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post #1 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Major film projector manufacture shuts down production of film equipment.
Ouch.

 

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post #2 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 08:44 AM
 
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No surprise with the popularity of DC.

I am sure we will see the same notice from Strong- Ballantyne soon.
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post #3 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Major film projector manufacture shuts down production of film equipment.
Ouch.

Don't you just love my sense of timing.

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post #4 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 02:54 PM
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Don't you just love my sense of timing.

Is this that thing about putting a film set up in your theater ? I wonder if the intelligencia will stop using the term" it was a great film" now.

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post #5 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 02:56 PM
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Do you mean your sense and timing?

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post #6 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 02:57 PM
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At least people will continue to get service and a healthy spares inventory for the foreseeable future.
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post #7 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Is this that thing about putting a film set up in your theater ?

Exactly

I think film is safe for a while yet though.

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post #8 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Do you mean your sense and timing?

Who let the ankle biters in?

Timing is fine, sense is probably shot to sh1t.

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post #9 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 04:27 PM
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Hey. Send me an email at markhalich@yahoo.com. I have a feeling you will be in DC tomorrow. I`ll buy you lunch if you want to get together.

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post #10 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't you just love my sense of timing.

Kinoton/Strong/Century are bigger players and I hope not going away any time soon. I did like the Christie sealed Ultramittent.
35mm Film still offers a superior image to the best consumer HD. Until the authoring studios eliminate the use of edge enhancement and DNR ( erasing detail ) as a band aid to enhance content thinking J6P loves it film will always have an advantage.
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post #11 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 07:03 PM
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Progress is our most important product was GE`s slogan when I was a kid. Digital cinema projection is a big step backward. But there is no stopping progress.

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post #12 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 08:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Progress is are most important product was GE`s slogan when I was a kid. Digital cinema projection is a big step backward. But there is no stopping progress.

I don't see where DC projection is a big step backwards. Can you explain your opinion on this issue please.
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post #13 of 55 Old 10-02-2009, 09:57 PM
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Am I way off wishing hat BDs are released same day as movies in the theater, but just at a premium. I mean I would easily pay $60 for a new release movie on BD if it meant I could watch it at home on BD rather then got ot the cinema. Simply charge the price of 2 movie tickets and a BD...i would happily pay.

I know its sort of off topic, but it seems like a great way to off set the loss in theaters today.
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post #14 of 55 Old 10-03-2009, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by vancouver View Post

Am I way off wishing hat BDs are released same day as movies in the theater, but just at a premium. I mean I would easily pay $60 for a new release movie on BD if it meant I could watch it at home on BD rather then got ot the cinema. Simply charge the price of 2 movie tickets and a BD...i would happily pay.

I know its sort of off topic, but it seems like a great way to off set the loss in theaters today.

There have been moves afoot for a while now, that have yet to come to fruition, to provide a day and date HD option via cable/satellite. The initial thinking was around $50 for a once only viewing.

I would be on that like a Pit-bull on a pork chop.

I'll believe it when I see it.

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post #15 of 55 Old 10-03-2009, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Hey. Send me an email at markhalich@yahoo.com. I have a feeling you will be in DC tomorrow. I`ll buy you lunch if you want to get together.

Mark, Thanks for the kind offer. Unfortunately I wont be in DC today as I now work to a different schedule.

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post #16 of 55 Old 10-03-2009, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

There have been moves afoot for a while now, that have yet to come to fruition, to provide a day and date HD option via cable/satellite. The initial thinking was around $50 for a once only viewing.

I would be on that like a Pit-bull on a pork chop.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Wow me too. For a while this has been a short coming of having a theater in my home. I love it but often guests simply don't want to see a three to six month old movie no matter how good it looks or sounds.

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post #17 of 55 Old 10-03-2009, 06:22 AM
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Art. That a great reason for sporting event parties in your HT. Especially during college and pro feetball season. Pay per view 1080p over D TV etc might be an option or 1080i FIOS.

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post #18 of 55 Old 10-03-2009, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Wow me too. For a while this has been a short coming of having a theater in my home. I love it but often guests simply don't want to see a three to six month old movie no matter how good it looks or sounds.

Art

The British Sky TV company, who are absolutely massive, tried to get it up and running a couple of years back and came close.. They had a proposed fee of £30 ($60 at the time) on a pay per view basis, one view only, and had all the technical issues sorted. The studios were interested, at a rate of $100, Im sure a compromise could have been worked out. Unfortunately the N.American service providers screwed it up, as they couldn't agree on various issues. At that point it became impossible to hold a consortium together, and Hollywood walked away.

I happily pay whatever it took, as would many here, but unless the fee was acceptable to a significant number of people, it would never fly.

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post #19 of 55 Old 10-03-2009, 07:16 AM
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If it ever happened, I'd only need 2 things......

A phone, to order beer and pizza, and a steady supply of incontinence diapers.

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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

I don't see where DC projection is a big step backwards. Can you explain your opinion on this issue please.

It currently looks sh**ty compared to film projection.

But inevitably things will improve. The first digital projectors were a HUGE step back too, but now they're forward progress.
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post #21 of 55 Old 10-03-2009, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

It currently looks sh**ty compared to film projection.

But inevitably things will improve. The first digital projectors were a HUGE step back too, but now they're forward progress.

In thoery I find it hard to believe the fill factor from a 2k projector is expected to deliver a seamless image on a 50 foot screen when Pixel structure can be seen 8 feet wide from 1080p displays.
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post #22 of 55 Old 10-03-2009, 03:55 PM
 
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In thoery I find it hard to believe the fill factor from a 2k projector is expected to deliver a seamless image on a 50 foot screen when Pixel structure can be seen 8 feet wide from 1080p displays.

It won't and it doesn't. I've said it before 2K is a garbage replacement for 35mm film. You need 4K at least. That's a two-fold advantage, you can match the lack of structure of 35mm film for closer viewing ratios, AND you get much higher MTF. Yeah you get good MTF at 2K sure, and arguably can match or exceed a decent 35mm print, but you also get a whole bunch of added noise (pixel structure) which looks like crap unless you're sitting rather far away. Heck I'd go so far as to say 2K has a hard time keeping up with a high quality 16mm print. But maybe that's a little exaggerated...

And then throw 70mm into the mix and 2K is a pathetic joke in comparison.

But I have hope that much higher resolution projectors (higher than 4K) are inevitable, and will make 70mm equivalent quality possible and available far more widely than the rare and occassional showings at special theaters these days.
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post #23 of 55 Old 10-03-2009, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Heck I'd go so far as to say 2K has a hard time keeping up with a high quality 16mm print. But maybe that's a little exaggerated...

Not really. Ive seen 16mm 30 feet wide at the George Eastman house that looked like 35. I had no idea it was 16. Film also has the wider color space both 16/35 that really makes a visual difference.
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post #24 of 55 Old 10-03-2009, 05:11 PM
 
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LOL . . .

Always nice when you try to compare the real world - digital cinema . . . . with the theoritical world of what a 35mm print is supposed to look like . . . and doesn't.

Todays 35mm prints look like crap. And that is understandable. 4th or 5th generation step down, along with high speed printing, is not going to produce a stellar image. They stop making show prints for new films years ago.

AFAIK, the average theater today is approx 300 to 400 seats. You aren't going to find a 50 foot screen in that sized theater.

If you don't think that people go to the theater to see a movie, those that are watching HD at home and think; "my picture is sharper than that," then you took an exit off the highway of American values.

And yes, the color space is higher (not much if the DC is 12 bit) but I have come to learn that the human eye is not super sensitive to color changes (hues) which is one of the benefits of a higher color space.

As far as 70mm? There are what? Something like 200 films ever made in that process (not counting IMAX films) out of over 100,000 films made. It was a special process at a special time - when Hollywood experimented with the best available film process and needed to because theaters were HUGE back in the day. 2000, 3000 even 5000 seat theaters were in major cities in the USA.

No real need to go beyond 4K for DC. Good 4K. Great 4K. Let the Japanese fool around with their Super Hi Vision format. Maybe it will become the next IMAX (special venue presentation of image and sound).

Maybe I have fallen out of love with the soft, grainy image that projected 35mm looks like today - IMO. And I go to the best theater I can - Muvico.
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AFAIK, the average theater today is approx 300 to 400 seats. You aren't going to find a 50 foot screen in that sized theater.

So? It's not the size of the screen that matters, but how close you're sitting relative to any given screen size as a ratio. And it is not difficult at all, even in smaller auditoriums to sit halfway to the front or even closer, and 2k just doesn't support that.

Quote:


Todays 35mm prints look like crap. And that is understandable. 4th or 5th generation step down, along with high speed printing, is not going to produce a stellar image. They stop making show prints for new films years ago.

In an average multiplex I can't argue with that statement. But that doesn't mean that all the added noise of 2K structure somehow is off the hook. Sure the MTF of an average 35mm print in a multiplex isn't that great, but so what? You can still sit really close to it, the only weakness is it looks a little softer than it might.

And maybe I'm spoiled, but I regularly see pretty excellent 35mm presentations around here. And I'm looking at a spot-on accurate RS20 which is basically equivalent to 2K, and I certainly wouldn't say that it meets or exceeds what I see from 35mm in the theater.

I'm not willing to bow to the lowest common denominator. Yes there are a lot of mediocre and downright awful 35mm presentations. But having seen a lot of 35mm done quite right in terms of presentation anyway, 2K/1080p is a joke in comparison.
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post #26 of 55 Old 10-04-2009, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

And I'm looking at a spot-on accurate RS20 which is basically equivalent to 2K, and I certainly wouldn't say that it meets or exceeds what I see from 35mm in the theater.

Holy sh1t .....your suggestion that an RS20 is basically the equivalent of a DCI system is one of the most preposterous things I've seen posted here in quite a while.

I bought an RS20 and I would agree with your view that it fails to exceed the performance of a good cinema, but the RS20 is a very long way short of the best domestic units......a very long way short. Its a good, low cost, bang for the buck, entry level unit. Its hardly the pinnacle of digital projection. I currently own, and have previously owned, digital machines that absolutely obliterate any commercial cinema film presentation. Many others here are in the same position.

Not only that, you don't have content to display on your RS20 that's even close to a DCI DCP. As an aside, current sources are a long way from showing the full potential of today machines. I posted a number of times what some digital dailies looked like on my HT5000.....totally mind blowing.


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I'm not willing to bow to the lowest common denominator.

Thats exactly what you did when you tried to compare the best 35mm presentation with a digital machine that costs less than the lens of most genuine high end digital units.

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But having seen a lot of 35mm done quite right in terms of presentation anyway, 2K/1080p is a joke in comparison.

As someone who owns a 35mm system that is superior the vast majority of commercial cinemas, and is professionally maintained and operated to a higher standard, its very clear that its the above comment that's closer to being the joke.

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Holy sh1t .....your suggestion that an RS20 is basically the equivalent of a DCI system is one of the most preposterous things I've seen posted here in quite a while.

I bought an RS20 and I would agree with your view that it fails to exceed the performance of a good cinema, but the RS20 is a very long way short of the best domestic units......a very long way short. Its a good, low cost, bang for the buck, entry level unit. Its hardly the pinnacle of digital projection. I currently own, and have previously owned, digital machines that absolutely obliterate any commercial cinema film presentation. Many others here are in the same position.

I was and am discussing the resolution weakness, not content and other issues with the RS20. In fact, a sharper unit would be worse in this regard than the RS20 because it better reveals the structure which is rather soft on this machine. BD is a FAR cry from DCI content, and that's an entirely different discussion than the resolution issues I have with 2K. All I intended to convey was that 1080 resolution is very close to 2K resolution, and neither are enough to support the close viewing distances of film.

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Not only that, you don't have content to display on your RS20 that's even close to a DCI DCP. As an aside, current sources are a long way from showing the full potential of today machines. I posted a number of times what some digital dailies looked like on my HT5000.....totally mind blowing.

Thats exactly what you did when you tried to compare the best 35mm presentation with a digital machine that costs less than the lens of most genuine high end digital units.

Except that I didn't make that comparison.
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post #28 of 55 Old 10-04-2009, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I was and am discussing the resolution weakness

Then youre still mistaken.

The lack of pixel structure of film does indeed allow for closer seating distance, but a commercial 35mm presentation has significantly less detail than a 2k DCP.

The MTF of a DCI machine, and a good domestic unit, is well ahead of an commercial 35mm capability. The lower small area contrast of a 35mm system, which is MFT anyway, results in significant loss of detail.

I think the full resolution MTF shots I posted, taken from a Lumis, were a revelation to many people.

Being able to sit closer to an image, without pixel structure, does not mean it has higher resolution, or more detail. If it did, all our displays would simply comprise a single gigantic pixel. If I smeared Vaseline on the lens of my old HT5k I bet you could go nose to screen with no pixel structure.

Lack of visible structure, as an isolated metric, is no guarantee of a great image....far from it

Don't get me wrong, I love film and that's why I have a 35mm system. There are some things that film does better, but resolution, or detail, isn't one of them.

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post #29 of 55 Old 10-04-2009, 12:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Then youre still mistaken.

The lack of pixel structure of film does indeed allow for closer seating distance, but a commercial 35mm presentation has significantly less detail than a 2k DCP.

I alluded to that much previously:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

In an average multiplex I can't argue with that statement. But that doesn't mean that all the added noise of 2K structure somehow is off the hook. Sure the MTF of an average 35mm print in a multiplex isn't that great, but so what? You can still sit really close to it, the only weakness is it looks a little softer than it might.


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The MTF of a DCI machine, and a good domestic unit, is well ahead of an commercial 35mm capability. The lower small area contrast of a 35mm system, which is MFT anyway, results in significant loss of detail.

Fine. That doesn't mean that 2K projector doesn't add a bunch of noise on top of that which I object to. I said that above.

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Being able to sit closer to an image does not mean it has higher resolution or more detail. If it did, all our displays would simply comprise a single gigantic pixel.

I didn't say that it did. Again, you're interpreting what I said about "resolution weakness" in comparison to 35mm which I didn't intend in that fashion, but that 2K digital projector doesn't have enough resolution to match 35mm in a way that I find important: lack of visible display structure at rather close viewing angles. You could blur a 2K display so it has low MTF, and if done conservatively I might actually consider it an improvement if you are sitting close.

What I want is the best of both worlds. With 4K or higher, you can have the MTF you're striving for, but without all the added noise (structure) of a lower resolution digital display which is crap at closer viewing distances. If you only have 2K, you're either stuck with the noise, or you're forced to blur the image(either optically, or just by sitting farther away) and then you lose the MTF advantage.

Quote:


Don't get me wrong, I love film and that's why I have a 35mm system. There are some things that film does better, but resolution, or detail, isn't one of them. Many of films advantages are moot anyway, as the print is simply derived from a digital master.

That's great, but I want the move to DCI to be an unabashed step forward, not a step forward in one direction and a step backward in another. I am exaggerating my displeasure for effect, but I do not see 2K as a fully adequate replacement for 35mm film. It is not enough resolution if you're sitting close because you can see the display structure and this is a bigger issue for me than a softness of film in comparison. If it were 4K or beyond, you could have both advantages, and I'm pushing for the best possible, not simply what is cheap and convenient and easy to do and "good enough" compared to the garbage that passes for 35mm at average multiplexes where the "projectionists" are teens picking their noses and flicking their boogers on the film...
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post #30 of 55 Old 10-04-2009, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

You could blur a 2K display so it has low MTF, and if done conservatively I might actually consider it an improvement if you are sitting close.

That is actually already done in many cases.

What you may find interesting is that the current 4k machines actually need more defocus than the 2k DLP units as they have more serious issues to contend with. I believe that will change fairly soon with the new TI platform.

Out of interest, as you keep referring to closer viewing distances....what sort of viewing distances, in screen widths or heights, are we talking about.

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