Red tails in 11.1 Audio - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 73 Old 10-19-2011, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is what we are working on now. Digital Cinema projectors are mature, we are focusing on the "next" thing. We all agree that Audio is the major factor in a film experience. HT owners have known that forever. But commercial theater owners, due to the lack of available content, stuck to 5.1 Now this is about to change. Will it go our way, Dolby it is to early to tell. But at least it will go! Here is our first 11.1 audio processor:

http://www.barco.com/en/pressrelease/2807

Product info: http://www.barco.com/en/product/2439

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As of Jan 2012 I no longer work for Barco. So my comments do not represent the views of my former employer but only my own.

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post #2 of 73 Old 10-19-2011, 09:52 AM
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Any nearby theaters in NorthWest Oregon that will have this?
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post #3 of 73 Old 10-19-2011, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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We currently only have 3 beta sites in North-America. 1 in Miami and 2 in CA if I am correct.

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post #4 of 73 Old 10-19-2011, 08:38 PM
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Which theater in Miami? Is this going to be displayed at Shoeast?

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post #5 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 12:49 AM
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Am I understanding the speaker layout correctly? This is a standard LCR + surround arrays of conventional cinema + height channels on all four walls?

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post #6 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 03:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Am I understanding the speaker layout correctly? This is a standard LCR + surround arrays of conventional cinema + height channels on all four walls?

You are correct. We keep the existing 5.1/7.1 system and add what i callI a 5.1 ceiling mounted where the .1 is not the sub but a "voice of God" channel directly overhead of the audience.

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post #7 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 03:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I may have made an error. I will verify before you go running at the wrong site!

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post #8 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mporlier View Post

You are correct. We keep the existing 5.1/7.1 system and add what i callI a 5.1 ceiling mounted where the .1 is not the sub but a "voice of God" channel directly overhead of the audience.

How many speakers are required for this "voice of God" in a full sized commercial cinema? Given the width and depth of the seating, you'd need arrays?

I am now even more satisfied with my HT decision to keep the surrounds low. I can now add height speakers should an affordable HT equivalent ever come available.

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post #9 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 03:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

How many speakers are required for this "voice of God" in a full sized commercial cinema? Given the width and depth of the seating, you'd need arrays?

I am now even more satisfied with my HT decision to keep the surrounds low. I can now add height speakers should an affordable HT equivalent ever come available.

The number of speakers required is dictated by the room config. We are looking at a good coverage for every seat so yes, it can be a distributed speaker array.

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post #10 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by mporlier View Post

The number of speakers required is dictated by the room config. We are looking at a good coverage for every seat so yes, it can be a distributed speaker array.

When I first learned about Tom Holman's 10.2 system, my thoughts were about the cinema and how it might be implemented there. It seems you have done just that and created an excellent way to change what has essentially been the 'norm' for over 50 years. Awesome work. I hope I get the chance to hear one of these some day soon.

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post #11 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 03:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Well first, 5.1 has not been the norm for 50 years. At that time movies where mono. Sound is evolving quite fast indeed.

The very nice thing about Auro 3D is that it emulates a 11.1 out of a 5.1 in an extraordinary manner. Let's be realistic, we do not anticipate all the studios jumping on board with us in the next year. So we had to develop that "up mix" for regular movies. Let me tell you the result is astounding.

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post #12 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

How many speakers are required for this "voice of God" in a full sized commercial cinema? Given the width and depth of the seating, you'd need arrays? I am now even more satisfied with my HT decision to keep the surrounds low. I can now add height speakers should an affordable HT equivalent ever come available.

This video of the Auro-3D 11.1 cinema speaker configuration shows side|overhead speaker arrays.

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post #13 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Am I understanding the speaker layout correctly? This is a standard LCR + surround arrays of conventional cinema + height channels on all four walls?

Yes, but to be more specific, each surround speaker or channel has an upper and a lower version.
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post #14 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

[. . .] I am now even more satisfied with my HT decision to keep the surrounds low. I can now add height speakers should an affordable HT equivalent ever come available.

Most of my existing surround speakers were|are placed a little too high (the legacy of my starting out with a Yamaha DSP based surround system around 1990!) So when I started a Middle Layer surround speaker upgrade recently, I kept the older speakers in place to become (equivalent) Top Layer surrounds, and I'm installing the new surround speakers 'near ear level' -- which should position me 'ready' for an Auro-3D decoder equipped AVR if the speaker format and associated channel compression algorithm are successful in home theater. However, instead of a single Top Center (TpC) speaker directly overhead, I'm planning to try a 'dual mono' Top Side Left|Right (TpSiL|TpSiR) surround speaker pair 'cross firing 50%+50% from both side walls at ceiling level' (something like the height channel delivery mechanism employed in the "Alternate Telarc SACD 6.0 Height Playback Layout".)

[As the Auro-3D speaker layouts are 'compatible' with some likely downmix layouts for Hamasaki 22.2, odds are that most of the current planned 'overcapacity' in my system will get used sometime in the next decade! ]
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post #15 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Am I understanding the speaker layout correctly? This is a standard LCR + surround arrays of conventional cinema + height channels on all four walls?

Yes, but to be more specific, each surround speaker or channel has an upper and a lower version.

You can see the nominal room geometry in these [home] Auro-3D 9.1 layouts. [The Auro-3D 11.1 theater configuration for 'Red Tails' would add a center Height in front plus a Top Center directly overhead.]


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post #16 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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SoundChex you are correct. BTW in Miami next week we will have a second re-mastered trailer (not yet allowed to tell) and other sound tracks like music and Opera.

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post #17 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 12:14 PM
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I did run 2 extra sets of speaker cables behind my screen wall, so I'm covered in the front. Looks like I'm out of luck with the rears, though if the Auro 9.1 catches on for HT.

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post #18 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

When I first learned about Tom Holman's 10.2 system, my thoughts were about the cinema and how it might be implemented there.

Holman's height speaker implementation was a pair of speakers high above the L/R mains. Whether in a home theatre or a commercial cinema, a pair of speakers in front of the listeners (even high up) are not going to localize sound above the listeners. Taller soundstage? Yes. Overhead imaging? No.

So Auro is on the right track as far as speaker placement goes. Having height speakers spread out in front and back means that their phantom images will end up being in between: i.e., above the listeners. Can't do that with a pair of speakers high up on the front wall.

BTW, the upcoming Lexicon consumer surround processor (MP-20) is designed for a 12.4 speaker layout: 7 mains, 4 subs, 5 heights. Folks who heard this configuration in the Harman trailer at CEDIA last month said that the height effect worked as claimed, creating stable localization overhead.

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post #19 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by barhoram View Post

I did run 2 extra sets of speaker cables behind my screen wall, so I'm covered in the front. Looks like I'm out of luck with the rears, though if the Auro 9.1 catches on for HT.

I'm sure there will always be 'serious' HT fans who want to replicate the 'full theater' experience of [future] Auro-3D 13.1(6) movies...?!

. . . plus (perhaps next decade) future optical disk|IP|OTA|cable tv in SHV format with 22.2 channel audio...?!

[But you still have a few years left in which to install the additional wiring! ]

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post #20 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 01:38 PM
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So Auro is on the right track as far as speaker placement goes. Having height speakers spread out in front and back means that their phantom images will end up being in between: i.e., above the listeners. Can't do that with a pair of speakers high up on the front wall.

IIRC, the studio mix for the Auro-3D 11.1|12.1|13.1 configurations includes a discrete Top Center (overhead) channel. I thought one reason to limit the max theater channel config to 13.1 (i.e., 14 discrete channels) was that DCI compliant movie distribution servers can handle 16 audio channels, two of which are reserved for the hearing-, and sight-impaired headset tracks.

[I'm assuming that a 13.1(7) encode with separate LR|RR surround tracks instead of just (one) CS track -- and thus a total of 15 discrete tracks -- would be intended for a 7.1 PCM compatible BD (i.e., HT) mix only...?]

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post #21 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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SoundChex you are correct again. We want the least impact possible on existing installations and standards.

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post #22 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

IIRC, the studio mix for the Auro-3D 11.1|12.1|13.1 configurations includes a discrete Top Center (overhead) channel.

That's fine for theatrical releases, where that Top Centre channel can be reproduced by grid of multiple speakers overhead. Not so much for home use, where it would likely be reproduced by a single speaker overhead (worst location ever). That mono channel would be better off routed to height speakers that are away from the centre line, just as the mono surround-back channel on EX soundtracks is better routed to 2 rear speakers spread out on the back wall, or the mono LFE channel is better when reproduce by multiple subwoofers.

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post #23 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 03:15 PM
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The Auro-3D 11.1 theater configuration for 'Red Tails' would add a center Height in front plus a Top Center directly overhead.

Interesting. When I upgraded from passive speakers for LCR to 2 way active speakers last year, I left the passive speaker wires and their terminal plates intact. The idea being that at some point, a 9.1 upgrade would be a change of AVR + 2 new "height" speakers. The fact that have a centre "height" already in place might be of use even for "voice of God".

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post #24 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CAVX View Post


Interesting. When I upgraded from passive speakers for LCR to 2 way active speakers last year, I left the passive speaker wires and their terminal plates intact. The idea being that at some point, a 9.1 upgrade would be a change of AVR + 2 new "height" speakers. The fact that have a centre "height" already in place might be of use even for "voice of God".

Oh how I wish I had your problems, 9.1 or 11.1... I don't even have 5.1!!

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post #25 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 03:28 PM
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This video of the Auro-3D 11.1 cinema speaker configuration shows side|overhead speaker arrays.

And I can do just that as I have a curved AT Scope screen (with LCRs slightly lower than normally recommended - another story for another time) and a shelf above the screen with at least 8" to the ceiling - perfect for "height" speakers or an upper LCR array if required.

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post #26 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 03:39 PM
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Oh how I wish I had your problems, 9.1 or 11.1... I don't even have 5.1!!

LOL. The room was done on a budget, but it was thought out so it would accommodate my present system (THX processed 7.1) as well as allow future upgrades - ie lots of access to run new cables. I'll admit, the height channel thing is more coincidence than planing though, but looks as if it has worked in my favor so I'll run with that for now.

Because I based my room on a scaled down "real" cinema, the screen does go wall to wall and the problem of where to place "wide" speakers was always a concern - especially after hearing them in a friends HT (he now has an 11.2 system) I came to the conclusion that they added more to the experience than they subtracted.

The question that always played over in my head was - where do these new speakers get mounted for a real cinema that uses arrays for the surrounds. It appears that this new system does not have specific "wide" speakers, so hopefully I'm covered there too

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post #27 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 05:01 PM
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The question that always played over in my head was - where do these new speakers get mounted for a real cinema that uses arrays for the surrounds. It appears that this new system does not have specific "wide" speakers, so hopefully I'm covered there too

Keep in mind that [even] the DCI allows for a channel|speaker lineup with entries different from those present in the Auro-3D 11.1|12.1|13.1 configurations, most obviously the Left Center (Lc) and Right Center (Rc) pair (used in the SDDS configuration). The Auro-3D speaker configurations would seen to offer 'excellent' general movie performance, and perhaps be unbeatable for playing an air combat movie like 'Red Tails'. Nonetheless a hypothetical video of the stage musical The Hunting of the Snark (which I saw with David McCallum playing Lewis Caroll!) -- and which featured the on-stage orchestra mounted on an elevator frequently lifted from the stage almost to the proscenium arch -- would likely benefit from more numerous front channels (and fewer surrounds). So perhaps best not to limit your speaker placement choices just yet!

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post #28 of 73 Old 10-20-2011, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Keep in mind that [even] the DCI allows for a channel|speaker lineup with entries different from those present in the Auro-3D 11.1|12.1|13.1 configurations, most obviously the Left Center (Lc) and Right Center (Rc) pair (used in the SDDS configuration). The Auro-3D speaker configurations would seen to offer 'excellent' general movie performance, and perhaps be unbeatable for playing an air combat movie like 'Red Tails'. Nonetheless a hypothetical video of the stage musical The Hunting of the Snark (which I saw with David McCallum playing Lewis Caroll!) -- and which featured the on-stage orchestra mounted on an elevator frequently lifted from the stage almost to the proscenium arch -- would likely benefit from more numerous front channels (and fewer surrounds). So perhaps best not to limit your speaker placement choices just yet!

Good point. Whilst I've entertained the idea of 5 screen channels, I only have an 8 foot wide screen, so 3 LCRs is about as far as I can go there. Having heard SONY's 8CH SDDS system, there is reason why one would go there, but in the end of the day, I just find four discrete surrounds like in 7.1 (Transformers Dark Of The Moon) to be more engaging than those extra screen channels. I would not sweat that one too much.

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post #29 of 73 Old 10-21-2011, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Keep in mind that [even] the DCI allows for a channel|speaker lineup with entries different from those present in the Auro-3D 11.1|12.1|13.1 configurations, most obviously the Left Center (Lc) and Right Center (Rc) pair (used in the SDDS configuration). The Auro-3D speaker configurations would seen to offer 'excellent' general movie performance, and perhaps be unbeatable for playing an air combat movie like 'Red Tails'. Nonetheless a hypothetical video of the stage musical The Hunting of the Snark (which I saw with David McCallum playing Lewis Caroll!) -- and which featured the on-stage orchestra mounted on an elevator frequently lifted from the stage almost to the proscenium arch -- would likely benefit from more numerous front channels (and fewer surrounds). So perhaps best not to limit your speaker placement choices just yet!

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post #30 of 73 Old 10-21-2011, 05:50 AM
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While this is intriguing, I just can't see this format gaining any kind of acceptance in the home market. We are all junkies on this forum but who has the time, money and room to support 11.1? I know it just wouldn't be feasible in my HT room, too complicated to wire everything up for beginners.
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