A Moon of Saturn in a Boutique Hotel ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 84 Old 04-19-2010, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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A Hotel with Studio Connections has commissioned from us the first of two very unorthodox DCP viewing zones:

A 3-D Viewing rear projection lounge ( too bad 150" plasmas are not dcp compliant).









And a 17 foot wide Oceanside Tiki Bar Projection scheme.


Maybe they let me chronicle the builds if it goes through.
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post #2 of 84 Old 04-19-2010, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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GDC is the only digital cinema server that is designed with Quad HDSDI outputs to feed dual projectors ( for either 3D or as in this case Dual or split viewing zones).

The only problem is splitting the 8 channel Aes digital audio and sending it along with 2 3G hdsdi's and a hdmi whdcp, rs-232 and ethernet 1,500 feet away to a glorified air conditioned
Dog House over Fiber Optic.
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post #3 of 84 Old 04-19-2010, 09:49 AM
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Peter,
You might have answered this elsewhere but are you getting DCI content into your clients homes with recent releases ?

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post #4 of 84 Old 04-19-2010, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I was involved in a market study for a major studio, it may happen although there is resistance from NATO (the theater association not the Military alliance).

Why am I involved with it?

It is just that my clients happen to be in the business (producers) or in the case of this hotel, they are involved with 17 studios and throw pre-release parties in their private clubs, in Ny, London, La and now South Beach.

Kind a cool...

But let me tell you Art, in my opinion not having access to this content is no reason not to look at DCP projectors as for Blu-ray they are still king PQ wise overall.

Perhaps we will do something special this year in Atlanta to convince some of you...

Certainly for 3D having the light available on tap greatly helps.
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post #5 of 84 Old 04-19-2010, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

I was involved in a market study for a major studio, it may happen although there is resistance from NATO (the theater association not the Military alliance).

Why am I involved with it?

It is just that my clients happen to be in the business (producers) or in the case of this hotel, they are involved with 17 studios and throw pre-release parties in their private clubs, in Ny, London, La and now South Beach.

Kind a cool...

But let me tell you Art, in my opinion not having access to this content is no reason not to look at DCP projectors as for Blu-ray they are still king PQ wise overall.

Perhaps we will do something special this year in Atlanta to convince some of you...

Certainly for 3D having the light available on tap greatly helps.

My children have football on Wednesdays this fall so I'm cool for CEDIA and booked a room a few days ago. I hope you have a show there.

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post #6 of 84 Old 04-19-2010, 02:13 PM
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Peter I encountered a German Firm at IBC a few years ago who build DCI jpeg 2000 cards, primarily an OEM product so the single unit price was a reltively high 7K, think we discussed this before in one these threads. So, you may investigate secure dci server / projector connectivity cards, and have one made. Those Panasonic plasma's don't come with modular input slots for nothing (as to how secure this is;-).).
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post #7 of 84 Old 04-20-2010, 01:59 AM
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till the distribution from dci content for cinemas is not mady by dish
for sure home cinema user will get no dci content.

even if its there i not see it anytime soon an if its there it will be very very expensive.

its the same discusion we have about laser pr.
4 to 5 years ago everybody think laser is coming soon but the trues is till today
we not have it.

but its not a mistake to have a good cinema pr. today even without
dci material as the picture can be very very good with bds
and in some areas this pr. beats every home cinema pr.
and offer things that you may can use in the future some days
that the home cinema pr. not can.

for sample i have a first 3D BD Player with a first 3D disc and i work hard to
find a way to playback this content in 3D with my barco dp 2000 in full res.
at 2x 72 hz.
seams there is a way to do it but its not that easy.

no way with all expensive home cinema pr. that are on the market.
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post #8 of 84 Old 04-20-2010, 02:23 AM - Thread Starter
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This for the three d (the swiss army knife of 3D)Frame Packing in June (for BD3D)


This for the pre 4K scaling processing (yes edge enhancement with unsharp mask at 24fps)
Sony Cinealta 320 uses this scaler to make sharper images, I want to use it with the 4k Katyusha.

This for scaling to 4K ( and for eventually 4K 3D)


I LOVE DOREMI LABS!!!
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post #9 of 84 Old 04-20-2010, 02:42 AM
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doremi working on the software to get from the 1920x2205 24p
output that a 3D BD have to convert it to a format a cinema pr.
can handle with the dimension 3D converter.

that will take about 8 weeks.
than the dimension box will be a solution but the problem will be that the
dimension 3D box not have hdcp at there hdmi input!
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post #10 of 84 Old 04-20-2010, 02:56 AM - Thread Starter
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YOU CANNOT CHANGE Any DIGITAL FORMAT VIA HDMI OUTSIDE OF THE PROJECTOR.

The dimension 3-D box should be combined with the IMB, unfortunately it is two different departments at DRM and maybe the IMB is under heavy NDA's.
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post #11 of 84 Old 04-20-2010, 07:11 AM
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Peter I own a PremierViewPro HD. It outputs true 10 bit and I do love the image but it is not perfect. For the money it is a great value and the picture outperforms any consumer VP.
The Teranex VC300 is still the best, period. It has filters to correct for almost anything. Nothing touches the 300.
I get frustrated trying to convince consumer VP manufactures to add a few features ( Teranex inspired ) which will set them apart but they are stuck in the J6P world where sadly adding DNR ( destroying the image ) sells more boxes.

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post #12 of 84 Old 04-20-2010, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Alan the owners manual looks good (you do need an HDSDI ecosystem but that's ok).

Processing – Pressing this button opens a menu in Area 2 - as shown below - that allows the user to
access the following processing menus for the imageRestore applications:
• Source Selection
• Proc Amp Control
• Secondary Color Correction
• Detail Enhance
• Advanced Aperture Correction (option)
• Dirt Concealment (standard and motion compensated)
• Grain Reduction (spatial and motion compensated)
• Adaptive Sharpening Filter (motion compensated grain management)
• Noise Reduction
• Scratch Concealment
• Area Isolation
Teranex imageRestore User Manual
P. 29 of 72
VC300/VC600 - Processing Menu Button
VC200 - Processing Menu Button
imageRestore

It does look sweet in the Image Restore department (i don't really care about sd>>>hd I-I mean Ido but I don't) I want to sharpen each BD and save the prests for playback.

Imax does this but with a little bit of NR, I prefer just the sharpening part.

But Alan what happens to 1080p60? And I wonder what Impact 3d will have will it process frame packing BD3D? If so I'm in....
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post #13 of 84 Old 04-20-2010, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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You know that with the TI 2k4 IMB scaling these type of sharpness pre-processing boxes will be sorely needed to make the 4k image look photo-realistic.
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post #14 of 84 Old 04-20-2010, 11:50 AM
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Peter to early to answer the 3D concern. I am sure all video processors will share the same outcome be it good or bad. Time will tell.

The Teranex VC300 cannot process 1080P 60. There are work around for this, PM me.
For 1080p 24 I can make a bad BD look good and a great BD look jaw dropping. A DVD library will greatly benefit from the Teranex. Coldmachine is using one and I think he endorses it. The Teranex VC100 is also a nice machine but is lacking many of the filters that make the VC300 so unique. It is more on par with the PremierViewPro HD.
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post #15 of 84 Old 04-23-2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Coldmachine is using one and I think he endorses it.

I most certainly do, its an incredible machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

It does look sweet in the Image Restore department (i don't really care about sd>>>hd I-I mean Ido but I don't) I want to sharpen each BD and save the prests for playback.

Peter, you are probably sick of reading my posts regarding the quality of the on-board VP on Sim2 machines. I have always had a better image by going direct to the PJ, no matter how good the external unit was. Alan and I agreed on both those points on many occasions.

The VC300 changed that opinion. Alan nailed it when he said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

For 1080p 24 I can make a bad BD look good and a great BD look jaw dropping. A DVD library will greatly benefit from the Teranex.


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post #16 of 84 Old 04-23-2010, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Sold, come autumn I am going to ask TERANEX for a demo at the lab to show some deep pocket patrons. I want to re-capture the film grain badly. It's the only thing missing from the incredible latest tweaks to the SuperKontrast w/depth FX II(we increased the gradings of the adjustment 5 times for a better match to all Blu-rays).

The floor to ceiling wall to wall image in 1.85 ar is actually rescaling 1080p to 2048, YES. Blasphemy? No way, looks amazing) its insanely good but leaves me begging for more detail.











Well to create the ultimate RIG we are in need of that, the Doremi 3-D with RealD crystal eyes4, and a new fixed throw short lens, like the one we used at CEDIA. There is a $33,000 German lens ultra short throw that has me salivating.

It's going to be interesting experimenting with rear screen again which seems like we will. Now imagine a huge as$ rear screen.
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post #17 of 84 Old 04-26-2010, 11:33 AM
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Great fourm on 3D, new here on AVS...I work for VER and we are slowly getting on the 3D banwagon...The biggest issue we seem to have in the rental market of 3D projection support is the cost of components needed to make a project work.. The screens would be good for mabey 2 - 3 rentals at best before they are ruined so the rental price on a screen has to compinsate for that....I have been tring to convince the powers that be that the dolby solution is the only way for us to go, so we would not have to invest in so many screens to have them unusable after a few uses...Upgradeing our DC machines with dolby color wheels I think is the answer for that...Then they always throw up that the glasses cost too much and will lose the money saved on buying more expencive glasses...Anyone have any input on this how much are the glasses for dolby at bulk rates? how much does it cost to upgrade a DC projector with a dolby system?
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post #18 of 84 Old 04-26-2010, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Ho Captain LB,

Welcome ttf. Dolby glasses dropped in price to 17$ to the cinema chains. The problem is you will need a special CINETAL DOLBY color encoder that is about 10K in addition to the wheel. It is a great system for triple flash 48, I do not know how good it is for double flash 60 or if it will do triple flash 60. If it does , it's great!

You can see the rack mounted Cinetal depicted under the right minimonitor here:
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post #19 of 84 Old 05-04-2010, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like we need to find a moon name for this one ( I am going to go ahead and use a really good Saturn name on this one: PANDORA because it will be one heck of a 3D rig), we will be able to show you play by play and submit it to HE magazine, the rear-projection DCI system is proceeding ahead first for September 1st, the Tiki Lawn next January.

While the DNP alpha and mirror system would probably be the best quality, the budget on a commercial venture is never the same of the typical residential Saturn moon.

The sound system being not being high end notwithstanding (Onkyo pro pre , Bryston multichannel digital amp,and Dynaudio In walls) a state of the art SuperKontrast 2k with the Xpand 3-D in a rearpro rig with access to DCI content is going to be hot so it is definitely Moon Of Saturn Territory.

The Crestron Ipad application will be used to design the GUI for the Doremi cp-2000 server, satellite, bd, blackout shades, stage curtain, and lights.

To be able to approach the budget figure a Vutec system has been specked.

Never as elegant as the Stewart and DNP systems, this one needs a big wood platform to work. Hey whatever it takes...





The height of my soap box will be adjusted based on the actual screen height that fits.
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post #20 of 84 Old 05-05-2010, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Being an old art deco building being remodeled there is little room for screen height, so a team member sketched this.



The lower the screen the more difficult the sightlines are going to get.
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post #21 of 84 Old 05-05-2010, 07:25 AM
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Is there any plan for handling light coming off the screen, or is this a non issue with rear projection?
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post #22 of 84 Old 05-05-2010, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Tedd,

When the window treatments are opened or when the lights are on there is always light coming in from the viewing side that will affect the ansi inside the projection booth, we plan on not only lining the walls with 2" cotton to mute down the 60 db fan noise but also cover with black velvet to eliminate light reflections inside the booth.

The image on the viewer side used to be watchable with a 200 ansi lumen projector 15-20 years ago so with the superkontrast 2kw lamp 50%stepped down apertures it will look like a giant plasma or brighter.
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post #23 of 84 Old 05-05-2010, 12:01 PM
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Vutec are foil/film based screens not clouded acryllic screens aren't they, so there should be an anti-reflective foil/coating film on the front if one selects that option.
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post #24 of 84 Old 05-05-2010, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Vutec are foil/film based screens not clouded acryllic screens aren't they, so there should be an anti-reflective foil/coating film on the front if one selects that option.

Total thickness 1/4" 6.35 mm , 3 layers front and back anti-reflective medium charcoal diffusion.
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post #25 of 84 Old 05-06-2010, 06:07 PM
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Even clouded acryllic screens could have anti-reflective layers added, not sure how they get gain but there are clouded acryllic gain screens too. However coated/film layer screens already work with filmlayers onto a backing, given the the thickness I presume accryllic glass, it is easier for a manufacturer to offer a mix and match of layers. 6.35 mm sounds like a commercial grade screen, so budget concerns aren't that severe;-).

Starglass is two-three times the price of the Vutec?

Seen it (starglass 0.8) when it first came out at ISE, walked up to the booth the screen was behind another booth so when I turned the corner I was met by a stunning big 'plasma screen'. Some big Christie blasting from the back.
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post #26 of 84 Old 05-06-2010, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Star glass is shiny, that only works in a closed room, or outside at night.
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post #27 of 84 Old 05-12-2010, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Since this is my very first 3-D system, with 40 pairs of glasses and DCI it would be one heck of an intimate venue to enjoy avatar first class.

So Pandora it is.

And here are the early renderings of Pandora's box.







At the moment design is on hold to corroborate lens throw distance fitted on the actual projector with a 2048x1080 signal, the screen m,ost likely is going to have to widen for the 1.89 aspect ratio.

The racks are Lowell, same as a MRK from middle Atlantic at exactly half the price.

All speaker amplifiers and the subwoofers need to be connected to a fire alarm shunt recepatcles so that the audience can hear in case of an emergency, ah the world of commercial....







Next I will show a bit on how there is going to be remote control of the Barco Communicator Software and the GDC Server Playlist Manager Software on a wireless CRESTRON tablet. I believe that this feature along with being the first documented DCI Compliant Rear Projection SUPERKONTRAST makes Pandora one for the Digital Cinema Firsts Bible(r).
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post #28 of 84 Old 05-20-2010, 10:53 AM
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saw a 3d demo last week at a facility in germany near cologne. projectors were a pair of Barco XLM 30K's using the infitec system.

I found it lacking.

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post #29 of 84 Old 05-29-2010, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I chose these speakers with which I am familiar for their high power and double output of center channel.

PANDORAS BOX OPENS...

Before I fill you in on the physical trauma being effected on the projection room as we speak as the result of a last minute change order that adds air conditioning to a 200 person outdoor restaurant (but that basically eliminates our planned and pre-wired rack space in the projection room); before I show you images right out of the pyramids ( of men hand lugging 18"by 12" by 10" solid chunks of cement-wall down two flights of steps) will show you some of the system design for the audio, and the documentation on what was permitted and pre-wired under great rush. We will deal with the aftermath exhibit later.





This is the room rendering showing the Artison Masterpiece IN WALL Dual Mono center speakers, each of the four speakers in this main pair gets 250 watts of Bryston Power.



The subwoofers have 4 8 inch drivers each (X2) are in walls fed by the Artison subwoofer digital amp. Their back boxes are huge. Twice the height of what their drawing shows, these two boxes occupy the entire back seat of a medium sedan.They will flank the Bar area raised above baseboard level (which at the moment is a mystery).




This is an onkyo pro 9.2 channel config.

The height/wide, surround and surround rear channels are the artison in wall dipolar, they will wash the sound front and back to conform to the kilometric aspect ratio of the room.

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post #30 of 84 Old 05-29-2010, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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MiT our associates on the west Coast who perform all the custom Barco work For Us EXCLUSIVELY, totally coincidentally had been awarded the installation of the same Hotel's large capacity screening room in LA, which is going on line soon.

We are aiming to outperform in sound (no jbl cinema schreeching on the blackboard speakers here) and in picture, [We use Reald Cristal Eyes 4 Professional glasses they use Xpand,], they use a cinema screen with no gain and we use a rear projection screen with 1.8 gain (good for 3-D), we have a SuperkOntrast going in, that and the contrast advantage and smaller size in Pandora (the name of the project if you just tuned in), we will kick their butt.... audiovisually, in the spirit of friendly one-upsmanship.
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