Dolby Atmos Theatre System - Page 38 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-23-2014, 03:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ellisr63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Northern California, In the HT
Posts: 2,543
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 397 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Dolby Atmos' white paper spells out the requirements. They recommend surrounds that go down to about 40 Hz as ideal for everything but the front screen speakers.
That means I will have to have woofers too then.

Krell Showcase 7.1, (3) JBL 2360As/EV DHA-1s, (3) 1/4 Pie bass bins, (3) MiniDSP 2x4s, (4) Klipsch HIPs,  PS3, XBox 360, (3) Intel NUCs, Blue Jeans 7.1 Cables, Redmere HDMI cables, Monster HTPS7000, 2 DTS-10 subs, Panasonic AE8000, SeymourAV 180 (195" diagonal) scope screen, Darbee Darcet, (1) Yamaha P7000s, (4) Yamaha P2500s, & (2) Yamaha P2075 amps, and a Oppo 103.
The Ellis Family Go Big or go Home HT
ellisr63 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-23-2014, 03:53 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Dan Hitchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 10,559
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1936 Post(s)
Liked: 984
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
That means I will have to have woofers too then.
Well, the decoders will have surround subwoofer outputs if you have smaller speakers.
ellisr63 likes this.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
Dan Hitchman is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 04:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ellisr63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Northern California, In the HT
Posts: 2,543
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 397 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Well, the decoders will have surround subwoofer outputs if you have smaller speakers.
My problem will be that I will need lighter speakers than my Klipsch Heresy HIPs for the heights as I don't know about the ceiling supporting them with clips, and double drywall. If I can put them in my columns and aim them up I will be fine but then it comes down to having the pinpoint dispersion in a package that is no bigger than my Heresy speakers. The only other option I can think of would be to make a new pair of speakers and use the Heresy drivers in it and add drivers for the heights. Looking at the images for the speaker example I can't image how small the height channel drivers must be... Makes me think they might be using full range drivers like a Bose 901 with a very narrow dispersion.

Krell Showcase 7.1, (3) JBL 2360As/EV DHA-1s, (3) 1/4 Pie bass bins, (3) MiniDSP 2x4s, (4) Klipsch HIPs,  PS3, XBox 360, (3) Intel NUCs, Blue Jeans 7.1 Cables, Redmere HDMI cables, Monster HTPS7000, 2 DTS-10 subs, Panasonic AE8000, SeymourAV 180 (195" diagonal) scope screen, Darbee Darcet, (1) Yamaha P7000s, (4) Yamaha P2500s, & (2) Yamaha P2075 amps, and a Oppo 103.
The Ellis Family Go Big or go Home HT
ellisr63 is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 04:11 PM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 7,682
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 960 Post(s)
Liked: 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Dolby Atmos' white paper spells out the requirements. They recommend surrounds that go down to about 40 Hz as ideal for everything but the front screen speakers.
Link please to white paper
wse is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 04:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked: 349
deleted - wrong thread

Last edited by Schwa; 06-23-2014 at 04:53 PM.
Schwa is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 04:55 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Dan Hitchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 10,559
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1936 Post(s)
Liked: 984
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
Link please to white paper
Here you go.

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/A...ifications.pdf

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
Dan Hitchman is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 06:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
OzHDHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Antipodes aka Oz
Posts: 1,627
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 201 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
So how long will it take for the Krell, Anthem, Lexicon, Classe, McIntosh and the likes to bring ATMMOS to their pre/pro?

I am sure that it will be at least three to five years

Might have to buy a Marantz
+1 was just thinking the same. I just blew off years of Integra and more recently Denon, to move to McIntosh processing. Kind of reminds me of that famous Godfather line....Just when I thought I was out...They pull me back in! Starting to think it's a clever ploy by the Japanese makers to keep early adopters like me buying their products (I do realise they have far more $$ to spend on product development and licensing than the high end makers of course).
Deckard97 likes this.

OzHDHT is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ambesolman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,305
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 695 Post(s)
Liked: 606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
YES!!!

Lol, now I can stop being a d**k about it "not existing" anymore.... I guess.

Bring it! I'm ready for Atmos.

Never change who you are scott[emoji6]


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still 👎
ambesolman is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:38 PM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 7,682
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 960 Post(s)
Liked: 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Dolby Atmos' white paper spells out the requirements. They recommend surrounds that go down to about 40 Hz as ideal for everything but the front screen speakers.
So these should be fine then

800D2
- Frequency response 32Hz-28kHz ±3dB on reference axis


http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Downlo...d_brochure.pdf

Last edited by wse; 06-23-2014 at 08:41 PM.
wse is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Dan Hitchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 10,559
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1936 Post(s)
Liked: 984
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
Yes! Hang these from the walls. However, there are some premium commercial theaters that can and do have BIG honkin' surrounds.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
Dan Hitchman is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:44 PM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 7,682
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 960 Post(s)
Liked: 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Yes! Hang these from the walls. However, there are some premium commercial theaters that can and do have BIG honkin' surrounds.
These will work for me



http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speake...2-Diamond.html

Last edited by wse; 06-23-2014 at 09:44 PM.
wse is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 9,519
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1325 Post(s)
Liked: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
I wonder what the specs are for the height drivers... I don't think they will need to be full range... Maybe mids and tweets?
Dolby states:

>>If bass management is used, the surround loudspeakers frequency response (±3 dB) must extend to 90 Hz or lower. The crossover frequency should be set based on the capabilities of the surround loudspeakers, but must not be higher than 100 Hz.<<

The above is in a cinema paper. But as it is fully consistent with existing bass management practice for home systems, it should not pose a problem.

Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
Roger Dressler is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 10:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markus767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,776
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1848 Post(s)
Liked: 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Dolby states:

>>If bass management is used, the surround loudspeakers frequency response (±3 dB) must extend to 90 Hz or lower. The crossover frequency should be set based on the capabilities of the surround loudspeakers, but must not be higher than 100 Hz.<<

The above is in a cinema paper. But as it is fully consistent with existing bass management practice for home systems, it should not pose a problem.
So we're still looking at speakers that need to have >10" woofers to get to reference SPL without compression and distortion.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
markus767 is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 9,519
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1325 Post(s)
Liked: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
So we're still looking at speakers that need to have >10" woofers to get to reference SPL without compression and distortion.
The height speakers do not need to be any larger or capable than the main speakers.

Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
Roger Dressler is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 10:28 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Dan Hitchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 10,559
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1936 Post(s)
Liked: 984
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The height speakers do not need to be any larger or capable than the main speakers.
Roger,

Do you have any idea if Dolby might be encoding their Atmos Blu-ray tracks (the ones they say are coming this fall anyway) with metadata that can control more than the current 7.1+4 layout? In a sense, future-proofing the mixes if hardware and software come out (hopefully in 2nd gen products) that can add more speaker/sub outputs (maybe via an add-on device)?

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
Dan Hitchman is offline  
Old 06-23-2014, 10:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markus767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,776
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1848 Post(s)
Liked: 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The height speakers do not need to be any larger or capable than the main speakers.
The Dolby specs says, "Each loudspeaker and associated amplifier must have a maximum output capability of 99 dB continuous SPL at the reference listening position." and "Each surround array and the associated amplifiers must be able to produce 105 dB continuous SPL at the reference listening position. To meet this requirement for surround arrays with fewer than four loudspeakers, each loudspeaker must be able to produce more than 99 dB continuous SPL."

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
markus767 is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 9,519
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1325 Post(s)
Liked: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Roger,

Do you have any idea if Dolby might be encoding their Atmos Blu-ray tracks (the ones they say are coming this fall anyway) with metadata that can control more than the current 7.1+4 layout? In a sense, future-proofing the mixes if hardware and software come out (hopefully in 2nd gen products) that can add more speaker/sub outputs (maybe via an add-on device)?
It would be fairly pointless to create an object-based audio system that is limited to a set of speakers. I thnk the 7.1+4 constraint is in the current DSPs (and wallets).


Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
The Dolby specs says, "Each loudspeaker and associated amplifier must have a maximum output capability of 99 dB continuous SPL at the reference listening position." and "Each surround array and the associated amplifiers must be able to produce 105 dB continuous SPL at the reference listening position. To meet this requirement for surround arrays with fewer than four loudspeakers, each loudspeaker must be able to produce more than 99 dB continuous SPL."
As I note, those specs are for commercial Atmos cinemas.

Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
Roger Dressler is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 12:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markus767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,776
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1848 Post(s)
Liked: 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
As I note, those specs are for commercial Atmos cinemas.
Sure but reference level applies to home theaters as well, no?

99dB SPL at the listening position requires speakers that are capable of 105dB for a listening distance of 2m and 108,5dB for 3m. I don't know many speakers that would qualify.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
markus767 is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 12:56 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 9,519
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1325 Post(s)
Liked: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Sure but reference level applies to home theaters as well, no?
Not for most of us, I reckon. But there are some who go there. The fact remains -- the height speakers are never asked to carry more freight than the mains. The requirements are just the same as any other bass-managed consumer surround speaker. If one is happy with their satellites, those will serve nicely for heights.
ambesolman likes this.

Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
Roger Dressler is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 01:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markus767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,776
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1848 Post(s)
Liked: 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Not for most of us, I reckon. But there are some who go there. The fact remains -- the height speakers are never asked to carry more freight than the mains. The requirements are just the same as any other bass-managed consumer surround speaker. If one is happy with their satellites, those will serve nicely for heights.
Correct, the heights and surrounds are spec'd at 6dB below the mains. Anyway, there's a difference between sounds-good-to-me™ and uncompressed and undistorted. Anything <10" will most likely don't get you to the latter even with bass management enabled.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
markus767 is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 07:32 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Dan Hitchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 10,559
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1936 Post(s)
Liked: 984
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
It would be fairly pointless to create an object-based audio system that is limited to a set of speakers. I thnk the 7.1+4 constraint is in the current DSPs (and wallets).
Thanks, Roger. I hope you're right.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
Dan Hitchman is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 09:19 AM
Member
 
zorg43x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 55
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Sure but reference level applies to home theaters as well, no?

99dB SPL at the listening position requires speakers that are capable of 105dB for a listening distance of 2m and 108,5dB for 3m. I don't know many speakers that would qualify.
HTH are you calculating this?
zorg43x is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 09:27 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 21,011
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 558 Post(s)
Liked: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What does that have to do with mounting smaller versions of his horn speakers overhead?
Nothing, my mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
99dB SPL at the listening position requires speakers that are capable of 105dB for a listening distance of 2m and 108,5dB for 3m. I don't know many speakers that would qualify.
A 6 1/2" closed-box driver at ~4 mm excursion gives 108 dB/1 m assuming a XO that's down 3 dB at 90 Hz, and much higher SPL if vented.

Noah
noah katz is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 09:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markus767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,776
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1848 Post(s)
Liked: 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
A 6 1/2" closed-box driver at ~4 mm excursion gives 108 dB/1 m assuming a XO that's down 3 dB at 90 Hz, and much higher SPL if vented.
Show me a real driver that does that. Look at PA drivers that are made for high SPL. You'll hardly find one.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
markus767 is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 09:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markus767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,776
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1848 Post(s)
Liked: 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg43x View Post
HTH are you calculating this?
Use any of the calculators you'll find online, e.g. at sengpielaudio.com

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
markus767 is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 09:45 AM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 16,205
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2071 Post(s)
Liked: 1757
Markus, are you using electrostatics powered with tube amps or something?

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz ***FOR SALE***

Plan9Reloaded Co-host
Listen to the Plan9Reloaded Gaming and Technology Podcast (may contain NSFW language)
https://soundcloud.com/plan9reloaded/sets/podcast - direct pod link
http://plan9reloaded.com/site/ - main website
Scott Simonian is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 09:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markus767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,776
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1848 Post(s)
Liked: 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Markus, are you using electrostatics powered with tube amps or something?
No, distorted sound is NOT what I was talking about

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
markus767 is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 10:00 AM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 7,682
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 960 Post(s)
Liked: 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Not for most of us, I reckon. But there are some who go there. The fact remains -- the height speakers are never asked to carry more freight than the mains. The requirements are just the same as any other bass-managed consumer surround speaker. If one is happy with their satellites, those will serve nicely for heights.
Hello Roger,

Tough to hang B&W800D2 on the walls! Do you think these will work B&W805D2?
wse is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 10:20 AM
Member
 
zorg43x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 55
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Common markus, noah katz is aproximately right. I think you are misunderstanding the whole SPL story....

"99dB SPL at the listening position requires speakers that are capable of 105dB for a listening distance of 2m and 108,5dB for 3m."
as you wrote. It's somehow totally miscalculated/misunderstood. Even though, in what distance is then the listener from the speakers?


The 99dB at the listening position, let's say 3m, is capable any decent i.e. 6.5" speaker with average sensitivity, let's say 85dB/W/m, with no more than 50W if I am calculating it correctly...
zorg43x is offline  
Old 06-24-2014, 11:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markus767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,776
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1848 Post(s)
Liked: 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg43x View Post
Common markus, noah katz is aproximately right. I think you are misunderstanding the whole SPL story....

"99dB SPL at the listening position requires speakers that are capable of 105dB for a listening distance of 2m and 108,5dB for 3m."
as you wrote. It's somehow totally miscalculated/misunderstood. Even though, in what distance is then the listener from the speakers?
Err, just like I've said:

Code:
Required SPL   Listening distance   Required SPL @ 1m
99 dB SPL      1 m                   99,0 dB
99 db SPL      2 m                  105,0 dB
99 dB SPL      3 m                  108,5 dB
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg43x View Post
The 99dB at the listening position, let's say 3m, is capable any decent i.e. 6.5" speaker with average sensitivity, let's say 85dB/W/m, with no more than 50W if I am calculating it correctly...
Not without compression and and/or high level of distortion.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
markus767 is offline  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off