MTF of a DCI machine, and a good domestic unit, is well ahead of an commercial 35mm capability. The lower small area contrast of a 35mm system, which is MFT anyway, results in significant loss of detail.

I think the full resolution MTF shots I posted, taken from a Lumis, were a revelation to many people.

Being able to sit closer to an image, without pixel structure, does not mean it has higher resolution, or more detail. If it did, all our displays would simply comprise a single gigantic pixel. If I smeared Vaseline on the lens of my old HT5k I bet you could go nose to screen with no pixel structure.

Lack of visible structure, as an isolated metric, is no guarantee of a great image....far from it

Don't get me wrong, I love film and that's why I have a 35mm system. There are some things that film does better, but resolution, or detail, isn't one of them.

CM, do you have a link to the images you posted. I would love to see them.

BTW, where do you get prints of movies for your 35MM get up?
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

Our largest theaters in my area are about 264 seats, save for the IMAX (which we actually have a film based version here). They claim to be just a few feet short of the IMAX screen. The average are about 100-150 seats. I know that each city will vary and a larger one will most likely have bigger venues.

Our best theater is the Rave Motion Pictures which is brand new and uses all digital, Christie projectors. The most amazing theater experience I've seen (and conversely, the only 3D movie I've seen implemented well and enjoyed) in color, image and sound was Coraline. All other theaters in my area use film AFAIK. I think our AMC is switching to Sony digital projectors soon though, but I need to call and verify that. The other theaters are at least 5 years older.

I go to the Rave as much as I can for movies that would benefit from a good projector because it's the only theater I can count on to produce a good image consistently. Films released in IMAX I'll go see at the IMAX and comedies and dramas I just hit up the closer theater. The rave is about 40 miles round trip from where I'm at.

I believe the experts on here when they say Film is better but I have yet (since I grew up and started to pay attention to image quality) to see one that performs better than the Christie projectors. It's been said that the film presentation depends on the quality of the print and proper maintenance performed on the projector. It' very true. I don't trust our local cinemas when it comes to that.

I guess the point to this post is to let you know I look forward to digital improving resolution and image because film projectors can vary too much.

Lee, I often go home to the Miami area. Could recommend a good location that has film projection done right? Then I would love to be a fan of film again if I could be proven wrong.

Just so you know I usually sit about 1-1.5 sw's away.

Like I said - when I go see a film presentation, I either go to a Muvico theater or to my local IMAX theater.

https://www.muvico.com/

On another note - I notice that no one has talked about what happens to a 35mm print as it is continually shown 4 or 5 times a day. The first presentation (brand new print) is not going to look the same as the 40th presentation - but that is not an issue with DC.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

On another note - I notice that no one has talked about what happens to a 35mm print as it is continually shown 4 or 5 times a day. The first presentation (brand new print) is not going to look the same as the 40th presentation - but that is not an issue with DC.

Lee it depends on the projectionist.

http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb...c;f=1;t=009963
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:24 PM
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Here PI$$ING on Film's grave.... , , .
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Old 10-06-2009, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

CM, do you have a link to the images you posted. I would love to see them.

There was some sort of photo bucket malfunction, so the images are no longer there. Most people on here saw them, and were very impressed. The technical images i was referring to were close ups of things like alternating lines of single pixels. They showed almost perfect geometry and extreme inter pixel contrast. MC and CA were outstanding

I have a second Lumis now, and will post similar images when I get time...probably over the weekend or next week. Many people may have read myself, Alan, Art etc comment on the quality of the onboard VP on Sim2 units. I also hope to post some shots of the scaling engine in action that will show why many of us dumped our high end external VP units.

There are still some screen shots, for what they are worth, remaining here.........http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ssance&page=14

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Old 10-06-2009, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Lee it depends on the projectionist.

http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb...c;f=1;t=009963

That forum has been a life saver for me.

It is also a reminder of just how many, totally anal, obsessive whack jobs are out there...........Thankfully.

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Old 10-08-2009, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

AFAIK, the average theater today is approx 300 to 400 seats. You aren't going to find a 50 foot screen in that sized theater.

That's strange. My local Cineplex has 50' wide screens in 300 seat theaters and 60' screens in the 400+ seat theaters.

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Old 10-08-2009, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

CM, do you have a link to the images you posted. I would love to see them.

I just noticed some are actually still there. The absolute best, at full resolution, are gone, but Im redoing similar ones soon.

The ones that are still there show outstanding convergence and no visible CA. Huge small area contrast (MTF) is apparent.........with no pixel width reduction or pixel geometry issues.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...issance&page=9

There's also an image on the page after that one.

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Old 10-08-2009, 11:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

That's strange. My local Cineplex has 50' wide screens in 300 seat theaters and 60' screens in the 400+ seat theaters.

What is the name of that Cineplex and it's location that you speak of?
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Old 10-08-2009, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

What is the name of that Cineplex and it's location that you speak of?

It is the Cineplex Colossus Woodbridge, Ontario. I'm actually close to the managers and they gave me a printout of all the screen sizes.

6 theaters with 400 -447 seats. Screen widths range from 54'-64'.

10 theaters with 300-390 seats. Screen widths range from 46'-49'.

2 theaters with under 300 seats. Screen width 43' wide.

And 1 IMAX theater. Actually their IMAX room is designed so that there's no keystone adjustment needed. Screen width is 86'.

Personally, I prefer 35mm over digital. That may be because I haven't experienced anything other than Christie machines. The Christie is good, but I prefer the smoothness of a good 35mm image.

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Old 10-08-2009, 03:32 PM
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O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

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Old 10-08-2009, 03:39 PM
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Woooo! Sing that anthem Mr. Machine

What can I say. The country that is responsible for IMAX(not the digital NOMAX), can deliver the goods

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Old 10-09-2009, 11:42 AM
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If it ever happened, I'd only need 2 things......

A phone, to order beer and pizza, and a steady supply of incontinence diapers.

or just get something along these lines...


Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
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Old 10-09-2009, 11:53 AM
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As an aside, current sources are a long way from showing the full potential of today machines. I posted a number of times what some digital dailies looked like on my HT5000.....totally mind blowing.

This gets to the heart of the matter. when people keep raving about wanting 4k, it is just not going to happen. the simple fact is that we can get SO MUCH BETTER out of the content from better and better codecs, and removing of much of the processing.

as well, when our resident barco lunatic goes on about a DCI machine and looking at dailies... the reality is that it SHOULD look better than your everyday 2k.

a few years back i was doing something and we setup a sony G90, with some betacam 1st gen rank transfers. just about anybody who looked at it SWORE it was HD. but it was just good ole NTSC. and that is the reality. if we had gotten access to uncompressed full spectrum content, the race for HD would have been much less hurried. but of course, the storage medium was just not practical.

We have so far to go in how good HD can look. both inthe content and the displays that in ten years from now, looking at some early BD on a current 2k machine will look like NTSC to HD.

One other point that helps illustrate this is that as many have noticed, newer,and better projectors sometimes look worse in the same system. not that the display is lower quality, but that the newer one shows even more how bad the media is. i will not get into specifics on my system as model names would get me barred from the forums, however a while back i had an XGA "business" projector. and it looked great (compared to the TV) and we loved it for movie nights, etc. then we got a nice inexpensive 2k machine. and the reality is that while some content looks spectactular, the reality is that much looks (in some ways) worse. because now we see all the artifacts and such that were previously hidden.

And i suspect that this will go on for a while. in 2-3 years, maybe we will be at that point where it is determined that the BD folks and the broadcasters really need to clean it all up, but in the interim, we will be playing a leapfrog game. and it is a long way to the finish line.

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Old 10-09-2009, 12:33 PM
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or just get something along these lines...


Dude, I thought you promised never to post photos of my HT.

That is one serious control center. Im off to call my installer.

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Old 10-09-2009, 12:46 PM
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since the are is tiled around you, you can just get hosed off every once in a while, and you can do some cool acoustic things with the placement.

better get a copy of Ice Station Zebra!!!

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Old 10-09-2009, 01:55 PM
 
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Filmmakers object to using cheaper tools

Quote:


Creative community prefer to use own equipment

FRANKFURT, Germany — Filmmakers want to use their own tools — and resent having to take the cheap way out. That was the message from cinematographers, editors, visual effects artists and animators gathered here for the 12th annual eDIT Filmmakers Festival.

Veteran cinematographer Ricardo Aronovich, on hand to accept the Imago European Federation of Cinematographers Tribute Award, said that many producers are requiring cinematographers to use digital cameras.

“In my particular case, a year ago it was the Red imposed upon me,” he said. “Cinematographers should be allowed to choose the camera that they use.”

While producers are looking to cut costs, Aronovich rejected the argument that digital is less costly. “What you don’t spend on film stock, you will spend on postproduction,” he said.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/...947938f3cf56f3
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