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post #1 of 229 Old 07-07-2011, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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After years of waiting a dream becomes true.

One Barco 4K Cinema DLP the DP4K-B32 was install on 3th june 2011 at my home cinema.

With this 4K I did a lot of tests also one with a new Infitec System calls
3D of excellence
and as it went very well I order a second Barco DP4K-B32.

The old pr. room that have the Barco DP 2000 inside was removed


the old pr. room was gone....



This second was installed last Friday the 1th july 2011.

After this install i put the new Infitec System on(temporarily at the lens) set up a computer that
feed via 4 display ports the two 4K DLPs each with a 4096x2160 image.

the 4K 3D computer with 4 displayports to feed both 4K Barco



4K Pr. number one is down at the cinema and got the install


a fist light with a true 4K test pattern


I hear from Barco Infitic and other company's that must be the first 3D 4K passive set up in the world
with a 4K DLP system.

There are less than 20 installations worldwide at this moment running a DLP 4K Stack but not one of them show native 4K 3D content.
So the 1.July 2011 was a World Premiere


4K Pr. number 2 arrives the cinema


As 4K3D native with one 4K DLP is may a good year away and shutter have also some weak parts I decided
to go with this passive 4K 3D set up as it have a lot of advantages like:

-having 4K 3D TODAY and no need to wait for next year new input boards that makes native 4K 3D possible with only one 4K DLP
-double the brightness compare to a active 3D single pr. set up
-see both pictures at the same time (for blue ray in 3d its very important as 3D motion looks far better)
-no need active shutter that have Front Wave Distortion Bug and other picture quality decreased issues.

AND thanks to the new 3D of excellence Infitec System
-no ghosting AT ALL even at this high FTL numbers!
-no speckling from silver screen
-no hot spot from silver screen
-no emitter problems in some far away areas
-more brightness


a very rare picture my Barco DP 2000 with two new 4K Barco


As I report since long time ago at AVS with a 4K DLP the source will becomes very important as this is in 99% the bottleneck and will limit the
possible quality.
If you scan even a good 35mm print most of the time you will find not more than hd resolution as the 400 or 800 asa films not contain
much more than this.

That's why I spend since many years much time money and action to record my 3D Stills with the best possible digital cameras that are
buy-able and possible to make a mirror rick in 3d.

Now for the first time I know why I did that as the bottleneck is not anymore the display system!


Its hard to describe how good this pictures looks.
One very big advantages from using 4K DLPs are that you can go very very close to the screen without any visible pixels and decrease
of details.

That's why I create a new first row that have in flat format (1,89:1 = 4096x2160 that I most use to display my 3D stills)
0,8 times the distance from the screen wide.
The displayed image is there 5.4meter wide 2.86meter high and I sit there in only 4.4meter distance.

At this distance the picture is still very sharp no way you can do it with only 2k resolution as there the picture suffers form the
4 times less resolution.

The 3d picture is very bright thanks to the Barco DP4K-B32
http://www.barco.com/en/digitalcinem...uct/2310/specs
with a 6000 w. xenon lamp that have around 32.000 lumen and
the new Infitec system that have set a world record light out.
This system is even brighter than Dolby 3D System and allows me depends on what size I use in
flat 5.4 m wide or scope almost 7m wide till over 40 FTL in 4K 3D measured after the glasses what you eye see!
In cinemas you must be lucky to see more than 4 ftl in 3D and new tricks not solve this issue.
Some will say to bright but some early visitors may think first the same but after they see it they say that is bright very nice
No one say it was to bright.

For all that have no access to high quality 4K 2D or 3D material a 4K pr. make not a big sense beside you are future proof.
A good BD in 2D looks upscale to 4K not far better.
You can only see a small improvement in picture quality it looks a bit more naturally that's all.
But if you sit close to the Blue Ray picture in about 1.0 times the screen wide in distance it makes sense as you than with a 4K DLP can not see any pixels.

It will be still a long way and will take much action to rebuild the cinema that it will be look again nice and with all the new much stronger exhaust air system new sound proof projector room, new system to not need any porthole glass but it will be make fun to plan and build it.

the Barco DP 2000 was gone the 2 new Barco 4K with the
temporary Infitec set-up




I have to say thank you Barco (Ignance, Dirk and Philippe) to help me a to create this setup as for sample I can use
new software to feed my 4K 3D Images that will be soon(in some weeks) released to the public and much more.

Also Infitec that give me the new 3D of excellence filters to test it and the offer to equip both Barco DP4K-B32 with this new filter that I can
move in and out to have the flexibility to watch 2D and use at the same time 3D.
This new filters and glasses will become available till end of this year.

Also Mr. Trautner from Austria that build first time this kind of computer i have to say thank you for your support and the time you
spend with me for this project.

FTT in Germany did also a good job to install and adjust both pr.

Mr. Peschke (the In Camera Magazin called him the 3D brain from Germany) I have to say thank you as well as
he creates with me this insane Leica M9 3D 3D Rick that can do 3D pictures that have a quality that I never saw before.

All this was not possible without the 3D processing program Cosima from Mr. Herbig Germany.
This program allows to do anything you like for 3D pictures and 3D video and as he update his program all the time.
It's a perfect tool and a good workflow for me in 3D.

Last I must say I was very surprised with all what can go wrong in this huge project that not anything major
went wrong and all is ok from the beginning on.
That's a big surprise for me.


new first row at 0,8 times the screen wide in distance


But the biggest surprise for me was how good this 4K 3D pictures look.
I expect that they should be good but I never believe that the distance to my old setup (single Barco DP 2000 Cinema DLP) that
was already very good was so great.

4K with the right display the right source puts you into a new world if you sit close enough.
Its like you looking outside a window and you are there inside the picture.

Next big improvement will be a holodeck
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post #2 of 229 Old 07-07-2011, 10:39 AM
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Very nice W.Mayer. I think you are one of the first. Congrats!
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post #3 of 229 Old 07-07-2011, 12:40 PM
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Wow Wolfgang, so you actually went ahead and did it. No decay issue with the new silver screen? You mentioned passive is not ideal, not faster than active, unlike the hitachi claim, I posted a few months ago, as silver screens have an extinction time of 150 ms, you said.
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post #4 of 229 Old 07-07-2011, 12:42 PM
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Wow, that sounds absolutely amazing. I'm truly jealous - nice setup!!

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #5 of 229 Old 07-07-2011, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

After years of waiting a dream becomes true.

Wolfgang, this is nothing else than a sensation! Spectacular
You did it again, congratulations!

Funny to see this huge 2K projector in comparison to those new big 4K animals!
Your screenshots look very promising
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post #6 of 229 Old 07-07-2011, 01:46 PM
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Ingenious Wolfgang!!!!!!!! You have stretched the envelope further than any Video guru on this earth. Enjoy
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post #7 of 229 Old 07-07-2011, 03:01 PM
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today i drove 1200 km (750 miles) to see wolfgang´s setup..
we don´t have many speed limits here in germany but it took almost 16 hours to get there due to bad weather even with 525 hp and max speed 200 miles per hour ;-)..

but : it was absolutely worth it.

casino royal was the first bluray : never seen better before!

later wolfgang showed us 3d pictures from dubai and the maledives : the only chance to stand the 12000 watt of light : suncream and sunglasses :-) we felt to be there!!!

thanks wolfgang!

uwe

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life down here!
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post #8 of 229 Old 07-07-2011, 08:03 PM
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Didn't they show at least one passive demo on that Barco stack at that 3D gathering Peter attended, RealD, from what I remember from the reports here?

Of course that was not a permanent installation, but a brief semi-public demo. So you still have the first permanently installed 4K DLP 3D set-up in the world, wow.

And considerably bigger and brighter than that (small, ahum) 152.5" (386.2 centimeter diagonal) plasma. I came across that picture Lang AG emailed me with me in front of the Lang owned unit, clearing some old email the other night. No I didn't get it in the one week free 'rental' prizedraw at ISE;-(.
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post #9 of 229 Old 07-08-2011, 12:49 AM
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OMG! you are one lucky dog. congratulation man. Can you please tell us how much you pay for each one of the 4k projector and what lense are you using. thanks
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post #10 of 229 Old 07-08-2011, 01:29 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for all the nice words!

as i have post a handfull 4k stacks working worldwide right now but they either display 4k in 2d at 24p or 3d2k upscalle to 4k3d and not "native" 4k in 3d.

the event you mentioned they show there 4k in "2d" with 24p and 3d from 2k source material upscale to 4k so not native 4k 3d.

silver screens not have any "extinction *time* of 150 ms" i say that silver screens have
extinction *ratio* in the best case at 150:1 that means the ghosting is bad.
as it was not that good thats the reason why the ghostbuffer the source material
for almost every 3d movie.

the lens is the 1,27-1,86
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post #11 of 229 Old 07-08-2011, 04:34 AM
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Truly amazing. The amount of effort required to do something like this is incredible.
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post #12 of 229 Old 07-08-2011, 06:15 AM
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I have 2 setups like these going in next year.

I was surprised by your quick anlaghen.

When it comes to 3D the more you know, the more you realize what you do not know...

I have been prepared to go full blown RealD with their large polarizers but I took a class at Infocomm on passive technologies and the developer of DETHq a competing z-screen and pc 3d program admitted that GHOSTBUSTING is always a requirement.

That presents a problem for passive polarized.There are no video processors with ghostbusting.

The Depth Q guy did mention that the Infitec is an asymmetric process where both eyes do not get the same signal (as in Polarized passive), he asserts this can be seen on content and that some people may be sensitive to the inter ocular color differences.

So I left Infocomm a bit confused but like Wolfgang decided to go with two solid passive filters after seeing the excellent demonstration of the new
superbright Infitec filters shown here on 2 10kw christies uhp.






LL
LL
LL
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post #13 of 229 Old 07-08-2011, 06:20 AM
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a) dual aspect ratio. Can you preserve convergence in dual aspect ratio lens memory or just one aspect ratio. What happens to cinemascope.Gut?

b) inter-ocular color differences, any side effects from having different color wavelengths arriving to each eye?

c) Color correction- was anything special done to the barco's in order to color correct? in single projector dolby this is a pending item. Or with two projectors it is very simple basic correction, like Manfred Reich said.

thanks!
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post #14 of 229 Old 07-08-2011, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

thanks for all the nice words!

as i have post a handfull 4k stacks working worldwide right now but they either display 4k in 2d at 24p or 3d2k upscalle to 4k3d and not "native" 4k in 3d.

the event you mentioned they show there 4k in "2d" with 24p and 3d from 2k source material upscale to 4k so not native 4k 3d.

silver screens not have any "extinction *time* of 150 ms" i say that silver screens have
extinction *ratio* in the best case at 150:1 that means the ghosting is bad.
as it was not that good thats the reason why the ghostbuffer the source material
for almost every 3d movie.

the lens is the 1,27-1,86

That's right you mentioned a ratio, not a time, guess that's why I asked for clarification;-). Yeah, now I remember that 3D was upscaled. Anyway an amazing project, Wolfgang, congratulations on your world's first.


BTW, with the Infinitec do you still need to 'ghost bust'?
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post #15 of 229 Old 07-08-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
Wow Wolfgang, so you actually went ahead and did it. No decay issue with the new silver screen?
Just in case it wasn't clear, I'm pretty sure he didn't go with a silver screen (since he went with Infitec instead).

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #16 of 229 Old 07-08-2011, 11:51 AM
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Of course Infinitec is the different colourfrequency passive system. He didn't mention any work on the screen (KinoTon), so I did wonder about that, but I overlooked the workings of the Infinitec system, eventhough I have seen it demoed at ISE. Thanks Darin.
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post #17 of 229 Old 07-09-2011, 08:57 AM
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Wolfgang,
As I've said many times you don't fucck around with things video ! I'm very happy that things worked out so well with such an incredibly complex installation.

Art

My HT


iRule rules my theater
 

"If she's amazing she won't be easy,if she's easy she won't be amazing"

 

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post #18 of 229 Old 07-10-2011, 01:30 AM
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Woftgang,

Are you going to get the Teranex 2D>3D box to go with these monster manchines of yours?
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post #19 of 229 Old 07-10-2011, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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some more infos.

here a picture how the 3d4k picture was created with the COSIMA programm.
a 4096x4320 resolution(2160x2) picture split in up left and down right part from the
3d picture.



thats my old canon 5d mk2 a big good heavy 3d camera that i use
till last year.




here my last 3d camera a hand build leica M9 3d camera.
Mr. Peschke desing the rick
Leica makes the coupling and sync box and the new cover.

Leica have to redesign the top part of this camera because of the original M9 up cover plate have not enough room for the conctor for the sync but a M8 up cover plate have it.

so this two M9 are the only 2 units that Leica build that have a M8 cover plate!

i bring all together and procure a very high end beamsplitter.

that Leica 3d rick is a very very compact full format digital 3d set up and the best i ever had.
some people say its the best full format sensor still picture digital camera in the world and i must say that i saw till today nothing that beats this M9 camera in picture quality.



i build 3 ricks.
one i use the other one is with leica and the 3th
is for someone that is as insane as i am about 3d.

sad that Leica not produce """this""" camera:
please note that this was a fake picture i create!


but if such a high end 3d camera will be ever produced i will be very happy.

this rick i use have one big advantage over a true 3d camera
with a fix optic distance.
you can there adjust the base
between both optics but this beamsplitter cost you around 55-60% light
produce color problems compare to a real 3d camera.

i hear that some companys will have soon a real good 3d still picture camera.
i guess sony and panasonic will be a candidate may canon as well but i doubt
that they will comes with a full format digital 3d that match my quality
ideas.

but the next dream will be to have a true 4k video 3d recording like for sample
a red epic like they use for shooting 3d films at this moment.
sad this rick will be huge and havy but i hear also that some camera manufacturer will have a video 4k function for film very soon.

a problem will be that at this time the 4k dlp can not display 4k native resolution with more than 30 frames.
the new inputboards that can do it in 48p and possible 60p in 4k native
will take some time.
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post #20 of 229 Old 07-11-2011, 12:37 AM
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Hey Wolfgang,

Can you please share some of your 3d shots that you took with you 3d camera? I am sure of of us here would love to see and download some of your best works. also, what are you using your camera for. is it for everyday photos of your family and social life or are you doing some kind of professional photography work with it (like weddings, party, etc. )? thanks.
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post #21 of 229 Old 07-11-2011, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adaseng View Post

Hey Wolfgang,

Can you please share some of your 3d shots that you took with you 3d camera? I am sure of of us here would love to see and download some of your best works. also, what are you using your camera for. is it for everyday photos of your family and social life or are you doing some kind of professional photography work with it (like weddings, party, etc. )? thanks.

i may will consider to share some of the pictures in future.

its my hobby family and more not professional photography but some
very top company that everybody knows use internal my 3d pictures for tests and more.(in full hd as well in 4k)
with some of them i talk about a licence to show some to the public at shows for sample.
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post #22 of 229 Old 07-11-2011, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

a) dual aspect ratio. Can you preserve convergence in dual aspect ratio lens memory or just one aspect ratio. What happens to cinemascope.Gut?

b) inter-ocular color differences, any side effects from having different color wavelengths arriving to each eye?

c) Color correction- was anything special done to the barco's in order to color correct? in single projector dolby this is a pending item. Or with two projectors it is very simple basic correction, like Manfred Reich said.

thanks!

peter

a.cinemascope looks very nice.
you hear from uwew how he like casino rojal and he saw almost everything.
"if i understand you right" this will not works as every lens are a bit different.

b.no

c. today its not color correct. a big advantage from this new filter is that you not "have" to do it.
it will looks better with the correction no question but i am not sure i will do it as i like how biright the picture looks now and with the correction i will loose some may 15 % or even more.
not forgeth my lamp is a 6kw xenon and the lifetime is only 600 hours.
as this kind of lamps drops fast i may need to change it all 300 hours as i not like it dim
as the price for such a lamp is not to bad ist ok as i not use this pr. more than 300 hour a year.

tomorrow is a big day again.
my 4k imb will be put inside one pr.and the other 4k pr. will be equipped with a hd sdi inputboard.

so than it should be possible to watch Avatar Blue Ray in 3d with this passive
stack as i now can use your doremi dimension 3d you send me.
there is only one problem as pr.1 have the imb inside and pr. 2 have a other
inputboard inside that both pr. have a timing problem.
lets see........
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post #23 of 229 Old 07-11-2011, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adaseng View Post

Woftgang,

Are you going to get the Teranex 2D>3D box to go with these monster manchines of yours?

as i have my own 3d cameras NO.

but even if i not have such cameras the answer will be NO as well.....
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post #24 of 229 Old 07-11-2011, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Just in case it wasn't clear, I'm pretty sure he didn't go with a silver screen (since he went with Infitec instead).

--Darin

yes darin using a silver screen and this new infitec system is like you
heat up water and cool it at the same time
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post #25 of 229 Old 07-11-2011, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post



For all that have no access to high quality 4K 2D or 3D material a 4K pr. make not a big sense beside you are future proof.
A good BD in 2D looks upscale to 4K not far better.
You can only see a small improvement in picture quality it looks a bit more naturally that's all.
But if you sit close to the Blue Ray picture in about 1.0 times the screen wide in distance it makes sense as you than with a 4K DLP can not see any pixels.

Wolfgang, can you tell us a bit more about watching 2K material on a 4K unit?
Would you say the picture gets somehow smoother or how would you describe it?

Apart from resolution, what advantages do you see in the new Barco models compared to your 2K model?

Thanks in advance!
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post #26 of 229 Old 07-11-2011, 02:27 PM
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Remember Norman, his 2000 was too dim, even for 2D;-).

Have you seen his new theater, yet?
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post #27 of 229 Old 07-12-2011, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicksbass View Post

Wolfgang, can you tell us a bit more about watching 2K material on a 4K unit?
Would you say the picture gets somehow smoother or how would you describe it?

Apart from resolution, what advantages do you see in the new Barco models compared to your 2K model?

Thanks in advance!

There are a couple of ways of quadrupling the HD signal in Wolfgang's setup, one using the doremi IMB and the other using projector internal scaler. The second one is probably best bet for watching 2d 3d upconverted to 4k. It will look great, not soft like SONY.
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post #28 of 229 Old 07-12-2011, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Remember Norman, his 2000 was too dim, even for 2D;-).

Have you seen his new theater, yet?

Hi Donald!

You hit the nail
Unfortunately I did not have the time to see it yet. But as soon as I get a chance I'll be there
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post #29 of 229 Old 07-12-2011, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicksbass View Post

Hi Donald!

You hit the nail
Unfortunately I did not have the time to see it yet. But as soon as I get a chance I'll be there

i am very busy at the moment.
Infitec was today there to find the right construction for the filters INSIDE the pr.
FTT today try to implement the 4k imb but we are still working on it.

the other pr. will get a normaly HD SDI inputboard but that also
not working at all.

norman
uwe drives 16 hours in one day 1200km to see this set up......
you can "almost" can take a walk.

it will takes min. additional 8 weeks before everything will be nice looking again but bd in 2d and 4K stills in 3d native 4K are running without any sound
now.......
the highlight is anyway 4k in 3d nativ at 0,8times the screen wide and that is
ready if you not complain about noise from the pr.

btw i got used to the lumen in 3d this set up have......and you know what this means
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post #30 of 229 Old 07-12-2011, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Today was a long day…..but lately we had a big success.

After so long without any result finally the 4k imb starts to work
just before we say "we give up". thanks to the pefect
support from doremi.




I try bd in 3d and YES it displays it in 3d.
Just need a 3d bd player and a hdmi cable plug into the hdmi input from the
4k imb a emitter that drive the shutter and a box that generates the sync and you can see 3d bd that looks better than in every cinema.

Also cinema content 2d and 3d playback from the server.

There was some issue as it seems that both pictures (left and right from 3d bd) are not 100% on sync but I have to look into it tomorrow as there was some adjustments possible but today it gets to late.

the other 4k dlp get a normally hd sdi inputboard but for some reason(we thing the encryption on this inputboard was not there)
it make problems and we cant get any picture from this input board at all.

I hope I not have to invest in a second 4k imb as this units are not that cheap as it was a complete cinema dci server with a imb board at the
pr.input side with all it inputs you need.
for sampel it have G3 inputs that are new hd sdi with double the bandwidth hd sdi have and hdmi as well.
also it have more than 3 tb memory......

Infitec did some tests with the 4k to see how much heat this filters inside will get and more.........


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