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post #31 of 1291 Old 04-23-2012, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Ivan's favourite AMC theatre in Burbank, which includes one of those ETX auditoriums, has a bunch of extra (height?) speakers installed. According to the Mix magazine article that Marc linked to, Dolby has been working/talking with AMC about this since 2007. Maybe some test installations already exist.

Same with the one here

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #32 of 1291 Old 04-23-2012, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Time to watch as dolby and dts duke it out!

You know what that means: another edition of 'The Haunting'.

Sanjay
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post #33 of 1291 Old 04-23-2012, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Same with the one here

Dolby's So Cal office is in Burbank....
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post #34 of 1291 Old 04-23-2012, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

You know what that means: another edition of 'The Haunting'.

...........

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #35 of 1291 Old 04-23-2012, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post


Dolby's So Cal office is in Burbank....

That brick building off the hwy??

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #36 of 1291 Old 04-23-2012, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Not exciting at all...

Time to watch as dolby and dts duke it out!

Sorry to disappoint, but that war will not likely repeat. DTS is no longer in the cinema hardware business, having sold it to Datasat.

What SRS is promoting is a common content creation format called MDA (multi-dimensional audio) which is an open standard format for creating object-based audio and associated metadata. This would be used at the productions stage level, and the finished MDA mix could then be encoded for any desired playback hardware, be it Atmos, Auro3D, IOSONO, IMM, or even NHK 22.2.

The main reason each of these companies currently has their own proprietary production tool is because there is no universal standard yet implemented in the DAWs and DFCs used in film production. That standard could be MDA as it is not associated with any company's cinema processor platform. Since it is unlikely that the film studios will be willing to mix their movies multiple times, the need for a universal production system is obvious.
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post #37 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 12:36 AM
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If-and-when a theater chain upgrades a particular venue with the additional amps+speakers required to deliver Atmos playback, they will no doubt expect added value in the form of 'improved' audio performance even when not playing back a "mixed for Atmos" soundtrack--of which presumably there will be 'very few' initially! This suggests Dolby will need to provide on-the-fly 'upmix' post processing functionality for use with some|most|all of the "NOT mixed for Atmos" movie soundtracks that will also show|playback through the same speaker configuration in the theater. It might be relatively straightforward to implement some "home version" of that 'upmix' post processing technology as a 'second generation version of DPLIIz' in Home Theater, even if there is 'no easy way' to bring discrete Atmos soundtracks to HT...?!

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post #38 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by GXMnow View Post

Now that the system has been announced to the world, I can give a few details.

The Dolby Atmos paper mentions room equalization (band based?) and (surround) bass management. Can you provide more detailed info?

Markus

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post #39 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Exactly right. And delivering object-based audio means more information comes to the playback system, thus allowing improved rendering even with existing speaker configurations.

Two potential problems: "beds" and monitoring in real spaces like a dubbing stage. But I guess that's the price we have to pay for backwards compatibility with existing (re-)production techniques.

By the way, do you have more detailed info on the format of Dolby Atmos audio files? Dolby states there are up to 128 simultaneous and lossless audio streams.

Markus

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post #40 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Read between the lines: >>Launching in the cinema, Dolby Atmos...<<

The first stumbling block to Home Theater discrete 3D audio would seem to be the almost complete absence of movies mixed with 3D audio . . . and with few theaters equipped for 3D audio playback until recently, there has been little incentive for studios to mix audio in 3D. Hopefully the studios will quickly find a way to mix soundtracks 'once' for playback in both Auro-3D and Dolby Atmos capable theaters--even if doing so does not initially make best|full use of either sound system. The more theaters that can play 3D soundtracks of all systems, the sooner the studios will exploit the 3D audio format . . . and we might expect to see (hear!) the start of discrete 3D audio for Home Theater!

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post #41 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

If-and-when a theater chain upgrades a particular venue with the additional amps+speakers required to deliver Atmos playback, they will no doubt expect added value in the form of 'improved' audio performance even when not playing back a "mixed for Atmos" soundtrack--of which presumably there will be 'very few' initially! This suggests Dolby will need to provide on-the-fly 'upmix' post processing functionality for use with some|most|all of the "NOT mixed for Atmos" movie soundtracks that will also show|playback through the same speaker configuration in the theater.

If you read the white papers, one of the things mentioned in a very brief way, is how Dolby has been looking at changes in how we have thought about our standards and re-evaluating them.

SMPTE has convened a working group that is also looking to redefine cinema playback systems, standards and, etc...

I suspect we will see more fundamental changes in the quality of even standard 5.1 cinema systems...

I don't think Dolby wants to get into the business of real time up mixing in the cinemas.... obviously any Atmos theater will be able to play back 5.1 and 7.1 films as intended..

As I alluded to earlier, they are implementing a business model that should see a fairly rapid (in respect to other technology upgrades before it) rate of installations..

There has recently been a bit of chatter among my colleagues about AMC's ETX system up mix and it has started the discussion about what is and isn't acceptable to content makers in regards to their original delivered soundtracks.

In the end, I wholeheartedly agree that we should see an improvement in the overall quality of sound in the cinemas.
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post #42 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

That brick building off the hwy??

Yes...
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post #43 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Sorry to disappoint, but that war will not likely repeat. DTS is no longer in the cinema hardware business, having sold it to Datasat.

Purely speculation on my part, but I think the merger, on the surface, gives DTS access to a couple of areas that they haven't cracked which could be very lucrative, and with which SRS has been wildly successful.

Broadcast and display sound systems (i.e. tv speaker systems.).
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post #44 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 06:47 AM
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You know what that means: another edition of 'The Haunting'.

Fifth Element?
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post #45 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post


If you read the white papers, one of the things mentioned in a very brief way, is how Dolby has been looking at changes in how we have thought about our standards and re-evaluating them.

SMPTE has convened a working group that is also looking to redefine cinema playback systems, standards and, etc...

I suspect we will see more fundamental changes in the quality of even standard 5.1 cinema systems...

I don't think Dolby wants to get into the business of real time up mixing in the cinemas.... obviously any Atmos theater will be able to play back 5.1 and 7.1 films as intended..

As I alluded to earlier, they are implementing a business model that should see a fairly rapid (in respect to other technology upgrades before it) rate of installations..

There has recently been a bit of chatter among my colleagues about AMC's ETX system up mix and it has started the discussion about what is and isn't acceptable to content makers in regards to their original delivered soundtracks.

In the end, I wholeheartedly agree that we should see an improvement in the overall quality of sound in the cinemas.

How do you feel about the etx system?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #46 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

dtsrs

No, that just won't fly. It needs to be much longer. And where is the hyphen, colon, or forward slash?



AJ
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post #47 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 11:49 AM
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The eq system is very interesting. All 64 feeds have Dolby LAKE processing for the filtering. The room config file with the type and location of each speaker needs to be entered first, then the tuning can begin. Here is a very simplified explanation of the procedure. We setup an array of mics in the room and they are all digitized in real time along with the source test signal. Each channel is played and sampled then the system calculates the correction filters. Then we can play with the applied eq and check the results. Eq can be manually adjusted as well using tools that can act like a parametric, graphic, or Mesa eq. Filters are never addedor stacked, you just are altering the settings of the lake filter.

As far as I know there is no plan to artificially up mix 5.1 or 7.1 tracks. But there will still be a good benefit. With only a single driver on each amp channel the speaker control will be improved vs the series/parallel arrays of past. Each speaker independently balanced and equalized should have better more even sound. The arrays will be the ideal located speakers in the room. True full frequency range will be available with less distortio due the the use of individual amps and bass managed surround and rear sub woofers.
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post #48 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GXMnow View Post

The eq system is very interesting. All 64 feeds have Dolby LAKE processing for the filtering. The room config file with the type and location of each speaker needs to be entered first, then the tuning can begin. Here is a very simplified explanation of the procedure. We setup an array of mics in the room and they are all digitized in real time along with the source test signal. Each channel is played and sampled then the system calculates the correction filters. Then we can play with the applied eq and check the results. Eq can be manually adjusted as well using tools that can act like a parametric, graphic, or Mesa eq. Filters are never addedor stacked, you just are altering the settings of the lake filter.

As far as I know there is no plan to artificially up mix 5.1 or 7.1 tracks. But there will still be a good benefit. With only a single driver on each amp channel the speaker control will be improved vs the series/parallel arrays of past. Each speaker independently balanced and equalized should have better more even sound. The arrays will be the ideal located speakers in the room. True full frequency range will be available with less distortio due the the use of individual amps and bass managed surround and rear sub woofers.

Thanks GXMnow.

Are the fronts now bass managed too? How are the mics set up for room EQ (location and number)?

Markus

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post #49 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

The first stumbling block to Home Theater discrete 3D audio would seem to be the almost complete absence of movies mixed with 3D audio . . . and with few theaters equipped for 3D audio playback until recently, there has been little incentive for studios to mix audio in 3D. Hopefully the studios will quickly find a way to mix soundtracks 'once' for playback in both Auro-3D and Dolby Atmos capable theaters--even if doing so does not initially make best|full use of either sound system. The more theaters that can play 3D soundtracks of all systems, the sooner the studios will exploit the 3D audio format . . . and we might expect to see (hear!) the start of discrete 3D audio for Home Theater!

Quite right. The chicken and egg problem can be a real stumbling block. In this case, movie mixing as been evolving to being more and more "in the box" (using a DAW) increasing flexibility and efficiency, and narrowing the gap to object-based audio. A Pro Tools session is, in essence, an object based mix. The only problem to date is that it stayed inside the box. Exporting objects and metadata is the new feature, and that's more a matter of plumbing rather than a paradigm shift in workflow. Of course the addition of speakers and 3D adds new challenges for our friend FilmMixer , but the artistic rewards will help offset the effort.
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post #50 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 02:00 PM
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Sorry I can't figure out how to quote o. My iPhone.

All of the tests I have info on have not used screen channel bass management. It simply is not needed with 4 x 15 inch woofers and 1200+ watts feeding them on each screen channel. That said, the config file will allow the installer to make any full range channel bass manage at any frequency into one of up to 3 sub woofer outputs. Most see them being assigned as front LFE sub , left back sub , right back sub.

The mic number and placement is not defined and multiple passes can be used to get more measured positions we have done as many as 16 locations in the main seating area, sampling 6 at a time. The "sweet spot" mic stays in the ref position. 2/3 back just off center. The other 5 moved and were sampled 2 more times.

As you might imagine, manually Eq'ing 50 channels would take a fair bit of time. Even with this semi auto setup it is taking a out 2 hours to do a full tune. I am sure we Wil cut that a bit as we refine the process though. The software is still maturing as well.

I am still waiting to hear all the feed back from Vegas.
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post #51 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GXMnow View Post

...the config file will allow the installer to make any full range channel bass manage at any frequency into one of up to 3 sub woofer outputs.

As you might imagine, manually Eq'ing 50 channels would take a fair bit of time. Even with this semi auto setup it is taking a out 2 hours to do a full tune.

So is bass management and automated room correction ("semi auto setup") that we consumers take for granted on our home systems finally coming to commercial cinema?

Sanjay
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post #52 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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That said, the config file will allow the installer to make any full range channel bass manage

Not bad. Only 17 years after I requested it!
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post #53 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I don't think Dolby wants to get into the business of real time up mixing in the cinemas.... obviously any Atmos theater will be able to play back 5.1 and 7.1 films as intended.

This article in FilmJournal (link), an interview with several 'Dolby Dudes', seems to support that position:
Quote:


While he believes that Dolby “would definitely not allow upmixing of a feature that was not created in Dolby Atmos because that would have the format do something that the content creator did not want,” Bowling does not rule out the possibility of creating deliverables for other multi-channel systems entering the market, such as Auro-3D and imm sound. Again, that would entirely depend on the filmmakers, he insists. “It is important that we leave that decision for the content creator. Even though our processor can adapt itself to different room shapes and sizes, we’re not making the decision how that happens. But upmixing for alternative content, for instance, is certainly something that we are looking at as a potential feature that would go into the processor.”


We can get some idea about rollout timing from this quote:
Quote:


Realistic expectations for 2012 remain under 100 systems, “but the ultimate goal is to get 500 or 1,000 screens by summer 2013.”


And just to remind us that there is a big difference between "effectively in-place" hardware+software and "not-quite-there-ware" . . . my favorite quote:
Quote:


Between now and when the processor actually arrives, “some of the features could change."


Really?

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post #54 of 1291 Old 04-24-2012, 05:47 PM
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I have heard the "Brave" will be the first feature and would be released in a test type of roll out.
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I have heard the "Brave" will be the first feature and would be released in a test type of roll out.

Perhaps to be followed in wide release by (some movie like) Catching Fire (November 2013?) if Brave demonstrates that the Dolby Atmos format delivers higher tween seat numbers than at theaters with conventional 5.1|7.1 soundtracks...?!

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post #56 of 1291 Old 04-25-2012, 02:50 AM
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Not bad. Only 17 years after I requested it!

Certainly would be an improvement because it could force bass management into the content creation process. This could result in better translation to different types of rooms.

Markus

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post #57 of 1291 Old 04-25-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I have heard the "Brave" will be the first feature and would be released in a test type of roll out.

Perhaps to be followed in wide release by (some movie like) Catching Fire (November 2013?) if Brave demonstrates that the Dolby Atmos format delivers higher tween seat numbers than at theaters with conventional 5.1|7.1 soundtracks...?!

And now reported|confirmed by the BBC (link):
Quote:


Pixar's Brave to debut new Dolby Atmos sound system
Cinema sound system provider Dolby has announced that its new audio format will receive its premiere in June with the release of Pixar's movie Brave.
The Disney-owned animation studio's film will use the format in a limited number of "premium" cinemas in the US.


[I wonder if premium cinemas will translate into premium priced seats...? ]

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post #58 of 1291 Old 04-25-2012, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Ok, a gentle perusal of the press release and white paper seems to indicate this was developed for commercial cinemas and auditoriums, no? Not that I'm uninterested, but is there a home app?

From an April 24, 2012, Digital Trends article Dolby Atmos surround sound technology could transform video games (link):
Quote:


Senior technical marketing manager at Dolby Laboratories Stuart Bowling immediately used horror, a genre whose effectiveness is defined by sound, as an example of how Atmos will improve the theatrical experience. “You can imagine watching a scary movie, and it’s a scene when someone is hiding in a basement and there are footsteps on the floorboards above. The Atmos system will actually play that audio from above people in the theater,” said Bowling. A demonstration of the technology included what reporter Nick Bolton described as thunderstorm sounds so realistic he thought he’d need an umbrella.

Intriguing to say the least.
More intriguing of course is Dolby’s claim that the ultimate goal is to move Dolby Atmos into home theaters with large-screen televisions. This of course is where Atmos’ impact on video games will be greatest.


Quote:


Digital Trends reached out to Dolby Laboratories to further discuss Dolby Atmos, and while a representative of the company didn’t confirm a timeline for when Atmos will hit home, they did confirm Dolby’s commitment to leaving theaters. “Delivering the most realistic and immersive consumer experiences is central to Dolby’s vision for entertainment. As the first films with Dolby Atmos arrive in the cinema, we expect people will want to bring the experience home. Dolby Atmos is revolutionary and it may take time to bring this experience to game devices. Our research team is already exploring how to do this.”


[Substantial penetration of the home video game market might provide for retail availability of "acceptably priced" decoders|amps|speakers suitable for HT 3D audio . . . but might not in itself persuade studios to remix 3D audio for home movie sales (in some as yet undefined deliverable format)...?! ]

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post #59 of 1291 Old 04-25-2012, 11:53 AM
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One of the biggest hurdles of any new format like this is getting the content creators on board to use it. No content = no market.

Dolby has been working with many of the people who make the content in Hollywood for quite a while, even before they started creating ATMOS. The tools used to create the sound location information is just an enhancement to the 5.1 panner that has been used for years. So many mixers have a good feel for it from the start. The difference is the console is no longer doing the panning and mixing of the audio. Instead, the source track is recorded along with the panner data. That gets sent on to the package and on to the cinema processor in the theatre. So now the panner data tells the processor where the sound should be at any moment and renders the sound out to the correct speaker in the room.

Thanks to the mixing setup, it does look like content will come.
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post #60 of 1291 Old 04-25-2012, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GXMnow View Post

In a small room, like a home theatre size, I could see a very convincing image with just 6 surround wall speakers and 4 on the ceiling along with the normal 3.1 up front.

Yes after surround sound, Room EQ and lossless there is not much left to sell besides more speakers.
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