"World Premiere 4K 3D DLP passive Stack" - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 229 Old 07-14-2011, 10:56 AM
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I think I would soon forget about the noise sitting next to these projectors the 4k image would take over all my senses

I love that PC scaling to 4k. Someday when 4k becomes mainstream Mayer will be remembed as a pioneer helping to bring the platform to maturity!!
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post #32 of 229 Old 07-15-2011, 02:09 AM - Thread Starter
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thank you alan for your nice words but i have to correct you.

the 4k computer i have are not scale up 2k to 4k it feed 2x 4096x2160
NATIVE to both pr.

the pr. itself can scale up 2k to 4k and it makes this perfect.

also if you order this not so cheap 4k imb inputboard with the server
this can do the 2k to 4k scaling and much more......
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post #33 of 229 Old 07-15-2011, 09:42 AM
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Wolfgang:

What is the IMB Board?
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post #34 of 229 Old 07-15-2011, 10:14 AM
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Thanks Norm
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post #35 of 229 Old 07-15-2011, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Wolfgang:

What is the IMB Board?

It's the magic 4k-3d-hdmi 1.4 input board, that in order to work needs a Vault Server attached to it. The one with the pcie green connector. Maximum distance from server to imb is 4 meters.

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post #36 of 229 Old 07-15-2011, 11:27 AM
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Wolfgang your project is saving me thousands in R&D. Many Thanks!

Excuse if I repeat question but this is crucial to know.

If I understand correctly then it is no problem with dual projectors to have perfect lens memory in scope and flat.

I can have both projectors save the lens memory precisely at both ends of the zoom Range.

I ask because here:



I will have system alignment every 60 to 90 days. You say lens memory is that good on the Barco 4K that it will not drift that much?

I see you have presets for both scope and flat, when you watch cinemascope you are still using the 2 projectors (stacked)?
LL
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post #37 of 229 Old 07-15-2011, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

peter

c. today its not color correct. a big advantage from this new filter is that you not "have" to do it.
it will looks better with the correction no question but i am not sure i will do it as i like how biright the picture looks now and with the correction i will loose some may 15 % or even more.

That is EXCELLENT news, especially for the DIY crowd. Hopefully we'll be able to buy these new filters like you could with the old ones. Can you estimate what the brightness reduction is with the new filters as oppose to the older Infitec filters??

I was drooling reading this thread. The only I can add is to make sure the acoustical foam you're using in your projection booth is Class A (i.e. fire retardant). The last thing you'd want is for them to combust from the heat of those hot projectors.

thanks
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post #38 of 229 Old 07-15-2011, 03:49 PM
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Peter with his 4 kilowatt lamp he had 67fL in scope, so with 6KW there most likely will be no need to use both, unless you mean 3D scope. Lamplife matching could be done by alternating projectors.
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post #39 of 229 Old 07-15-2011, 03:52 PM
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Yes but the system above will have no 2d button on the remote, so alignment in both aspect ratios is crucial, I need to know if it is practical by Tuesday Night otherwise audio will suffer some.
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post #40 of 229 Old 07-16-2011, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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peter i still dont know 100% what you want to do with 2 pr.?
side by side setup?
both pr. at one picture?
2D 3D ?.......

so please describe it to me that i understand it 100% right.
otherwise i cant get you the right answer.
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post #41 of 229 Old 07-16-2011, 08:32 AM
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Both pr one pic for 2d and 3d. With dual aspect ratio. worried about alignment over repeated lens zoom changes.
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post #42 of 229 Old 07-16-2011, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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ok understand now.

that will not works as both optics are different and than
you have to put both pr. side by side or up down and shift the picture and
the accuracy both pr. have in ILS system is not good to do such things.

so its the ils "AND" on top the differnet optics that makes it impossible.

no way you can do it for 2d!

in 3d that is possible as there a small tolerance from 1 to 3 cm at some area is not that big problem if you have a lets say 5 meter wide picture but not possible in 2d as there it have to be almost pixel perfect.

i cant match my 2 pr. as well for 3d passive perfect.

the best i can do with my set up is almost perfect over the whole screen but
at the left down corner i have some areas that are 3 cm out.

may it will help to movie both pr. more close together but than it will be
difficult to change the lamp or do other service.

also helpfull to make it better but thats for me not possible in my setup is to
use more long throw lenses.

but again even with very long thow lenses both pr. without any space
for 2d you should forgth it.

i will go down after some days not work with the setup and take a look about
the 3d that looks a bit strange.
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post #43 of 229 Old 07-17-2011, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

...-see both pictures at the same time (for blue ray in 3d its very important as 3D motion looks far better)

...here is only one problem as pr.1 have the imb inside and pr. 2 have a other inputboard inside that both pr. have a timing problem.

...There was some issue as it seems that both pictures (left and right from 3d bd) are not 100% on sync but I have to look into it tomorrow as there was some adjustments possible but today it gets to late.

...i will go down after some days not work with the setup and take a look about
the 3d that looks a bit strange.

If you are refering to artefacts in rapid motion, that may not be due to out of sync images.

Check it with frame interpolation disabled if you use any. I am not talking about FI artefacts you get when watching 2D. I hope you hi-grade system wont have any . But in 3D, FI do not interpolate exactly the same way for left and right views as the FI processor processes each image separately. Here comes the "underwater effect".

I have the same issue and I have to chose from either FI and fast motion artefacts OR no FI and perfect sync.

Jack
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post #44 of 229 Old 07-17-2011, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

uwe drives 16 hours in one day 1200km to see this set up......
you can "almost" take a walk.

Thanks for your invitation Wolfgang! Nothing can stop me now, although we have massive rainshowers and thunderstorms outside! I equipped myself with heavy duty outdoor clothing, a tent, a nurse and extreme dark sunglasses. I plan to start my walk to planet 3D within the next 60 minutes, no map needed, we only follow the bright light. Estimated arrival Wednesday evening

Wolfgang, will we also see 2K content on the projectors and do we need suncream?
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post #45 of 229 Old 07-17-2011, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicksbass View Post

Thanks for your invitation Wolfgang! Nothing can stop me now, although we have massive rainshowers and thunderstorms outside! I equipped myself with heavy duty outdoor clothing, a tent, a nurse and extreme dark sunglasses. I plan to start my walk to planet 3D within the next 60 minutes, no map needed, we only follow the bright light. Estimated arrival Wednesday evening

Wolfgang, will we also see 2K content on the projectors and do we need suncream?

lol

Dont forget your i-pod movie collection!!
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post #46 of 229 Old 07-17-2011, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

lol

Dont forget your i-pod movie collection!!

OK. Thrown back to start. And loosing the nurse.
Or moving on. Question of the day: i-pod or nurse?

Wolfgang: Do you use the IMB scaler or do you use pixel repetition for 2K "upsacle"?
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post #47 of 229 Old 07-17-2011, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicksbass View Post

Thanks for your invitation Wolfgang! Nothing can stop me now, although we have massive rainshowers and thunderstorms outside! I equipped myself with heavy duty outdoor clothing, a tent, a nurse and extreme dark sunglasses. I plan to start my walk to planet 3D within the next 60 minutes, no map needed, we only follow the bright light. Estimated arrival Wednesday evening

Wolfgang, will we also see 2K content on the projectors and do we need suncream?

better use sunglasses than have to use a night-vision equipment
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post #48 of 229 Old 07-17-2011, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post

If you are refering to artefacts in rapid motion, that may not be due to out of sync images.

Check it with frame interpolation disabled if you use any. I am not talking about FI artefacts you get when watching 2D. I hope you hi-grade system wont have any . But in 3D, FI do not interpolate exactly the same way for left and right views as the FI processor processes each image separately. Here comes the "underwater effect".

I have the same issue and I have to chose from either FI and fast motion artefacts OR no FI and perfect sync.

Jack

thats complex to anser it short here as there are so many things invole
like how we human can see how our brain works for seeing and
many other things.......

i will try to keep it short but i will not go inside in more details as i cant
shrink scientific books to some letters and i not have the time to
write this books again her.

beside the sony 4k pr. that act like a double pr. set up all
lets say 95% or more cinemas that show 3d with one dlp have some
motion bugs visible that a passive stack not have as only they can display
both (left and right picture) at the same time at the screen.

all other systems in 3d that show left righ alternate will produce some kind of
motion bug as the shutter cant show both left and right at the same time
and therefore when frame 1 was gone and frame 2 was displayed our human
eye see even if the picture was black for some milliseconds a picture.

its like in the old home cinema days the delay time from the crt pr. tubes.

as than the frame 1 ends with left and the new frame 2 starts with right
you can see for a short period of time a mix between frame 1 and 2 and
this is the motion bug in 3d 95% from all cinema and home cinema pr. and
tv have.

i hope this is understandable.

i dont know what you means by FI?
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post #49 of 229 Old 07-17-2011, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicksbass View Post

OK. Thrown back to start. And loosing the nurse.
Or moving on. Question of the day: i-pod or nurse?

Wolfgang: Do you use the IMB scaler or do you use pixel repetition for 2K "upsacle"?

so far i saw all 2d blue ray material with the barco dvi inputs so the barco upscale it from 1920x1080 to 3840x2160.
no bugs at all visible and a perfect picture ..you will see soon.

3d blue ray i need the doremi imb in a single stack 4k pr.configuration with shutter.

it will be interesting to test some day if there is a difference between the
2k to 4k scalling the barco did and the doremi imb
but i doubt there will be a difference.

by the way if you cant see the bright light may my wife try to cook but found out that we lost power.

i told her to not cook when i use both pr. at each full lamp power
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post #50 of 229 Old 07-17-2011, 05:23 PM
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Get her a gascooker, induction just draws too much power. On the other hand it doesn't heat up your kitchen either, so the airco won't kick in;-).
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post #51 of 229 Old 07-18-2011, 03:46 AM - Thread Starter
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here a picture that explanins what i write about the motion bug
every single 3d dlp pr. solution have (beside the sony 4k) in post number 48.

thanks Mr. Peschke for let me post it.



when frame 1 was gone and frame 2 was displayed our human "brain"
eye see for some milliseconds both pictures left from frame 1 and right from
frame 2 (or opposite) as our eye/brain have a small delay.

thats why most people prefer a passive 3d solution.

i saw the sony 4k pr. that act like a double stack as it have both left right
at the same time on the screen and it looks very good.
the best avatar in a cinema and on pair with a double stack
dlp system that also looks very nice and bright.
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post #52 of 229 Old 07-18-2011, 03:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Get her a gascooker, induction just draws too much power. On the other hand it doesn't heat up your kitchen either, so the airco won't kick in;-).

ok i will tell her your proposal but i cant guarantees you anything
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post #53 of 229 Old 07-18-2011, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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today new much stronger exhaust fan
are installed and also a new air in system that feed the new pr.room
with till to 3000 cubic metre per hour very fine filtered air.




also the new air tubes are installed.

it takes all together almost 10 hours as we have to drill new holes
into the very strong concrete that my basement have.

later the electric installation will be change as i wish when i start one or twos pr.that the air system will start as well and even runs min. 20 min. longer when i switch the pr. or the lamp of.
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post #54 of 229 Old 07-19-2011, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

(...) it will be interesting to test some day if there is a difference between the 2k to 4k scalling the barco did and the doremi imb (...)

I've tried outputting native 2K or 1080p from my Doremi IMB to a NEC 3240S 4K, but all material, both DCI via the internal path and Blu-Ray or PC via HDMI, is automatically upscaled to 4K by the IMB. Is there a way to bypass this, and try TI's scaling? I bought the very first 4K DLP in Italy in April, and unfortunately Doremi aren't being very helpful. Thanks, and congratulations on your setup, as a theatre owner I'm definitely jealous!
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post #55 of 229 Old 07-19-2011, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidoru View Post
I've tried outputting native 2K or 1080p from my Doremi IMB to a NEC 3240S 4K, but all material, both DCI via the internal path and Blu-Ray or PC via HDMI, is automatically upscaled to 4K by the IMB. Is there a way to bypass this, and try TI's scaling? I bought the very first 4K DLP in Italy in April, and unfortunately Doremi aren't being very helpful. Thanks, and congratulations on your setup, as a theatre owner I'm definitely jealous!
Nice to hear this from a cinema owner thank you.

But I can say that I am also jealous as I not have access to DCI Content on a regular base .

Knowing how big the difference is between a good bd and good DCI content can be very
frustrating for me when I did a A to B comparison

About your question.
Yes it should be possible.
One 4k pr. I have have just the input board with 2 dual link dvi input the other one have the doremi 4k imb inside
plus this dvi inputboard.

When I feed a 2d blue ray at 1920x1080 at 24p to the 4k that have just the 2 dvi inputs (with this new software
I have) it scale up it to 3840x2160 so this must be the TI scaling as there is not any doremi inside.
I don't know if this is TI scaling or Barco.

The other 4k that have the 4k imb on act similar so I thing just by using the dvi inputs you are safe that the TI/Barco scaling was used.

I think a NEC 4K act similar.

The problem I have is that I cant use the hd dsi inputs the doremi 4k imb have but I think that problem doremi will solve soon.
I think its just a new macro that is need.
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post #56 of 229 Old 07-20-2011, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

(...) just by using the dvi inputs you are safe that the TI/Barco scaling was used.

I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that my projector didn't come with the DVI and HD-SDI input board, NEC said it is now an option, and by default they don't include it because most customers run external sources through HDMI inputs on IMBs, as I do with the Doremi.

I'm thinking that a macro command could turn the scaler off, just like it can switch from HDMI to Internal, but no one seems to know. I'll probably wait for the next software version, hopefully it comes with better documentation too.

As for DCI content... at least here in Italy, 4K movies are almost non-existent. Since April, we've managed to show only "Battle Los Angeles" from Sony, everything else after that has only been 2K. Ok, at this point there are only 11 4K projectors on our country (9 SXRDs, 2 DLPs) out of 800+ DCI screens, but it's still disappointing, considering that every one of them could play 4K DCPs anyway...
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post #57 of 229 Old 07-20-2011, 08:36 AM
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Sorry for jumping in...
Wolfgang, that´s an absolutly breathtaking installation or should i say "Der pure Wahnsinn"

You can and will beat out every commercial Cinema by far!

What i´m curious about is, how does the IMB deal with sources other than 24p
( i.e 50/60i Hz and higher)?
I can´t find any information about this at Barco´s website or spec-sheets. Maybe there is something in the manual.

Thank you and have fun with your "Supernovae"...
( Was sagt eigentlich der Strahlenschutz dazu? )
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post #58 of 229 Old 07-20-2011, 04:07 PM
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I watch 4K at my local theater, along with its higher color depth it sure looks better than my HDTV. Until this tech comes way down in price I'll go to the movies instead. I'm not holding my breath.
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post #59 of 229 Old 07-20-2011, 10:27 PM
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Absolutely stunning! I would die to see this in person!!!

But for now, as the Maldives are in top of my list of places to travel, I'd love it William if you'd post some of your Maldives 2D pics...this way when I go to sleep tonight, my dreams can be in 4k too.

-> No longer looking for Hi-Vision LDs <-

(I buried that format finally)

www.16cylinder.com
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post #60 of 229 Old 07-21-2011, 09:43 AM
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We followed the bright lights and finished our three day walk. Picked up a college and entered the house. Followed this huge shhhhhhh sound and found the theater. And then we saw the pioneer himself - Lord Mayer in front of the strangest 4K appearance on the globe


What happens down there in the basement surrounded by fan noise, masses of equipment and the opposite of what we call wireless is simply incredible.
We watched 2K material, upscaled by the IMB and it looked absolutely great.
The next step was named Avatar and it turned out to be u n b e l I e v a b l e.
What a huge impression! It is the first time that 3D caught me that much.
I thought by myself in 5-10 years all movies will be done in that way. Fantastic, especially the DCI version.
Most impressive: Viewing Wolfgang's 4K pictures from a 0,8 screen width distance. People and nature, everything looks soooo realistic - lifelike. It's a shock and beyond imagination.

Thanks WM for sharing this great adventure, your precious time and and your splendid lessons!
We will never forget what we saw!
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