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post #721 of 1276 Old 11-29-2013, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


Trinnov only captures sound, as you well stated, to gain >>knowledge of the discrete physical placement of all the speakers in the room.<< It is not a sound format like Atmos, Ambisonics, etc. FOHMM is referring to the mics used to record sound in Ambisonics format.
For cinemas, thus far all the formats use manual entry. That could change. It's a secondary function of the sound system -- calibration.

 

Roger, your mention regarding the Trinnov cal mic- quite correct, in that it's use is to identify characteristics of loudspeakers in rooms, including their placement within 2 degrees accuracy. it is presently used to advantage in commercial cinemas utilizing 

Trinnov's Ovation Commercial Cinema Processor.  BTW, Trinnov did make a surround microphone...

 

Now little known, Trinnov's first commercial product was the SRP- Surround Recording Platform,a system is based on an eight capsule  mic array and processor to derive a ITU 5 channel sound field with up to 5th order directivity across the front. System based on same mathematical principals used in the Trinnov Optimizer to rebuild acoustic fields.   More here: http://www.trinnov.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/SRP_EN_A4_Nov2007.pdf  & paper  http://www.trinnov.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/Trinnov-hsr-5.0-en.pdf

 

This discussion and your comment reminds me of Trinnov's first product- and my early work in 3D audio.  3D has been with us for a long time- in planetariums, so this is where my interest was drawn to for 3D.  Planetariums have had excellent 3D mixes for years.  When I looked into it, I found that the 3D mixes are done individually in the planetarium (mix console, mixer, etc on site). While inefficient- it was necessary as each planetarium has unique speaker layouts, and costs are recovered as shows run for very long periods of time. I saw an opportunity to experiment with Trinnov's acoustic filed technologies, which like Atmos, get away from channel based reproduction.   

 

My early work with both SRP and Optimizer included organizing a study with University of Colorado (Denver- Graduate Audio Program) and Denver Gates Planetarium in 2006.  Sound-field samples were captured with the SRP, then acoustically projected in various ways into the Planetarium's 16 channel dome using the Trinnov Optimizer.  I repeated this with the folks at Oakland's Chabot Space & Science Center Planetarium.  At Gates, we held an AES meeting to share the technological achievement and to use the audience of AES members to gather data on how consistent the spacial resolution was throughout the planetarium.  We knew it would only be a matter of time and increased processing power

before we'd have 3D in cinemas.

 

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post #722 of 1276 Old 11-29-2013, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Except that the bed will be missing all of the object audio, so it's not a usable track for authoring to answer the OP question.
Thanks for the info, I didn't think that it would be that easy, but you never know till you ask.
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post #723 of 1276 Old 11-29-2013, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Except that the bed will be missing all of the object audio, so it's not a usable track for authoring to answer the OP question.
There is little probability that consumer "object audio" content will be the same structure or magnitude as the files delivered to D-Cinema. In order to provide a compatible track for, say, some future BD format release, there will need to be a 5.1 or 7.1 complete mix. The "extras" (i.e. objects and other bed channels) will be delivered as extensions, and using the same techniques currently used for lossless codec extensions, the original mix will be reconstituted in the "object aware" surround processor, to whatever degree the available speakers permit.

By "magnitude" I mean the number of simultaneous channels/objects. There may be cases where consumer formats must limit the number in order to fit bitrate limits on the delivery medium.

But generally speaking, no need to fret. Whatever the source format -- beds, objects, channels -- it can be delivered.
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post #724 of 1276 Old 11-29-2013, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Now little known, Trinnov's first commercial product was the SRP- Surround Recording Platform,a system is based on an eight capsule  mic array and processor to derive a ITU 5 channel sound field with up to 5th order directivity across the front. System based on same mathematical principals used in the Trinnov Optimizer to rebuild acoustic fields.   More here: http://www.trinnov.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/SRP_EN_A4_Nov2007.pdf  & paper  http://www.trinnov.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/Trinnov-hsr-5.0-en.pdf
Hi Curt,

Thanks for those papers. Just glancing at the 5.0 HSR paper, it looks a lot like the HOA proposal Technicolor and others are backing of late.
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post #725 of 1276 Old 11-29-2013, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


Hi Curt,

Thanks for those papers. Just glancing at the 5.0 HSR paper, it looks a lot like the HOA proposal Technicolor and others are backing of late.

Yes, there are similarities between  HOA (Higher Order Ambisonics),  Fourier-Bessel (Trinnov), and WFS (Wave Field Synthesis- Iosono) as well. The three form the most well known mathematical approaches for 3D.  I am familiar with Technicolor's work, as I consulted on the design, tuning and ongoing progress of their HOA room.  They have some work ahead of them to refine their tools.   WFS is very compelling, but quite complicated to implement.  We may see AURO or similar win the commercial cinema by way of it's simplicity.  So far, having watched movies in all the formats,  I find Atmos to be the most involving.

 

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post #726 of 1276 Old 12-03-2013, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View PostYes, there are similarities between  HOA (Higher Order Ambisonics),  Fourier-Bessel (Trinnov), and WFS (Wave Field Synthesis- Iosono) as well. The three form the most well known mathematical approaches for 3D.  I am familiar with Technicolor's work, as I consulted on the design, tuning and ongoing progress of their HOA room.  They have some work ahead of them to refine their tools.   WFS is very compelling, but quite complicated to implement.  We may see AURO or similar win the commercial cinema by way of it's simplicity.  So far, having watched movies in all the formats,  I find Atmos to be the most involving.  Cheers,

Cool let's bring it on in AV Receivers 2014 maybe?

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post #727 of 1276 Old 12-05-2013, 04:23 AM
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Atmos wont port to home cinema anytime soon, and everything else surround Atmos has rendered as mental masturbation; that is why my company is morphing more into commercial DCI (Boutique Hotel Screening rooms) side of things. Atmos is the biggest challenge for the HomeImax ( my old AVS handle until I received a cease and decease letter in 2000) program to succeed. we have designs for 55 channel systems they start at 5 and go up to 7. Also the horn systems are completely inappropriate and unnecessarily fatiguing, the quested amps are no Dagostinos but they are very organic sounding nonetheless, I wonder what Homeimax will use3. Tony Grimani (in the capacity of being the implementator of the first HomeImax in LA) was at the Atmos Gravity premiere but I do not see Imax retooling to Atmos, therefor it is looking like a stillborn.

For Home Cinema I am returning to the customized DCI program having delved into simulation projectors at Albiorix (double flash 3d at 1080p60), If you want to have Atmos at home there soon will be a way. But you have to go 100% DCI.

For HOMEIMAX the situation is No Quested, No Atmos = Dead in the Water (surround sound wise). End of conversation non negotiable.cool.gif
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post #728 of 1276 Old 12-09-2013, 11:39 AM
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Has anyone here seen/heard Catching Fire or Frozen in Atmos? And/or, has anyone been to the Atmos theater at AMC Barrywoods in Kansas City? I will be within a half hour's drive of this theater this week and my schedule would accommodate watching one of these movies. It would be my first time with Atmos -- which one should I do?! How does this theater sound? Thanks.

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post #729 of 1276 Old 12-09-2013, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkeeler10 View Post

Has anyone here seen/heard Catching Fire or Frozen in Atmos? And/or, has anyone been to the Atmos theater at AMC Barrywoods in Kansas City? I will be within a half hour's drive of this theater this week and my schedule would accommodate watching one of these movies. It would be my first time with Atmos -- which one should I do?! How does this theater sound? Thanks.

I've seen Catching Fire in ATMOS and thought some scenes were nice. Haven't seen it in a non atmos theater yet to compare though

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #730 of 1276 Old 12-11-2013, 06:47 AM
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Okay I went and watched Catching Fire at the AMC Barrywoods in Kansas City last night. I counted 46 speakers (not including whatever was behind the screen), including two rows of overhead speakers. There were also a couple of really large (!) subwoofers hanging from the ceiling near the back of the theater.

It was impressive. Actually, most of the time it was subtle or not apparent, but there were many times that the discrete nature of the array of side surrounds was obvious. The overhead speakers were not often obvious, but there were a couple of scenes that they were, especially the jabberjay scene . . .

As others have said, the short Atmos demo clip before the movie started showed off the capabilities of discrete sound placement quite well. And, while this is not Atmos related per se, the bass in this theater was by far the best I have ever heard in a commercial theater. It was powerful and very deep when needed (even floor- and seat-shaking surprisingly), but didn't beat you over the head all the time.

Anyway, worth the time I took to go see and hear it.

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post #731 of 1276 Old 12-16-2013, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkeeler10 View Post

Okay I went and watched Catching Fire at the AMC Barrywoods in Kansas City last night. I counted 46 speakers (not including whatever was behind the screen), including two rows of overhead speakers. There were also a couple of really large (!) subwoofers hanging from the ceiling near the back of the theater.

It was impressive. Actually, most of the time it was subtle or not apparent, but there were many times that the discrete nature of the array of side surrounds was obvious. The overhead speakers were not often obvious, but there were a couple of scenes that they were, especially the jabberjay scene . . .

As others have said, the short Atmos demo clip before the movie started showed off the capabilities of discrete sound placement quite well. And, while this is not Atmos related per se, the bass in this theater was by far the best I have ever heard in a commercial theater. It was powerful and very deep when needed (even floor- and seat-shaking surprisingly), but didn't beat you over the head all the time.

Anyway, worth the time I took to go see and hear it.

Nice man I've been to the Barrywoods on a few occasions with my wife including the unveiling of Atmos in that theater on the opening weekend for Brave when a Dolby rep was there. He came into the theater and talked a little about Atmos and answered questions afterwards. It was great.

I was impressed with Atmos at that theater. Very actually. As you said that ETX room has some incredible bass!! Some of the best I've heard in a commercial theater. Glad you liked it too.

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post #732 of 1276 Old 12-31-2013, 03:11 PM
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We are working on an ATMOS private theater that should be complete in Q2. I am anxious to finally hear the system in person.
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post #733 of 1276 Old 12-31-2013, 03:33 PM
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We are working on an ATMOS private theater that should be complete in Q2. I am anxious to finally hear the system in person.

May I ask what the final speaker configuration is for the residential version? And I assume you are using a commercial processor from Dolby themselves? Interested in hearing a few more details. Thanks!
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post #734 of 1276 Old 01-03-2014, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cmont View PostWe are working on an ATMOS private theater that should be complete in Q2. I am anxious to finally hear the system in person.

Cool! What's the cost or should I even ask :)

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Cool! What's the cost or should I even ask smile.gif

Only Atmos procssor avaiable is the DCI Dolby CP-850 that I know of. Datasat's RS20I has Auro 3D so thats an option to or just go Trinnov.

Im all about Atmos though so that private theater is gunna be the cats pajamas.

I too would love to know the speaker layout? I.E. 3 or 5 speaker stage, use of bass enclosures for surround bass managment, and number of surronds. Also brand and model would be really cool.

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post #736 of 1276 Old 01-07-2014, 07:49 AM
 
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Didn't see a separate DTS-UHD thread in my (admittedly) brief search. But, looks like DTS is getting ready for a consumer release of their Atmos equivalent, DTS-UHD.

http://www.enhancedonlinenews.com/portal/site/eon/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20140107005809&newsLang=en&permalinkExtra=



BTW, we heard Gravity in Atmos and that was impressive.
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post #737 of 1276 Old 01-07-2014, 08:53 AM
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Cool, sounds like the hardware might be able to do this sooner than I had thought. The questions that need to be answered though: 1. Will this decode Atmos (probably not); 2. If not, when will DTS make object-oriented encoding available to sound engineers; 3. When will consumer media so encoded (on blu-ray or otherwise) be available to the consumer?

This could be another case (like UHD video) where the hardware is ready to roll but there's no content (other than Sony-proprietary!)

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post #738 of 1276 Old 01-07-2014, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Didn't see a separate DTS-UHD thread in my (admittedly) brief search. But, looks like DTS is getting ready for a consumer release of their Atmos equivalent, DTS-UHD.

http://www.enhancedonlinenews.com/portal/site/eon/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20140107005809&newsLang=en&permalinkExtra=



BTW, we heard Gravity in Atmos and that was impressive.

👍
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post #739 of 1276 Old 01-08-2014, 11:17 AM
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It seems that DCI is trying force dolby to replace atmos with a SMPTE standardized format in commercial cinemas:
http://dcimovies.com/specification/DCI_Object-Based_Audio_Addendum_2013-0909.pdf
" Though object-based audio
rendering may be carried out differently by individual systems, it is required that said audio in
the DCP be interoperable within all DCSS compliant architectures that support object-based
audio"
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post #740 of 1276 Old 01-08-2014, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Fransberg View Post

It seems that DCI is trying force dolby to replace atmos with a SMPTE standardized format in commercial cinemas:
http://dcimovies.com/specification/DCI_Object-Based_Audio_Addendum_2013-0909.pdf
" Though object-based audio rendering may be carried out differently by individual systems, it is required that said audio in the DCP be interoperable within all DCSS compliant architectures that support object-based audio"
I do not read it that way. All it requires is interoperability.
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post #741 of 1276 Old 01-08-2014, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I do not read it that way. All it requires is interoperability.

Further down in the document it says that the format has to be a common smpte standardized format and atmos is not.
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post #742 of 1276 Old 01-08-2014, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Fransberg View Post

Further down in the document it says that the format has to be a common smpte standardized format and atmos is not.
Does that mean it could not become one? The standard has yet to be written.
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post #743 of 1276 Old 01-08-2014, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Does that mean it could not become one? The standard has yet to be written.

Sure if they would let other manufacturers use it for free but my guess is that they will keep their patents so that they can use them for home theater products. Datasat has already offered to give away their DTS MDA format so that there could be an open standard.
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post #744 of 1276 Old 01-08-2014, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Sure if they would let other manufacturers use it for free but my guess is that they will keep their patents so that they can use them for home theater products.
Sure, but that would be Dolby's choice, not DCI's.
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Datasat has already offered to give away their DTS MDA format so that there could be an open standard.
Datasat does not own the DTS MDA format, AFAIK. DTS owns it.
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post #745 of 1276 Old 01-08-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Datasat does not own the DTS MDA format, AFAIK. DTS owns it.

I don't know who owns it. It could also be that I remember incorrectly and it was dts who offered DTS MDA, I have been confusing them ever since dts cinema division was rebranded to datasat.
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post #746 of 1276 Old 01-09-2014, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

...looks like DTS is getting ready for a consumer release of their Atmos equivalent, DTS-UHD.

http://www.enhancedonlinenews.com/portal/site/eon/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20140107005809&newsLang=en&permalinkExtra=

Nice, maybe we'll get this at home sooner than I thought, like 1 or 2 years instead of 3 or 4.
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Datasat does not own the DTS MDA format, AFAIK. DTS owns it.

They're the same company now

http://www.datasatdigital.com/cinema/info-center/news/2012/dts-becomes-datasat.php

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post #747 of 1276 Old 01-09-2014, 09:53 PM
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Nice, maybe we'll get this at home sooner than I thought, like 1 or 2 years instead of 3 or 4.
They're the same company now

http://www.datasatdigital.com/cinema/info-center/news/2012/dts-becomes-datasat.php

Datasat bought the DTS digital cinema division which was part of DTS. DTS is still DTS biggrin.gif

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #748 of 1276 Old 01-09-2014, 10:15 PM
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Ah, thanks for straightening me out.

I should've known I couldn't know more about this than Roger smile.gif

Noah
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post #749 of 1276 Old 01-11-2014, 01:28 AM
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DTS is still DTS biggrin.gif

Not really in the commercial cinema world, there DTS is now datasat. They sell and service the same products just under a different name.
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post #750 of 1276 Old 01-11-2014, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Fransberg View Post

Not really in the commercial cinema world, there DTS is now datasat. They sell and service the same products just under a different name.

DataSat bought out DTS's DC division, that doesn't mean DTS UHD is Datasats stuff

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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