Dolby Atmos Theatre System - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post


I fully agree with everything Roger has said but would like to add some comments.

Bass management makes all those uncertainties in mixing and reproducing go away. The only drawback might be deliberate directionality at low frequencies in larger rooms like cinemas vs. unachieveable LF directionality in small rooms like living rooms and home theaters. In my mind a small price to pay.
By the way, using a 1/12 RTA for tuning bass frequencies might be the wrong tool to get really great results.

I know a studio that does remixing for DVD/Blu-ray without any bass management. There's a lot of LF content in the mains that never gets heard by the mixing engineer but will ultimately make it onto the disc. Not a desirable situation in my mind. The simple solution is bass management.

In regards to your last point, I agree.

Every near field set up I've used and remasterig room I've been in is setup for bass management. I don't know why the studio you speak of does that but its a shame.

Since we have a standard in place for theatrical distribuuon translation in larger venues is largely not an issue.

Bass management wouldn't, IMO, improve that by any great degree with the current standard and reporduction systems.

However, and this isn't because of Atmos per se, there is a working SMPTE group re-evaluatig not only the standard but how we measure to acheuve said standard.

It is most assuredly an open discussion.
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post #92 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Pardon my slightly OT follow-up, but you don't think movie theaters will survive?

Jeff

Not directed at me but I'll give my opinion.

These advances in tech might keep audiences interested but won't sustain long term growth of the business.

I'm one of those that would lament the decline of the social movie going experience.

However.... IMO theaters largely survive in the US because teeneagers and young adults need somewhere to depart with their disposable income.

I don't think that will change anytime soon.
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post #93 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Not directed at me but I'll give my opinion.

These advances in tech might keep audiences interested but won't sustain long term growth of the business.

I'm one of those that would lament the decline of the social movie going experience.

However.... IMO theaters largely survive in the US because teeneagers and young adults need somewhere to depart with their disposable income.

I don't think that will change anytime soon.

If that is the case, then I wouldn't be surprised if Atmos "trickles down" into our theaters sooner rather than later. This technology will be wasted in commercial theaters where the customer base is a 2-ch, lossy compression crowd that many times is texting during the movie.

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post #94 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post


If that is the case, then I wouldn't be surprised if Atmos "trickles down" into our theaters sooner rather than later. This technology will be wasted in commercial theaters where the customer base is a 2-ch, lossy compression crowd that many times is texting during the movie.

Jeff

Everyone needs to remener Atmos is a soup to nuts solution for a new way of creating.soundtracks, primarily at this point for commercial cinemas.

Object based workflow will find its ways into the home even if not from a Dolby product.

I truly believe that this will advance the quality and state of the art for cinema sound. Even if it isnt fully appreciated by the majority of film goers, it will add to the experience and as we've seen, they willing to pay for IMAX, ETX, 3D etc.
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post #95 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

However.... IMO theaters largely survive in the US because teeneagers and young adults need somewhere to depart with their disposable income.


I've seen stats on the demographics of ticket sales which confirm your post.

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post #96 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 08:49 AM
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Well, I hope you are right, FM. I still go to the cinema once every 2-3 months and in spite of sitting in what should be the sweet spot, the sound is not that good. And I am going to what is supposed to be a high end theater. They do have a full bar, so maybe theirs is intended for a different "high" ...

BTW, I have always been impressed with IMAX ... right up until I saw a Batman movie where the sound was cranked and distorted. Sad. Now I limit my IMAX to nature films and documentaries.

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post #97 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Projecting for what?

Projecting your motives onto others. New technology is announced that allows mixers to go beyond the limitations of channel-based mixing, allows theatre owners to render soundtracks to as many or as few speakers as they have, allows consumers to experience smoother movement around them and stable imaging above them.

Yet your reflexive reaction, as demonstrated by your very first post in this thread, is to label this as a ploy just to sell more speakers. Since you can't read Dolby's mind, you don't know their motives for inventing this technology. At best, your comments display your motive, the reason why you would have invented this technology (merely to sell more speakers). And you're projecting that onto Dolby.

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post #98 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 09:40 AM
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Gary probably has it on a macro ... I've seen it every time somebody talks about a new technology with ... more speakers.
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post #99 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

If that is the case, then I wouldn't be surprised if Atmos "trickles down" into our theaters sooner rather than later.

I hope so. The article at Digital Trends quoted earlier did say: "More intriguing of course is Dolby's claim that the ultimate goal is to move Dolby Atmos into home theaters with large-screen televisions."

Early adopters have been using the processing in newer receivers (PLIIz, DSX, Neo:X) to do height speakers for a few years already. This will give them content specifically for those speakers.

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post #100 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 09:44 AM
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Last night I lay awake pondering the long term implications of 3D audio in movies...
This morning I realize I was just suffering from a mild case of Dolby AtmosFEAR...!

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post #101 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 09:58 AM
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Groan.

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post #102 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I hope so. The article at Digital Trends quoted earlier did say: "More intriguing of course is Dolby’s claim that the ultimate goal is to move Dolby Atmos into home theaters with large-screen televisions."

Early adopters have been using the processing in newer receivers (PLIIz, DSX, Neo:X) to do height speakers for a few years already. This will give them content specifically for those speakers.

Discrete trumps derived every time.
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post #103 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

And you're projecting that onto Dolby.

Ah not a primary motive but certainly one not lost on the industry in general by any stretch. We shall see eventually when the more mundane AV consumer types are presented with their options. So far they do not appear to even be interested in this thread!

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Gary probably has it on a macro ... I've seen it every time somebody talks about a new technology with ... more speakers.

Yes I know you like to keep track of me. Kind of creepy, really.
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post #104 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Ah not a primary motive but certainly one not lost on the industry in general by any stretch. We shall see eventually when the more mundane AV consumer types are presented with their options. So far they do not appear to even be interested in this thread!



Yes I know you like to keep track of me. Kind of creepy, really.

I assure you that I make no conscious effort to do so. I go places ... and there you are.
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post #105 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah not a primary motive but certainly one not lost on the industry in general by any stretch. We shall see eventually when the more mundane AV consumer types are presented with their options. So far they do not appear to even be interested in this thread!

That's fine. No hurry. There's a lot of work to be done throughout the chain before it will mean anything to typical consumers.
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post #106 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 11:20 AM
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That's fine. No hurry. There's a lot of work to be done throughout the chain before it will mean anything to typical consumers.

Meanwhile Engadget weighs in.
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post #107 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Forgive the resurrecting of the bass management issue, but I just wanted to mention that while GXM is correct that the electrical summation of correlated bass in large rooms (cinema) from 2 spaced subs has a 3 dB buildup error, and from 4 channels a 6 dB error, in a home theater those errors are cut in half, 1.5 dB and 3 dB, respectively. This was independently confirmed by Dolby and THX, and is programmed into bass management gain offsets so that when a system chooses a different number of subs, it compensates automatically. That may help explain why bass management in homes is not really a problem for playback accuracy.

The difference between theaters and homes has to do with the bass wavelengths vs the distance between the speakers. If 2 subs are co-located, the acoustic addition will be the full 6 dB (same as electrical). If the subs are spread 8-12' such as the L/R speakers at home, the buildup is less (~4.5 dB). In a cinema it may be the least. OTOH, the new Atmos diagrams show three subs co-located behind the screen.
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post #108 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 11:40 AM
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Meanwhile.

Wow, 64 speakers.
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post #109 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I have met GXM.

I can assure anyone reading this that he most definitely has reliable information regarding Atmos.

Oh, that wasn't in question at all. If anyone wondered if my post was meant to be sarcastic or in any way questioning GXMnow's credentials, it wasn't (darn text makes it difficult to decipher intent).

Just as I appreciate your input Marc, because it helps me put things in perspective and gain a better understanding of why certain things are the way they are in the industry from your knowledge and insider background from the audio mixing end of the chain, and Roger's background from having been involved in developing and implementing many of the technologies that I'm enjoying today, I was curious as to which part of the chain GXMnow is from.

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Not directed at me but I'll give my opinion.

These advances in tech might keep audiences interested but won't sustain long term growth of the business.

I'm one of those that would lament the decline of the social movie going experience.

However.... IMO theaters largely survive in the US because teeneagers and young adults need somewhere to depart with their disposable income.

I don't think that will change anytime soon.

I would also concur that the moviegoing experience is a social thing. Even if one's home theater has better audio and video reproduction than most commercial theaters, the teens will still prefer to go to a new movie when it debuts in theaters not only for the thrill of seeing it when it first comes out, but also for the social interaction and being able to go out with friends and be away from their parents for a bit.

I have to admit sadly, that I don't really go to the movies as much these days because I've been quite disappointed by the quality (or lack thereof) of the experience with subpar audio and even video depending on the venue (coupled with the fact that 24p judder annoys me). The few times I DO go these days however, it's more for the social experience than it is for the movie itself.

That said though, I sincerely hope that the market for moviegoers does NOT dwindle, as I would wonder about the continuation of productions of epic large scale blockbusters if movie going for some reason, died out. With a continuous resupply of teens and hence new moviegoers though, I don't think that will happen. I DO still recall that it was a different experience to go to the movies with the family vs with a bunch of friends.


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post #110 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 01:42 PM
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I would also concur that the moviegoing experience is a social thing. Even if one's home theater has better audio and video reproduction than most commercial theaters, the teens will still prefer to go to a new movie when it debuts in theaters not only for the thrill of seeing it when it first comes out, but also for the social interaction and being able to go out with friends and be away from their parents for a bit.

I have to admit sadly, that I don't really go to the movies as much these days because I've been quite disappointed by the quality (or lack thereof) of the experience with subpar audio and even video depending on the venue (coupled with the fact that 24p judder annoys me). The few times I DO go these days however, it's more for the social experience than it is for the movie itself.

That said though, I sincerely hope that the market for moviegoers does NOT dwindle, as I would wonder about the continuation of productions of epic large scale blockbusters if movie going for some reason, died out. With a continuous resupply of teens and hence new moviegoers though, I don't think that will happen. I DO still recall that it was a different experience to go to the movies with the family vs with a bunch of friends.

Max

Max. Didn't mean to imply any doubters. Just happens I know GXM and if he remains anonymous I can vouch for him.

The adoption of D-Cinema is advanceing at such a pace I think we will see the end of 35mm prints at the end of 2013.

A film I mixed which opens tomorrow on 2800÷ screens has around only 450 35mm prints.

The rapid adoption has had the great side effect that most theaters have taken a fresh once over on the audio side as new digital projectors are installed.
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post #111 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 04:29 PM
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Ah not a primary motive but certainly one not lost on the industry in general by any stretch.

Not a primary motive? Nice backpedal. Selling more speakers is the only motive you've assigned to them, as evidenced by your first three posts in this thread:
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Another industry attempt to sell more speakers. aka DSX on steroids.

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Yes more speakers, more amps, more wire, etc. to sell. Each of us get to do our own little cost/benefit analysis as to when enough is enough.

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Yes after surround sound, Room EQ and lossless there is not much left to sell besides more speakers.


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post #112 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 04:45 PM
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Wow, 64 speakers.

Originally intended for automotive sound.

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post #113 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Wow, 64 speakers.

Its not actually 64 speakers technically.

But 64 outputs that can feed zones (i. e. a surround zone can still contain more than one spekaer. )

I highly recommend reading.the white papers on Dolby 's site.
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post #114 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 06:08 PM
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Not a primary motive? Nice backpedal. Selling more speakers is the only motive you've assigned to them, as evidenced by your first three posts in this thread:

Nice outing.
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post #115 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 06:52 PM
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From what I see this thread has drawn the interest of pretty much just the high end 1 per centers. We shall see.

I am not a one per center by any means, and this thread interests me greatly. The bigger issue is that there's not much for a consumer to add to the discussion other than "cool, can't wait to hear it".

And just to note, we go to the movies twice a month. The sound isn't impressive, and I'd love to have improvements, but quality control at the multiplex leaves me with doubts. I'm fine with having something created to sell me new equipment. I'd hate to think we've reached the pinnacle of what is possible in audio reproduction in theaters or at home.
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post #116 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 08:04 PM
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If we are to see a home movie (rather than just a home video game) implementation of Dolby Atmos in the next five to ten years, some (home theater version) element|channel|speaker 'limitations' might be imposed by (say) the HDMI 2.0 spec (scheduled for release in July 2012?), plus whatever Blu-ray spec extensions might come with 4K2K BDs (if indeed such things do appear in 2013|2014).

No doubt there will be some more serious prognostications about home products over the next few months...

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post #117 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 08:25 PM
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some (home theater version) element|channel|speaker 'limitations' might be imposed by (say) the HDMI 2.0 spec

I know you're speculating, but why would the HDMI connection even be aware of channel/speaker count when it comes to object-based soundtracks? Wouldn't the data simply bitstream into the AV receiver and then be rendered to channels based on how many speakers you were using? There can't be a HDMI limitation on the number of channels if that number is decided after the data has gone through the HDMI cable. Maybe a bandwidth limitation.

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post #118 of 1291 Old 04-26-2012, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Its not actually 64 speakers technically.

But 64 outputs that can feed zones (i. e. a surround zone can still contain more than one speaker. )

I highly recommend reading the white papers on Dolby 's site.

I did not see that mentioned anywhere, but I suppose there's no stopping Y splitters if more than 64 speakers need to be used, or perhaps fewer amplifiers. It seemed to me there was a strong case made for individually driving each speaker so as to EQ it and allow it to carry a focused image, when appropriate. Of course it is also possible that any group of speakers can be fed the same signals, just like the good ole days. And that's how the "beds" are reproduced. But all that is just a matter of upstream processing, feeding the individual amps/speakers.

>>The process supports rendering of these beds and objects to up to 64 speaker outputs.<<
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post #119 of 1291 Old 04-27-2012, 12:00 AM
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>>The process supports rendering of these beds and objects to up to 64 speaker outputs.<<

But is that "up to 64 discrete speaker outputs"?

I hope content creators don't have to use beds a lot. New miking techniques (e.g. Ambisonic soundfield microphone) and better effects processors (up to 128 outs) are probably needed.

Markus

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post #120 of 1291 Old 04-27-2012, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Not a primary motive? Nice backpedal. Selling more speakers is the only motive you've assigned to them, as evidenced by your first three posts in this thread:

"Primary" and "only" are your words not mine. In fact so is "motive" - good word though. Here are so other words -


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Do not construe that to mean that I think such evolution should not happen.

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