Home AVR used in a commercial theater for audio decoding? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 05-01-2010, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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So I was in my authorized Pioneer dealer (only one on the Island I might add. As w/ most others there is only one authorized dealer for anything here) and I was BS'ing w/ the owners (two brothers that are really cool and have their hands in a lot of other brands like Bose. Again most here have their hands in not just one brand but others and corner the market making price competitiveness non exsistent). Sorry for the run on sentence.

Back on track...

They were telling me about how one of the Commercial Theaters here on Guam (We have three total. Two owned by the same company and another. This is the other I am refering to) uses Pioneer AVR's to decode the audio before it goes out to the amplifiers. I cant remember which model he said but it was a recent one. They weren't sure what the other theaters use.

Has anyone ever heard of this before?

This doesn't sound like common practice to me.
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post #2 of 13 Old 05-01-2010, 12:18 PM
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You can feed analog 8 channel to a consumer receiver, the problem is for film the pre processor has to have an 84 ms delay.

The latest revisions of the digital cinema servers have up to 100ms delays.

Those have a 8 or 16 channel aes ebu digital output. There are many 8 channel dacs for these, that could be used with consumer receivers/prepros. For example the Hotel rearpro screenig room system I am pitching wil have a doremi cp-2000 and 8 channel adacs feeding the new Onkyo pro preprocessor, the necessary 84 millisecond delay in the server now allows this, early last year you could not have done that.
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post #3 of 13 Old 05-02-2010, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post


Has anyone ever heard of this before?

This doesn't sound like common practice to me.


No its not and like Cineramax has said, you need allot more delay than a HT unit normally provides due to distance from screen to seating.

I did hear a furby once from a Yamaha dealer claiming the same thing, that Yamaha was the processor used in a Dolby equipped cinema. To which I informed him, Dolby would actually make their own commercial processors and license the decoder chip to manufactures like Yamaha for HT products. I think I burst his bubble that day.

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post #4 of 13 Old 05-02-2010, 11:51 AM
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While a home theater processor will work ( analog decoding ) it cannot deliver the same sonic benefits of a true cinema processor which were designed to decode specific cinema sound formats applying the proper NR and eq curves needed for Spectral Recording (SR) & Dolby Stereo.
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post #5 of 13 Old 05-02-2010, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Mark,

Funny you bring that up about dolby and all. That's how they get their claim that their theaters feature Dolby and DTS surround sound processing. But technically they never say "certified", just that it has the processing and signs are on all the doors showing Dolby or DTS symbols. Could they get in trouble for that?

Alan,

I'm not expert but hardly any of the theaters here sound very good to me. That's probably why. Most of the time it reminds me of the dollar cinemas. Places like that who can't afford the upkeep on their equipment. I miss the IMAX.
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post #6 of 13 Old 05-02-2010, 03:38 PM
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On another note as good as we think Home Cinema audio is to commercial Cinema they are in fact two completely different mixes. If you had the opportunity to listen to both in our Home Theater rooms you would be surprised how different the Cinema mix is. Im betting most would clearly prefer a Cinema analog track to BDs DD and never know it was not digital.
The Cinema mix delivers very hard lefts and rights and surround information. The separation is very distinct even in our small rooms compared to our home theater mix ( BDs etc ) which seam intended to deliver a blended sound field.
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post #7 of 13 Old 05-02-2010, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

Mark,

Funny you bring that up about dolby and all. That's how they get their claim that their theaters feature Dolby and DTS surround sound processing. But technically they never say "certified", just that it has the processing and signs are on all the doors showing Dolby or DTS symbols. Could they get in trouble for that?

Alan,

I'm not expert but hardly any of the theaters here sound very good to me. That's probably why. Most of the time it reminds me of the dollar cinemas. Places like that who can't afford the upkeep on their equipment. I miss the IMAX.

The cinema sound system is broken into 2 parts called chains. The A chain is the gear in cinema projection booth and the B chain is the cinema auditorium. If there is going to be a "weak link" it will be in the B chain. The processing is as good as it can get, damaged speakers and bad acoustics will just let that down.

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Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

On another note as good as we think Home Cinema audio is to commercial Cinema they are in fact two completely different mixes. If you had the opportunity to listen to both in our Home Theater rooms you would be surprised how different the Cinema mix is. Im betting most would clearly prefer a Cinema analog track to BDs DD and never know it was not digital.
The Cinema mix delivers very hard lefts and rights and surround information. The separation is very distinct even in our small rooms compared to our home theater mix ( BDs etc ) which seam intended to deliver a blended sound field.

Most members here think that the soundtracks we get on DVD/BD are the same as the cinema release. They are not. There is a commercial version and a consumer version. The consumer version has the surrounds attenuated by 3dB and LFE is mixed into the L and R fronts at -10dB. This is done for the fact that many HTs lack so far as what is required to play back at undistorted peaks of 105dB per channel.

I agree with Alan, sometimes a soundtrack does sound quite different at home (content wise) to what I've heard in the cinema. Again I would say that this is done due to the limiting factors of many HTs.

TRANSFORMERS was one soundtrack I was able to hear in both a commercial cinema and at home in the same 24 hour period. Whilst I was impressed that "mixes" sounded the same, there was still differences due to the arrays of the cinema verses diffuse speakers I used at home.

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post #8 of 13 Old 05-02-2010, 06:16 PM
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Mark glad you've heard some differences.
I had the pleasure of comparing a Dolby analog track 35mm side by side with BD DD in the same screening room. In one scene a door closed off screen stage left. Analog/film gave you a solid left slam with nothing coming from any other speaker. It was intense and no mistake it came from left stage. The BD blended that same scene across the other speakers. Yes the left speaker was louder but you still heard it from center as well. Not sure why they do that.
You will be disappointed once you hear the difference.
We are stuck with an inferior audio mix as we are also limited to 8bit video.
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post #9 of 13 Old 05-13-2010, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Not sure why they do that.

Alan,

Been thinking about that and the only thing I could come up w/ is that a lot of the time the masses don't/can't have their systems set up properly as a commercial theater so their speaker placement is off. Thus, is you were to spread the sound of the door closing over multiple speakers, you could still somewhat give the directors intent of hearing the general direction of where the sound is coming from. Otherwise it could be way off.

Anyone else got any ideas?
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post #10 of 13 Old 05-13-2010, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

Anyone else got any ideas?

I'll go out on a limb and say that perhaps the HAAS effect changes our perception more on environment than the other.

Alan is right though with what he said because any soundtrack mixed for playback on a SDDS 8CH system will have sound effects panned to another channel for 5.1 playback, and not always just the centre speaker.

Take a close listen to a part of MEN IN BLACK when Will Smith's character fires his gun to bust the locked door during the run and down chase sequence and note where the sound effect comes from. It should be LC (SDDS has 5 screen channels) yet I don't think it is a simple phantom between L and C in the 5.1 mix.

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post #11 of 13 Old 05-14-2010, 07:36 AM
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Actually what I have heard compared side by side in the same room has been films analog track which is basically stereo pro logic. The steering is far superior to anything including blue ray audio Ive heard. Very impressive. Bill might be on to something as to the reason for this different mix after all a small cinema screen might start at 30 to 40 feet wide, our home cinema screens are postage size in comparison. This difference in ambiance is quite large making sense a different audio mix requirement for both would make sense.
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post #12 of 13 Old 05-14-2010, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Actually what I have heard compared side by side in the same room has been films analog track which is basically stereo pro logic. The steering is far superior to anything including blue ray audio Ive heard. Very impressive. Bill might be on to something as to the reason for this different mix after all a small cinema screen might start at 30 to 40 feet wide, our home cinema screens are postage size in comparison. This difference in ambiance is quite large making sense a different audio mix requirement for both would make sense.

Alan,
What you are hearing is a Dolby SR encoded Lt/Rt. The steering
is not superior to the Blu Ray. You have it backwards.
The Optical SR is limited. Most Blu Ray Lt/Rt tracks are not limited to
the same specs at the Film tracks. You are probably hearing steering
issues which it bleeds into the surrounds or other speakers.
I know this as I am a Re-Recording Mixer for Films.
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post #13 of 13 Old 05-15-2010, 06:45 AM
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dr.sound always nice to hear from someone in the industry.
No disputing your comment stereo analog matrix not being superior to multi channel digital.
Im thinking the additional digital channels allows for a busier mix.
It really stands out when listening to the analog track on film the hard lefts and rights, it hits you in the face. Something I do not hear on BD as if it is intentionally blended across other channels. It is quit common to hear people in the room comment saying "did you hear that" when playing a film. Could it be the limitation when listening to film and its analog stereo track that results in a dryer mix hence what I perceive as superior separation across the front.
Thanks for your comments.
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