Dolby Atmos Theatre System - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1276 Old 12-12-2012, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I wouldnt take a list from a Hobbit fan site to be definitive at this point... wink.gif

I knew there was good news to look forward too!!! biggrin.gif

Dolby updated their site with more atmos locations.
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/cinema/dolby-atmos.html?utm_campaign=cin-atmos-pro&utm_medium=banner&utm_source=dcinematoday&utm_content=atmos-intro

Tyson's Corner Here I come!!!

Devo
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post #452 of 1276 Old 12-12-2012, 05:10 PM
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With 'The Hobbit' being the last film in 2012 to be in Atmos, I thought I would post trailers (just came out this week) for a couple of 2013 movies already announced as being in Atmos:


PACIFIC RIM




STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS



Can't wait till next summer!

Sanjay
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post #453 of 1276 Old 12-13-2012, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumble Devo View Post

I knew there was good news to look forward too!!! biggrin.gif
Dolby updated their site with more atmos locations.
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/cinema/dolby-atmos.html?utm_campaign=cin-atmos-pro&utm_medium=banner&utm_source=dcinematoday&utm_content=atmos-intro
Tyson's Corner Here I come!!!

ME TOO!!! Woohooo good to have more choices on the Eastern Seaboard!

Buncha savages in this town....

Sam Posten
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post #454 of 1276 Old 12-14-2012, 08:20 AM
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Darn my closest theater is in Illinois. I'm in kentucky blah. I was hoping for something in st. louis area of Missouri or Ohio
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post #455 of 1276 Old 12-17-2012, 04:06 AM
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Jackie Chan's movie will be in Atmos

http://dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=3077

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #456 of 1276 Old 12-17-2012, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The technical guidelines paper for Atmos seems to be stating the opposite:
"However, surround speakers are typically not designed for the reproduction of frequency much below 100 Hz. Dolby has found that the low-frequency performance for surround speakers can be improved by using bass management to redirect the bass information from the surround feeds to stereo subwoofers at the back of the room."
Where does Atmos 'specifically call for full range speakers'? Do you have a link?

I just realized they call out full range surrounds at this video:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/cinema/dolby-atmos.html?utm_campaign=cin-atmos-pro

Buncha savages in this town....

Sam Posten
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post #457 of 1276 Old 12-17-2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadath View Post

I just realized they call out full range surrounds at this video:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/cinema/dolby-atmos.html?utm_campaign=cin-atmos-pro
No, they don't "call out" for anything in the video. A re-recording mixer from Park Road Post, NOT Dolby Labs, mentions going from "limited quality surrounds" to "full range, full level surround". I'm not sure what he's talking about since current surround channels are not limited quality but already full range and full level lossless audio.

In any case, a re-recording mixer that works for a post production facility mentioning full range surrounds in a moment of excitement is very different than claiming "Atmos very specifically calls for full range speakers". It doesn't, evidenced by Atmos introducing bass management in commercial cinemas.

Sanjay
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post #458 of 1276 Old 12-17-2012, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadath View Post

I just realized they call out full range surrounds at this video:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/cinema/dolby-atmos.html?utm_campaign=cin-atmos-pro

Our company is in the middle of installing out first Atmos system.

I spent a bit of time evaluating "surrounds" and speking with two of Dolbys engineers intimately involved with Atmos...

The speakers decided on are most assuredly noy full range to 20Hz... I'd say good to 40

You have the option to bass manage those, but it isnt a requirement ... as a matter of fact, I beleive Dolby has the same speakers our compnay decided on installed in their LA office and.they are not using bass management for them
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post #459 of 1276 Old 12-17-2012, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

You have the option to then bass manage those, but it isnt a requirement

Bass management isn't mandatory? Doesn't that create inconsistencies?

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #460 of 1276 Old 12-17-2012, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Bass management isn't mandatory?
Commercial movie theatres didn't have bass management until now, which is why the .1/LFE channel was originally invented.
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Doesn't that create inconsistencies?
Inconsistencies already happen, because mixes vary so much: e.g., the movie 'Deep Impact' has very little bass in any of its main channels and almost all of it in the LFE channel, while the first 'Transformers' movie has most of its bass in the front L/R channels with not so much in the LFE channel.

Sanjay
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post #461 of 1276 Old 12-18-2012, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Commercial movie theatres didn't have bass management
[...]
Inconsistencies already happen

I know. Dolby creates de facto standards. They could have taken the chance to improve on consistency. In the end they probably hurt themselves with such a "flexible" approach. At least the production facilities should adhere to strict standards. There's probably a big difference between mixing with surrounds going down to 40Hz and surrounds in a bass managed configuration.

Markus

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post #462 of 1276 Old 12-18-2012, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I know I'm one who doesn't like to derail threads, but thought my experience yesterday was useful to the discussion.
Wen't and saw "Rise of the Guardians" yesterday at the Grove in Los Angeles in Auro 3D 11.1.
Surprisingly there were no trailers before hand to announce the presence of such a system.
The room was rather large (I'd estimate 450 seats) with a floor to ceiling screen. Had a fair rake to it. No 3D, but it was one of the most gorgeous visual experiences I've had in a while... bright, sharp and beautifully colorful.
I sat probably 3 rows in front of dead center, middle of the room.
The theater was using typical surrounds (they looked to be JBL's from what I could see...) they were the smaller wedge type, and spaced out about every other row.
They were raked with slope of the seats, and I'd guess that they were about 7 feet above the audiences head.
They started about 10 feet from the screen (typical surround install.)
The second row of speakers were another 6-8 feet above them.
The overheads were the same smallish speakers as the surrounds, two rows spaced out about the same as the surrounds.. aesthetically, they looked kind of funny being so small and up so high.... I was expecting to see more speakers for the size of the room.
I'm taking all of my own comments with a lot of caveats...
This was my first time hearing the system, and I don't know the mix of the film, and have never been in that room before.
Based on the trailers of other films, I would say the room is really a good sounding room, well above average, with plenty of power, good low end, great clarity.
Once the film started, for the first 10 minutes I wasn't sure if the format was playing back.. it sounded really good, but I had a hard time discerning anything different.
As it went on (and I only was able to watch the first 50 minutes) I noticed some nice overhead cues, and what I would describe as "height" depth to the surrounds...
I'm not sure how the extra LCR behind the screen is set up.. I can't imagine they added anything significant behind there, but I'd suspect it's a larger speaker than the surrounds, but not a full blown 2 way cabinet..
I know a lot of people were a bit underwhelmed by the Atmos mix on "Brave.."
However, it was really obvious how the system was different (the trailer gave a good impression of the capabilities of the system..)
With the speakers right off the front of the screen, the music had an amazing amount of spread to it... there were several overhead pans (the Disney logo at the start goes right over your head from the sides)
Even though it wasn't flashy, it was enveloping in a way I hadn't heard before..
To me, the Auro system suffers from band limited surrounds in an array, which is very diffuse.. stacking another array on top of them doesn't add to the discrete nature of the sounds with this mix as an example.
I would imagine it could also lead to comb filtering when "lifting" sounds from the bottom to the top depending on where you are seated.
One other thing I noticed was a dialog pan from the surrounds/height speakers behind the screen/overheads was how the timbre changed in the voice... IMO, it wasn't seamless.
That is one of the things that I love about Atmos... you now have speakers besides the mains that are very capable and fairly timbre matched... in addition to bass management, they just sound very similar to whats coming off the screen.... in addition, when mixing, you are able to use the sphere as single point sources if you want or spread out sounds to create and array type of bed...
For full disclosure, let me state a couple of things before I wrap this up.
I was actually invited to the screening by a company who was going to do exit interviews on camera about the experience who were there on behalf of Barco..
When I found out about the interview, I told them I would not do it due to my employers policies (and I even if I could, I wouldn't do it for fairly obvious reasons.)
I wasn't informed of this before I showed up... the owner of the production company/PR firm had posted on FB he had tickets for anyone in the community that was interested.. no mention that he was working the screening.
There was some mix up about the tickets with the theater, and I decided to buy my own.
I wasn't upset about this in the least, and lest anyone from Barco read this and think I might have been bothered by this rest assured that my comments weren't influenced as such.
Again, this was my first opportunity to hear the system.
I've had the opportunity to hear Atmos in a couple of settings (2 screenings of "Brave" and a two hour meeting at Dolby where I heard a ton of various content, saw the production tools, was able to hear 7.1 vs. Atmos, etc..)
IMO, I'd like to hear Auro in a smaller venue.
I think some of the limitations (i.e. arrays for surrounds and overheads, no full range speakers in the auditorium, etc.) would dissipate..
But I wasn't knocked out by the presentation yesterday...


Mark "FilmMixer",
I really disagree with your comments on the "Auro 11.1 Rise of the Guardians”. I know the film well as I mixed the "Auro 11.1" version of it at my company "The Dub Stage" in Burbank.
Here is a link to a video of the mix:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke1Eg8Mq-mw
Your observation of the opening is exactly the way the client (“DreamWorks”) wanted it. That is exactly the same as the 5.1 mix done by Andy Nelson and Jim Bolt who mixed it at Fox Studios. The Director and especially the Composer wanted a much more front wall dry sounding score. Jim Bolt gave us instructions on the history of the sound/ style of the music. I tried a few things on my part to open it up and even asked for the original room mikes that were recoded in the scoring mix. With oversight of the DreamWorks Music Supervisor and Jim Bolt we were allowed to open up (enhance) the music slightly but far from the style that either you Mark or I would normally do. When one is brought in to create an 11.1 mix we must be true to the Director and in this case the composer’s desires. We (Chris Jacobson my Sound Effects Mixer) did greatly enhance the elements that we were given to us by Oscar Award Supervising Sound Editor Richard King who was at both the original mix and Supervised the “Barco Auro-3D 11.1 “ at “the Dub Stage”. Neither the “Auro” nor the “Atmos” mix was with all the original elements but with stems and split out elements that were used when needed to create a unique sound field. I have heard both formats of “Rise of the Guardians” and I do believe that the “Auro 11.1” mix is a better engulfing experience.
To give you some background on my facility:
It has a 37-speaker Meyer Acheron system. All speakers are self-powered and eq’d and delayed to the mix position.
The layout is as follows:
3 Lower Left, Center, Right Meyer Acheron 80’s
3 Upper Left center Right Meyer Acheron 80’s
4 Meyer X-800C Subwoofers (Dual 18”)
10 Lower Surround Meyer HMS 10 Surround Speakers
10 Upper Surround Meyer HMS 10 Surround Speakers
4 Top (Voice of God) HMS 10 surround Speaker
3 500-HP Subwoofers (Dual 12”)

The Left Surrounds (Upper and Lower) are Bass Managed into a 500- HP sub
The Right Surround (Upper and Lower) are Bass Managed into a 500-HP sub
The “Voice of God” and the Back Wall (Upper and Lower Surrounds) are
Bass Managed into a 500-HP sub


This then creates full range surrounds that match the timber and frequency response of the Main speakers when panning from front to back etc.

As you said in your post Mark “I'm taking all of my own comments with a lot of caveats…”

Since you did not see the whole film of “Rise of the Guardians” and did mention on your post:
“IMO, I'd like to hear Auro in a smaller venue.
I think some of the limitations (i.e. arrays for surrounds and overheads, no full range speakers in the auditorium, etc.) would dissipate..
But I wasn't knocked out by the presentation yesterday..”

I would like you Mark to contact me and set up a time to listen in a
Type of room where BOTH you and I make our living and then we can
make accurate comments based upon our experience and knowledge.
As it stands by your post I do not feel your review of the “Auro 11.1” mix format
or that of the “Barco Auro -3D 11.1 Mix of Rise of the Guardians”
as a complete and fact filled review.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadath View Post

I just realized they call out full range surrounds at this video:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/cinema/dolby-atmos.html?utm_campaign=cin-atmos-pro

Our company is in the middle of installing out first Atmos system.

I spent a bit of time evaluating "surrounds" and speking with two of Dolbys engineers intimately involved with Atmos...

The speakers decided on are most assuredly noy full range to 20Hz... I'd say good to 40


You have the option to bass manage those, but it isnt a requirement ... as a matter of fact, I beleive Dolby has the same speakers our compnay decided on installed in their LA office and.they are not using bass management for them



Seems like the 35 - 40 Hz area is an accurate FR for surrounds. Notice two different uses of the term "bass management" and "full range" in the two systems mentioned above by both posters.


"The 500-HP subwoofer boasts an operating frequency range of 35 Hz to 140 Hz and a peak SPL of 135 dB at 1 meter. Designed and manufactured at Meyer Sound's Berkeley, California headquarters, the unit's two 12-inch cone drivers are engineered to deliver optimal subwoofer performance. The high-excursion, back-vented drivers, each with 4-inch voice coils, are rated to handle 1200 W (AES)* and housed in a tuned, rectangular enclosure that has the same width as the M'elodie loudspeaker."



http://www.meyersound.com/products/ultraseries/500hp/
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post #463 of 1276 Old 12-18-2012, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadath View Post

Keep in mind that Atmos very specifically calls for full range speakers. That's going to limit just how small you can make those overheads.
The technical guidelines paper for Atmos seems to be stating the opposite:

"However, surround speakers are typically not designed for the reproduction of frequency much below 100 Hz. Dolby has found that the low-frequency performance for surround speakers can be improved by using bass management to redirect the bass information from the surround feeds to stereo subwoofers at the back of the room."

Where does Atmos 'specifically call for full range speakers'? Do you have a link?


That is all a bit of semantics. See my posting above.

A full range speaker is a speaker that is capable of playing down to around 40 Hz (or better). Some of the AVS crowd redefines "full range" to mean a 20 Hz low end, a 15 Hz low end, a 10 Hz low end and on and on and on.

The surround subwoofer spec listed in the posting above speaks for itself. I guess that surround subwoofer is not a real subwoofer since it can not play bass down to 20 Hz!
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post #464 of 1276 Old 12-18-2012, 09:46 AM
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I'm a layman on all of this so I defer to your greater experiences. I thought it interesting that the promo video on Dolby's own site says essentially the same thing that Dolby told me while I was visiting them last month. They never mentioned specific frequency ranges or bass management in either instance.

Buncha savages in this town....

Sam Posten
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post #465 of 1276 Old 12-23-2012, 03:54 PM
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I wish the AMC in Rockaway nj had Atmos. Theater #1 could get it.
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post #466 of 1276 Old 12-31-2012, 11:15 AM
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I saw The Hobbit with Dolby Atmos sound over the weekend at the Showplace Icon in Chicago. (Also 3D, High Frame Rate.)

It appeared that there were two rows of five ceiling speakers plus another five or six along the back wall.

There was a Dolby Atmos trailer before the movie. I even noticed poster ads for Dolby Atmos in the nearby CTA subway station!

I thought the Atmos system worked quite effectively. However, I don't think I'd go too far out of my way for a screening with the system.

BTW, I very much liked the 48fps HFR and might go out of my way for that...
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post #467 of 1276 Old 02-05-2013, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Johnson View Post

I saw The Hobbit with Dolby Atmos sound over the weekend at the Showplace Icon in Chicago. (Also 3D, High Frame Rate.)

It appeared that there were two rows of five ceiling speakers plus another five or six along the back wall.

There was a Dolby Atmos trailer before the movie. I even noticed poster ads for Dolby Atmos in the nearby CTA subway station!

I thought the Atmos system worked quite effectively. However, I don't think I'd go too far out of my way for a screening with the system.

BTW, I very much liked the 48fps HFR and might go out of my way for that...

You'd rather drive for HFR over ATMOS! Madness! lol jk


Just got back from watching The Impossible (2012) and saw that it was mixed in IMM sound? Didn't Dolby buy out IMM awhile back? Was this film ever released in atmos/imm?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #468 of 1276 Old 02-20-2013, 07:09 AM
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'Oblivion,' 'The Croods,' 'Monsters University,' 'Iron Man 3' Will Get Atmos Treatment

Oblivion will be mixed natively in Atmos...


"Oblivion is currently being mixed in Dolby Atmos at Skywalker Sound by Academy Award winning re-recording mixer Gary Rizzo (dialogue and music) and re-recording mixer Juan Peralta (FX), as well as sound designer Ren Klyce. This is expected to be the first native Atmos mix on a Hollywood title".

http://soundworkscollection.com/news/oblivion-the-croods-monsters-university-iron-man-3-will-get-atmos-treatment

Devo
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post #469 of 1276 Old 02-28-2013, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

their insistence on using a perf screen mandatorily preempts using solid screen, also torus rooms (essential for quality polarized fp) has issues with rear speakers aimed forward instead of voice of god on a tilt forward down.

They will have to address this for giant flat panel installs at home so why be so conservative?
You mean they refuse to sell you a CP850 unless you adhere to their screen requirements?
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post #470 of 1276 Old 03-01-2013, 10:36 PM
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You mean they refuse to sell you a CP850 unless you adhere to their screen requirements?

Darn right,
They wont support me on a torus install this year. But they eventually will have to deal with fixed screens.

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post #471 of 1276 Old 03-02-2013, 01:08 AM
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For now you need Dolby approval of every Atmos installation and the Atmos technical guidelines clearly state that the speakers needs to be behind the screen. If any HT version of Atmos will require any approval from Dolby remains to be seen.
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post #472 of 1276 Old 03-05-2013, 09:34 PM
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The point being eventually atmos will arrive to HT, how are they going to handle flat screens?
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post #473 of 1276 Old 03-05-2013, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

The point being eventually atmos will arrive to HT, how are they going to handle flat screens?
They will have no control over consumers, same as today.
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post #474 of 1276 Old 03-06-2013, 01:17 PM
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So why are they refusing to sell you the CP850? Speakers aren't behind the screen?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #475 of 1276 Old 03-12-2013, 08:30 AM
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After catching up on this entire thread color me a moron when it comes to "object-based" audio vs what we're working with now.

Example:

Current 7.1 : a helicopter flies by (front to back) on the right side of my screen...it "starts" in the front right channel, gravitates towards the right surround, and eventually pans to and "through" the rear right channel.

Got it.

"Object based surround" (within my existing 7.1): as I understand it, does EXACTLY what I described above, unless I add additional speakers to my current array.

Prolly an obvious "well, duh" , but my question is an honest one as I read time after time that Atmos is- essentially- "channel agnostic", but stil an improvement over what we currently employ.

Yes, I suppose intrinsically it is in the respect that it doesn't "demand" more speakers. I understand it has the ability to be scalable to any speaker config, but isn't that akin to saying existing 7.1 tracks are "scalable" to a 5.1 (or less) config?

I'm not trying to drag out the "gotta buy more speakers argument" but really, it seems to me that much of what Atmos accomplishes significantly revolves around the addition of overhead speakers which- wait for it- virtually no one currently owns.

Now, if it easily integrates into existing 7/9/11.1 arrays, that's great, but it still doesn't give a layman like me a good idea of what Atmos adds (over what currently exists or will soon exist with NEO X 9/11 channel mixes) in and of itself without the addition of new, overhead (and/or other areas) speakers.

Try it like this: for someone who owns a traditional 7.1 array, what would adding Atmos processing- and just the processing- change?

thanks,

James

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post #476 of 1276 Old 03-12-2013, 08:35 AM
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what would adding Atmos processing- and just the processing- change?

thanks,

James

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post #477 of 1276 Old 03-12-2013, 08:44 AM
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^ I'm not trying to be difficult, it just seems that some very knowledgeable folks here are implying that the tech alone improves surround sound and I'm simply not grasping how it does without the addition of more loudspeakers.

I am very much open to learning how it does as I seem to have little better to do with my disposable income at this point in my life than to purchase A/V gear that makes things more enjoyable. smile.giftongue.gif

Not that this appears to be coming to our home market anytime soon anyway.

James

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post #478 of 1276 Old 03-12-2013, 08:56 AM
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"Object based surround" (within my existing 7.1): as I understand it, does EXACTLY what I described above, unless I add additional speakers to my current array.

Correct. The full potential of object based audio is only unleashed with new rendering methods (more speakers, binaural processing, etc.).

Markus

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post #479 of 1276 Old 03-12-2013, 09:24 AM
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^ I'm not trying to be difficult, it just seems that some very knowledgeable folks here are implying that the tech alone improves surround sound and I'm simply not grasping how it does without the addition of more loudspeakers.

I am very much open to learning how it does as I seem to have little better to do with my disposable income at this point in my life than to purchase A/V gear that makes things more enjoyable. smile.giftongue.gif

Not that this appears to be coming to our home market anytime soon anyway.

James
Yep. At this time, Atmos is a commercial product with no real consumer release yet in sight. If and when it does get to consumer release, you're correct that folks with limited speaker setups will receive less than the full benefit of it, much like folks with a stereo setup don't really benefit from a 5.1 mix, or folks with a 5.1 setup don't benefit from a 7.1 mix.

The benefits a 9.1 setup with no Heights might receive could potentially be better pans if the speaker setup/measurement/calibration software is good (in the home version), but the full benefit will require probably the 5.1 + 2 wides, + 2 rears, + 4 heights = 13.1. Oh, and of course, soundtracks specifically mixed for the format.


Max
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post #480 of 1276 Old 03-12-2013, 12:08 PM
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Try it like this: for someone who owns a traditional 7.1 array, what would adding Atmos processing- and just the processing- change?
The main advantage with Atmos is that its rendering engine will know where your 7 speakers are (where = distance, elevation, azimuth). This is helpful because speakers aren't always laid out identically in different home theatres: e.g., my side speakers are slightly forward of my listening position (around ±80°), others have them directly to the sides (±90°) and I know people whose 7.1 set-ups are basically 5.1 layouts (sides at ±110°) with a pair of rear speakers in between. In the first and last example, a sound intended to be heard directly at your left side can be rendered at that location by phantoming the sound between adjacent speakers.

With object based mixing, if the rendering engine can't find a speaker at the desired location, it will use more than one speaker to render the sound at that intended location. This isn't possible with a channel-based approach because the mixer would put the sound in the left side channel and it's location in your room would be dependant on the placement of your left side speaker (the mixer has to hope that your side speakers are directly at your sides). With Atmos decoding, you have more flexibility in placing your speakers AND still getting the intended directionality.

Same with a helicopter sound that is supposed to image above you. If the Atmos rendering engine notices that your side speakers are elevated 2-3 feet above ear level, and therefore capable of creating a phantom image above you, it will send that helicopter sound to your side speakers. But it is making that routing choice only because the renderer knows where your speakers are AND the sound effect is tagged with a specific location (not a particular channel). So even with your current layout, there would be advantages.

Sanjay
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