Barco's 4K DLP Cinema® projector takes on 15/70mm film at Digital Cinema Symposium - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 13 Old 03-03-2011, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
Lee Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 19,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Barco's 4K DLP Cinema® projector takes on 15/70mm film at Digital Cinema Symposium

Quote:


A symposium showcasing the latest in large-format digital cinema technology for museums and major attractions featured an exclusive demonstration in which Barco's DP4K-32B was matched against a conventional 15/70mm film projector, representing a shoot-out between tradition and innovation with surprising results.

http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=2199
Lee Stewart is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 13 Old 03-04-2011, 07:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coolscan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Great find, great article.

There was also a report from the event here by Cineramax in January; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1310227
coolscan is offline  
post #3 of 13 Old 03-04-2011, 10:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
donaldk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Well, it reads like a cut and past job from a Barco commissioned copywritten release;-).
donaldk is offline  
post #4 of 13 Old 03-04-2011, 11:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
R Johnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 1,676
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 16
And this is the Barco press release: http://www.barco.com/en/pressrelease/2692/
R Johnson is offline  
post #5 of 13 Old 03-04-2011, 01:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
W.Mayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,785
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 12
the problem of this was they use scanned film material

how this can be better?

they should use material the new red epic shot and compare this side by
side with 70 mm film that was record at the same time.

than the 4k dlps will show (with the red epic material) how much better it
was compare to a 70mm print even if it was a good one.
W.Mayer is offline  
post #6 of 13 Old 03-04-2011, 01:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
donaldk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Depends if scanned from (camera) negative...
donaldk is offline  
post #7 of 13 Old 03-04-2011, 01:47 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: From Coconut Grove FL to the rest of the globe with TLC.
Posts: 12,683
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked: 69
I was there, stop talking crap about any advantages 15/70 is a POS.

The RED 4k(or 3k) content was incredibly detailed, crispy, and colorful and with insane MTF. The upconverted 3-D was phenomenal.

I have seen Barco 4k on three ocassions (showeast/sympossium/RED), in this one the 4k was twice as good, there is a reason for that... ... you will have to figure it out...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CINERAMAX is offline  
post #8 of 13 Old 03-21-2011, 05:32 PM
Senior Member
 
BigScreen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Posts: 236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I'm having trouble figuring out the steps taken to create the film source material in this shootout.

From the press release:
Quote:


The format of the shootout entailed simultaneous projection of both film and digital formats on a split-screen to enable experts to compare and contrast the two technologies. For the digital version, 70mm film was scanned at 11K resolution and converted to a 4K DCP.

The absence of any information about how the film material was processed initially led me to believe that it was the original film source that was projected.

Was this the case?


The reason I ask is that I found this report from Howard Hall after attending the event:

Quote:


The first 70mm clip from Pulse was printed in the traditional way via negative, interpositive, and duplicate negative. The second 70mm clip (from Wild Ocean) was made in the more modern way via 11K scan from negative, then a 4K down-conversion, then film-out to 70mm. The digital projections were made via 11K scan and then 4K down-conversion. The 4K file of Wild Ocean was the file used for the film-out.

I get from this that while the source for "Pulse" was the original film negative, the source for Wild Ocean's 70mm film clip was the 4K down-conversion that was also used for the digital clip.

Wouldn't it make sense that a 70mm clip using a 4K source would like pretty much the same as the 4K digital clip using the same 4K source material?

I'm not trying to discount the performance of the 4K digital projection system, but rather I'm trying to determine how the source material was created in order to have a basis for interpreting the results.

Scott
Publisher -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons, the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas. - Henry Thomas Buckle - historian and author
BigScreen is offline  
post #9 of 13 Old 03-22-2011, 09:39 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: From Coconut Grove FL to the rest of the globe with TLC.
Posts: 12,683
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked: 69
The problems plaguing the 70/15 format in that and most presentations are of mechanical nature and not resolution related.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CINERAMAX is offline  
post #10 of 13 Old 03-23-2011, 10:35 AM
Senior Member
 
GI Joe Sixpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigScreen View Post

The reason I ask is that I found this report from Howard Hall after attending the event:

I get from this that while the source for "Pulse" was the original film negative, the source for Wild Ocean's 70mm film clip was the 4K down-conversion that was also used for the digital clip.

Wouldn't it make sense that a 70mm clip using a 4K source would like pretty much the same as the 4K digital clip using the same 4K source material?

I would _not_ expect this. Resolution is degraded by the printing process, as well as by movement of the film in the gate during projection (although this effect is much smaller for 70mm than 35mm and smallest of all for 15-perf 70mm IMAX.)

The most interesting part of Howard Hall's report for me was that the 4K projector looked to him more or less equivalent to the 15/70mm "Pulse" print, which Howard notes was judged by Andrew Orin from FotoKem to be between 5.5 and 6K resolution. Although it is anecdotal, it is one more data point countering the (usually uninformed) opinions of film diehards who say that 4K is needed just to equal 35mm resolution.

Also interesting was Howard's comment about the disparity between the aspect ratio of the IMAX screen (1.36:1 if the stated dimensions are correct) and the 4K projected image. I'm not sure of the accuracy of Howard's claim that the 4K projector was projecting 16:9 (1.78:1) images, since its native aspect ratio is 1.90:1, as are all digital cinema projectors. But perhaps the 4K files were mastered at 16:9. In any event, this disparity can potentially be cured using an anamorphic lens of around 1.3x to 1.4x turned on its side.
GI Joe Sixpack is offline  
post #11 of 13 Old 03-23-2011, 02:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
donaldk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 16
And yet another 3D Cinema event for Peter to attend next week, to meet the people of his new favorite 3D glasses;-).

Volfoni presents the next generation of active 3D glasses, EDGE 1.2, at CinemaCon in Las Vegas March 28th - 31st


PARIS, March 23, 2011 - French 3D glasses designer Volfoni® will be at the CinemaCon conference taking place March 28th - 31st at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas. CinemaCon brings together members of the National Association of Theatre Owners, as well as others in the cinematic industry. During the show, Volfoni® will present their next generation of 3D glasses, designed with the movie theater in mind: EDGE 1.2

EDGE 1.2 3D glasses, customized for theater owners
Volfoni is an innovative company, in both technology and product design, as well as a provider of superior customer service. “We guarantee theater owners top-quality service and a staff dedicated to their every need. Today, we are proud to launch a new model that is completely devoted to the theater owner,” says Thierry Henkinet, CEO of Volfoni.

EDGE 1.2 3D glasses are equipped with RF technology that works as an anti-theft system. Thanks to this innovation, theater owners are guaranteed the utmost security for their 3D glasses. EDGE 1.2 glasses do not require anti-theft security gates at the exits of screening rooms, allowing a significant reduction in set-up costs. Added features include a new surface coating for the glasses, as well as adaptable arms to provide a comfortable fit for all head shapes.

Innovation as the driving force of development
Volfoni is a dynamic company with global expertise in the digital cinema market. As the leader in the French market for active 3D glasses, Volfoni has been equipping theaters throughout Europe since 2007. Volfoni began as a service provider, renting active 3D glasses to theaters. Today, the company has evolved into a creative innovator and distributor of the next generation of active 3D glasses. EDGE 3D glasses, available since October 2010, have been adapted to many different markets. Over the past 6 months, the Research and Development team at Volfoni has listened to their client feedback and created an advanced 2nd generation of glasses.

For all markets
Volfoni develops next generation glasses for the cinema and education markets, as well as for the direct-to-consumer market (Activeyes). Volfoni will also present their EDGE DLP® Link line, designed for the education market, at CinemaCon.

You can find Volfoni at CinemaCon from March 28th 31st, at Booth 205A in Augustus Ballroom, Caesar’s Palace.

About Volfoni®
Founded in March 2007, Volfoni® is the leading 3D solutions rental and sales company in France. For more than 3 years, Volfoni® is proud to serve 70% of exhibitors who make the choice to equip their theaters with 3D active glasses. With offices in Paris, Munich, Valencia, Los Angeles and Hong Kong, as well as a network of local representatives in several other countries, Volfoni® has high flexibility in terms of logistics, and provides the best 3D experience available on the market. Volfoni® is currently manufacturing several lines of products, including EDGETM and ActivEyes®.
http://www.volfoni.com/

To schedule a meeting or to find out more about Volfoni's products, contact:
Jérôme Testut, VP Business Development & Communications
jtestut@volfoni.com
Phone: +1 213 304 5054
donaldk is offline  
post #12 of 13 Old 02-05-2012, 04:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coolscan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 102
The link in the first post is dead, so I thought I would post the text here for archival reasons even if it is a year old;

Quote:


The following observations on 2K, 4K, and 3D Large Screen Digital Projection are a DCS member content contribution from Howard Hall, the noted Underwater Filmmaker/Cinematographer/Photographer and Author after attending last month's Galveston Digital Symposium:


On January 24 (2011) I joined 127 other Giant Screen professionals at the Moody Gardens Theater to see the debut of the Barco 4K 3D projector system and to view a split screen 4K projection versus IMAX 70mm projection comparison. The Moody Gardens giant screen is 72 feet by 53 feet.

During the two-day event we saw only digital projections (aside from the 4K versus 70mm shootout). Most of the films were projected in 2K on the Barco 4K capable projectors. The 2K projections were shown via both single and two projector systems demonstrating a variety of glasses including Dolby, active, circular polarized, and linear polarized glasses.

I learned little from the 2K projections other than the differences in glasses technologies. I was very surprised at how effective the Dolby notched filter anaglyph glasses were. These totally occluded the opposite eye allowing no ghosting. This combined with the ability to work with any screen surface made this a compelling choice. Glasses cost about $10. The available Dolby glasses are too small for giant screen viewing however. I am sure there is some color shift present when using the Dolby system, but if so I didn't notice it.

The linear polarized glasses produced the most ghosting which was made more significant when tilting one's head to the side. Circular polarized glasses were better. Both had more ghosting than Dolby. The active shutter glasses may have produced the best image, but were darker than the others. Active glasses have other well-known maintenance disadvantages when used in commercial venues. Both Dolby and circular polarized systems can be used on single projector system via a spinning filter wheel. They can be used on duel projector systems via discrete filters.

The 2K projections produced a significantly degraded giant screen experience. Although there was no direct comparison with 70mm, the difference was obvious and visceral.

The 4K projections were another story. We saw a RED Cinema demo reel that was stunning. My impression was that it looked as sharp as any 70mm projection. The image seemed to fill the giant screen and had excellent contrast, resolution, and saturation. It wasn't until the lights came back up that I noticed that the top of the screen had not been used.

The shootout between 70mm and 4K was most interesting. We saw two clips projected via split screen then we saw the clips projected alternately. The first 70mm clip from Pulse was printed in the traditional way via negative, interpositive, and duplicate negative. The second 70mm clip (from Wild Ocean) was made in the more modern way via 11K scan from negative, then a 4K down-conversion, then film-out to 70mm. The digital projections were made via 11K scan and then 4K down-conversion. The 4K file of Wild Ocean was the file used for the film-out.

Just comparing the two 70mm clips was enlightening. The Pulse clip was significantly better than the film-out version of Wild Ocean. Scanning and film-out of Wild Ocean had been necessary because so many different formats in addition to 70mm were used in original image capture (we saw only 70mm original capture examples). Andrew Orin from FotoKem who made the film prints, estimated that even the Pulse clip had degraded to between 5.5 and 6K via the printing process (assuming original camera negative is about 11K).

In my opinion the split screen comparison showed that 4K projection is equal to or better than 70mm projection in all respects save one. The digital images appeared as sharp or sharper, they appeared to have more contrast in addition to equal or better resolution, and the color saturation and fidelity was equal or better. These differences were minor and debatable when the two Pulse clips were compared. The differences were dramatic when Wild Ocean was up.

The only remaining advantage to the 70mm projection was that the 4K projection was 16x9 and did not fill the vertical axis of the screen. That the bottom of the 4K screen image was missing was of no consequence to me since audience heads occlude the 70mm image at the bottom and to me this may be viewed as a distraction. The top of the screen is another story however. Some of the experiential effect is lost with the 4K projection though I confess I did not miss it much. This was the only disadvantage to 4K digital capture and projection that I could see and was but one point when scored against the myriad disadvantages, both financial and logistical, of shooting and projection in 70mm.

When the audience was asked which image they liked best, the overwhelming response was that they preferred the digital projection. As an IMAX 70mm veteran, I found that quite astounding.

I recognize that the 16x9 aspect ratio will be much more problematic for giant screen dome theaters. Also Moody Gardens has a modestly sized IMAX screen. Digital light levels may be problematic on the very largest IMAX giant screens some of which are up to 100 feet wide.

Source; http://www.digitalcinemasociety.org/...Newsletter.php

coolscan is offline  
post #13 of 13 Old 02-08-2012, 01:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reddig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Hays, KS
Posts: 1,637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 164
Thank you for doing that coolscan.

JBL Pro Cinema
Reddig is online now  
Reply D-cinema Equipment and Theaters

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off