Dolby Atmos Theatre System - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1315 Old 06-28-2013, 03:10 PM
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Nice write-up Roger. In looking at all of the various surround codecs, the Atmos (or Atmos-like as is the case of Auro3D) made the most sense to me for many different reasons - primarily because of the cluster of overhead speakers.

I guess the million dollar question is how long will it take for such clearly superior surround technologies to trickle down to residential products, if only at the high-end?
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post #542 of 1315 Old 06-28-2013, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Really? When Zod first addresses the Earth, the shots at the military base had his voice directly overhead asthough coming from PA speakers. That was the most obvious example I heard, though there were others (Coast Guard helicopter leaving the burning oil rig).
Yes, I heard the flyover from the rig, elevated as I mentioned. It was not directly overhead, but up and to the right which agreed with the onscreen image, so that seemed fine to me. Nothing felt overhead -- anymore than the phantom overhead effect from Prometheus at the ArcLight. It seemed to me the height arrays were widely spaced, leaving lot of open territory between.
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My experience with Auro3D has been the opposite of your's: the two movies I saw (Red Tails, Rise of the Guardians) had me wondering whether the additional speakers were even on. Maybe those mixes don't translate from the studio (where you heard it) to commercial theatres (where I heard them).
I thought Red Tails was basically an upmix? Dunno, but I cannot speak to that, as I never heard Red Tails. It was not mixed at Dub Stage, but at Skywalker.

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post #543 of 1315 Old 06-28-2013, 03:25 PM
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The theater I was at at 2 rows of speakers going down the near middle of the theater, maybe 10-12 feet or so apart. Overhead effects did present themselves as being over my head, at least in the theater I was at.

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post #544 of 1315 Old 06-28-2013, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Done Deal DR View Post

The theater I was at at 2 rows of speakers going down the near middle of the theater, maybe 10-12 feet or so apart. Overhead effects did present themselves as being over my head, at least in the theater I was at.
Maybe there is some variation in how these retrofits are able to be accomplished. I think they would ideally have been closer together in Agoura, but who knows if that was possible...

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post #545 of 1315 Old 06-28-2013, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Maybe there is some variation in how these retrofits are able to be accomplished. I think they would ideally have been closer together in Agoura, but who knows if that was possible...
It might be theatre to theatre variation (I saw MoS at Arclight Sherman Oaks) and/or relative differences in perception. Surrounds typically sound elevated to me (not ear level) so the Coast Guard helicopter sounded overhead by comparison, whereas it sounded merely elevated to you (maybe you perceive surrounds closer to ear level?). In any case, my experience was similar to Done Deal DR with the Atmos mix for this movie.

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post #546 of 1315 Old 06-28-2013, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Maybe there is some variation in how these retrofits are able to be accomplished. I think they would ideally have been closer together in Agoura, but who knows if that was possible...

Yeah based on what your theater was like and the one I attended that certainly seems to be the case. It's odd that Dolby doesn't impose stricter guidelines, but either way I'm sure it still sounded great. The additional speakers and directionality clearly have a positive effect regardless of the intricacies of placement.

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post #547 of 1315 Old 06-28-2013, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

I guess the million dollar question is how long will it take for such clearly superior surround technologies to trickle down to residential products, if only at the high-end?

I suspect even after we see the HDMI 2.0 Specification and 'revised for 4K' BD standards 'promised for Fall 2013' that the best we'll be able to say is the delivery mechanisms are "allowed for". The business models for 3D audio movie home sales do not immediately look very good--I can easy see Joe6Pack wanting to upgrade his TV from 1080p with 2.0 channel audio to 4K2K with 2.0 audio, it's somewhat harder to foresee great demand for 4K2K with 22.2 audio (or 1080p with 10.2 audio) models. cool.gif

Perhaps when|if True Blood, Game of Thrones, etc., are eventually broadcast in UHDTV with 3D audio, that might create some aftermarket demand for 4K2K disks with 3D audio . . . but not for certain.
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post #548 of 1315 Old 06-28-2013, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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"3D" audio will not need HDMI 2.0. It can actually be handled on current BD format. The problem? No content, and no decoders. Other than that, it's ready. rolleyes.gif

Give it a year or 3...

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post #549 of 1315 Old 06-28-2013, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I guess you are saying they are different mixes otherwise what is the difference between PCM and Dolby that gets converted to PCM?

No.. there is no special 5.1 or 7.1 within the DCP... it is pure PCM.

There is no "different mix."
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post #550 of 1315 Old 06-29-2013, 08:10 AM
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hello all,

in Chicago this week and visited the showplace icon dolby atoms theater.
the dobly atoms intro was awesome. it's like imax without the bass.
the speakers on the ceiling was the difference. the movie is was THE HEAT.
the film was awful, still don't know why it was coded in atoms? I need
to see an action film to get the full effect. WHITE HOUSE DOWN is
playing but not in atoms. heading back to philly on Monday. hopefully
we'll get a atoms theater soon.

June
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post #551 of 1315 Old 06-29-2013, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldsonjune View Post

hello all,

in Chicago this week and visited the showplace icon dolby atoms theater.
the dobly atoms intro was awesome. it's like imax without the bass.
the speakers on the ceiling was the difference. the movie is was THE HEAT.
the film was awful, still don't know why it was coded in atoms? I need
to see an action film to get the full effect. WHITE HOUSE DOWN is
playing but not in atoms. heading back to philly on Monday. hopefully
we'll get a atoms theater soon.

Is atoms the same thing as ATMOS ?? confused.gif

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post #552 of 1315 Old 06-29-2013, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

Is atoms the same thing as ATMOS ?? confused.gif

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Originally Posted by donaldsonjune View Post

hello all,

in Chicago this week and visited the showplace icon dolby atoms theater.
the dobly atoms intro was awesome. it's like imax without the bass.
the speakers on the ceiling was the difference. the movie is was THE HEAT.
the film was awful, still don't know why it was coded in atoms? I need
to see an action film to get the full effect. WHITE HOUSE DOWN is
playing but not in atoms. heading back to philly on Monday. hopefully
we'll get a atoms theater soon.

Or I'm guessing autocorrect wink.gif damn thing I know.. tongue.gif

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post #553 of 1315 Old 06-29-2013, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

Is atoms the same thing as ATMOS ?? confused.gif
Much, much smaller.

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post #554 of 1315 Old 06-29-2013, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldsonjune View Post

the movie is was THE HEAT.
the film was awful, still don't know why it was coded in atoms?

You are certainly entitled to your opinion about the film.

However, I take exception with the second comment.

It is very narrow to wonder why the film was done in Atmos.

When 5.1 came out, there were surely others that thought "well it's great for action films, but not every film should be done in it... LtRt is good enough."

While there are certainly less opportunities to fly stuff around the theater in a film like THE HEAT, it benefits the track in subtle, but meaningful ways.

As I've mentioned before, the surround presentation is much more satisfying and rich, even with the subtle ambiences but especially with the music.

Although only used a couple of times, it was great to be able to have off screen dialog walk up the wall, so to speak.

Finally, and most substantially, being able to pull the music off the screen, even the slightest bit, wraps the score around you.

I applaud Fox for whole heartedly supporting the format, which requires spending money that they otherwise wouldn't.

But to dismiss films, or question why they bothered, because they aren't always flashy and in your face, will only slow the acceptance of Atmos, Auro or any other new developments on the horizon...

Any track will benefit front these new technologies if used properly....

Just my .02 smile.gif
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post #555 of 1315 Old 06-29-2013, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Any track will benefit front these new technologies if used properly....

Just my .02 smile.gif
+1

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post #556 of 1315 Old 06-30-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post


My experience with Auro3D has been the opposite of your's: the two movies I saw (Red Tails, Rise of the Guardians) had me wondering whether the additional speakers were even on. Maybe those mixes don't translate from the studio (where you heard it) to commercial theatres (where I heard them).

Red Tails was not mixed at "The Dub Stage". It was remixed into "Auro-3D " after the original mix that was done at "Skywalker Sound" at Galaxy Studios by the original mix crew and sound supervisor.
George Lucas liked what he heard in the 5.1 and didn't want to drastically change the mix so I would say that "Red Tails" was a light version of "Auro".
As for "Rise of the Guardians", that was remixed into "Auro-3D 11.1" at "The Dub Stage" by yours truly.
It had quite a bit of use of the height speakers and the overheads. It DOES translate from "the studio to commercial theaters".
I do take exception to your comment. Roger Dressler came to "The Dub Stage" and heard examples and left impressed.
I personally spent less than 5 minutes talking with him and that was mostly in a room full of clients who were kind enough to
stop a mix I was doing to accommodate Rogers desire to hear "Auro-3D 11.1" and "The Dub Stage".
As more films are mixed in both formats (Auro and Atmos) then I think one will be able to truly appreciate the difference that "immersive sound" brings to the screen.
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post #557 of 1315 Old 06-30-2013, 10:02 PM
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Nice find!

The PDF was removed frown.gif
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post #558 of 1315 Old 06-30-2013, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

"3D" audio will not need HDMI 2.0. It can actually be handled on current BD format. The problem? No content, and no decoders. Other than that, it's ready. rolleyes.gif

Give it a year or 3...

Hopefully not three frown.gif it seems yo liked Auro3D better is that correct!
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post #559 of 1315 Old 06-30-2013, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post

As for "Rise of the Guardians", that was remixed into "Auro-3D 11.1" at "The Dub Stage" by yours truly.
It had quite a bit of use of the height speakers and the overheads. It DOES translate from "the studio to commercial theaters".
I do take exception to your comment.
You had likewise taken exception to similar comments by Marc (Filmmixer). Having gone to the Pacific 14 at The Grove to experience the movie in Auro-3D, I stand by my comments, since they accurately reflect what I heard. Keep in mind I had already seen it Atmos at the Arclight Sherman Oaks, so I had a point of comparison when it came to things like movement in the surround field and overhead directionality.

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post #560 of 1315 Old 06-30-2013, 11:43 PM - Thread Starter
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The PDF was removed frown.gif
There was a typo in the link. Try this.

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post #561 of 1315 Old 06-30-2013, 11:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Hopefully not three frown.gif it seems yo liked Auro3D better is that correct!
I think what I am responding to primarily is the 3-layer speaker arrangement vs. the 2-layers of Atmos. I'm looking forward to investigating that further.

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post #562 of 1315 Old 07-01-2013, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

You had likewise taken exception to similar comments by Marc (Filmmixer). Having gone to the Pacific 14 at The Grove to experience the movie in Auro-3D, I stand by my comments, since they accurately reflect what I heard. Keep in mind I had already seen it Atmos at the Arclight Sherman Oaks, so I had a point of comparison when it came to things like movement in the surround field and overhead directionality.
I did not forget your comment.That is why I made my statement.
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Hopefully not three frown.gif it seems yo liked Auro3D better is that correct!
I think what I am responding to primarily is the 3-layer speaker arrangement vs. the 2-layers of Atmos. I'm looking forward to investigating that further.

Looking at the new Certified Auro-3D Home Theater demo room at Stassen Hifi's Palazzo AV store in The Netherlands, I foresee a number of "WAF problems" (plus increases in Homeowners Insurance premiums!) for those intending to replicate the 'single overhead speaker' configuration shown here as a way to duplicate that 3-layer speaker arrangement. biggrin.gif



Note that although the installed Auro3D decoder is not identified, the presence of a Top Front Center speaker suggests this might still be an engineering prototype decoder based on the theatrical 11.1 speaker configuration, rather than a pre production consumer home product...?! cool.gif
_

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post #564 of 1315 Old 07-01-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Even though Dolby has penned the Dolby Surround 7.1 moniker for some presentations, the audio on the DCP is straight PCM, nothing Dolby about it.
Just a guess, but maybe Dolby was trying to differentiate their 7.1 configuration (4 surround channels) from the only other 7.1 done in the past (5 screen channels), the latter having been done by Cinerama and SDDS.

Channel pairs for DCI are: left front/right front, centre/LFE, left surround/right surround, HI/VI, left centre/right centre, left back/right back, etc.

So Dolby's 7.1 configuration skips what would be the next two channels in the order and instead uses the two channels after them, which might have been enough for Dolby to feel their configuration deserved a moniker to separate it from (what had been till then) typical 7.1.

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post #565 of 1315 Old 07-01-2013, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

So Dolby's 7.1 configuration skips what would be the next two channels in the order and instead uses the two channels after them, which might have been enough for Dolby to feel their configuration deserved a moniker to separate it from (what had been till then) typical 7.1.
+1

It seems similar in that respect to "Disney Blu-ray" where they offer their own flavor of menus and features, all within the same BD format everyone else uses.

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post #566 of 1315 Old 07-01-2013, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Looking at the new Certified Auro-3D Home Theater demo room at Stassen Hifi's Palazzo AV store in The Netherlands, I foresee a number of "WAF problems" (plus increases in Homeowners Insurance premiums!) for those intending to replicate the 'single overhead speaker' configuration shown here as a way to duplicate that 3-layer speaker arrangement. biggrin.gif
I think the problem is easily avoided by not placing any speakers directly over the listeners' heads. From my experience, that is the last place one wants a speaker. It becomes annoying almost instantly, as the brain does not readily detect that location with certainty, so the reaction is to move one's head to better triangulate/distinguish from other sound sources, and that's distracting for movie watching. A pair of height speakers works better.

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post #567 of 1315 Old 07-01-2013, 11:05 AM
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I need a dedicated HT Room so I can put in 37 Speakers as mentioned in the article :)

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post #568 of 1315 Old 07-01-2013, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View PostLooking at the new Certified Auro-3D Home Theater demo room at Stassen Hifi's Palazzo AV store in The Netherlands, I foresee a number of "WAF problems" (plus increases in Homeowners Insurance premiums!) for those intending to replicate the 'single overhead speaker' configuration shown here as a way to duplicate that 3-layer speaker arrangement. biggrin.gif



Note that although the installed Auro3D decoder is not identified, the presence of a Top Front Center speaker suggests this might still be an engineering prototype decoder based on the theatrical 11.1 speaker configuration, rather than a pre production consumer home product...?! cool.gif
_

I will take one of those please with a 4K projector :)

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post #569 of 1315 Old 07-01-2013, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

It seems similar in that respect to "Disney Blu-ray" where they offer their own flavor of menus and features, all within the same BD format everyone else uses.
Yup, and part of that is marketing/branding, like when "A-3" was changed to "Dolby Digital" for the consumer side. We home theatre enthusiasts sometimes forget the second half of the term 'movie business'.
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I think the problem is easily avoided by not placing any speakers directly over the listeners' heads. From my experience, that is the last place one wants a speaker. It becomes annoying almost instantly, as the brain does not readily detect that location with certainty, so the reaction is to move one's head to better triangulate/distinguish from other sound sources, and that's distracting for movie watching. A pair of height speakers works better.
If there is one speaker location worse than directly behind, it's directly above. We humans tend to make tiny involuntary head movements to constantly re-calibrate our surroundings. So with a speaker directly behind, you'll eventually localize where it is (though too late for some quick sound effects to avoid imaging reversals).

But with a speaker directly overhead, no matter which way you turn your head, the sound will always be equal in both ears, which reflexively makes us think that the sound is directly in front of us (imaging reversal). The solution, as you mentioned, couldn't be simpler: use two speakers, even when reproducing mono content, behind and above.

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post #570 of 1315 Old 07-01-2013, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I think the problem is easily avoided by not placing any speakers directly over the listeners' heads. From my experience, that is the last place one wants a speaker. It becomes annoying almost instantly, as the brain does not readily detect that location with certainty, so the reaction is to move one's head to better triangulate/distinguish from other sound sources, and that's distracting for movie watching. A pair of height speakers works better.
If there is one speaker location worse than directly behind, it's directly above. We humans tend to make tiny involuntary head movements to constantly re-calibrate our surroundings. So with a speaker directly behind, you'll eventually localize where it is (though too late for some quick sound effects to avoid imaging reversals).

But with a speaker directly overhead, no matter which way you turn your head, the sound will always be equal in both ears, which reflexively makes us think that the sound is directly in front of us (imaging reversal). The solution, as you mentioned, couldn't be simpler: use two speakers, even when reproducing mono content, behind and above.

I quite agree, and I would have opted for a spaced array of 2, 3, or 4 "common mono signal" speakers (their locations somewhat influenced by the earlier SACD and DVD-A experimental 3D audio configurations) even if my ceilings were not too low for a solo VOG speaker setup. For a 'similar situation' the Illusonic Immersive Audio Processor user manual recommends:

"For large rooms, or rooms with little height, it may be difficult to position the top loudspeaker such that its sound reaches the listening area evenly. An array of two or four top loudspeakers, fed with the same signal, may be used in this case."

All of which makes me wonder why the Stassen Hifi Auro-3D demo room (which appears to have been configured with help from Auro Technologies) was installed that way . . . and whether there might be some problem related to the currently available Auro-3D decoder when using multiple overhead speakers in a small|home theater environment...?! cool.gif
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