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Old 07-03-2014, 09:16 AM
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I was thinking about adding a pair of in-ceiling Polk Vanishing Series LS speakers http://www.polkaudio.com/products/ho...ter/in-ceiling for a Dolby Atmos 7.1.2 system in the near future and was wondering if the pair of ceiling speakers should be installed directly above the listeners or in the midway point of the screen and audience. Searching these diagrams I found that it appears that if there is 2 pairs (4 speakers) they go above the front left and right and the rear left and right, but with just the pair should they go either above the side surround speakers above the audience/sofa (I'm leaning this way, with the sound coming from above) or the midway point (between the screen and the audience/sofa, above and forward of the audience) where the sound would come from if the bounce speakers where used instead of the in-ceiling speakers, but not sure. Anyone have any more detailed and correct documentation?
http://res.cloudinary.com/hrscywv4p/...kikndjyggr.jpg


http://res.cloudinary.com/hrscywv4p/...saxdqywjuh.jpg

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Old 07-03-2014, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H8nXTC View Post
I was thinking about adding a pair of in-ceiling Polk Vanishing Series LS speakers http://www.polkaudio.com/products/ho...ter/in-ceiling for a Dolby Atmos 7.1.2 system in the near future and was wondering if the pair of ceiling speakers should be installed directly above the listeners or in the midway point of the screen and audience. Searching these diagrams I found that it appears that if there is 2 pairs (4 speakers) they go above the front left and right and the rear left and right, but with just the pair should they go either above the side surround speakers above the audience/sofa (I'm leaning this way, with the sound coming from above) or the midway point (between the screen and the audience/sofa, above and forward of the audience) where the sound would come from if the bounce speakers where used instead of the in-ceiling speakers, but not sure. Anyone have any more detailed and correct documentation?
http://res.cloudinary.com/hrscywv4p/...kikndjyggr.jpg


http://res.cloudinary.com/hrscywv4p/...saxdqywjuh.jpg
You really want a minimum of four ceiling speakers, but they do not go right above the fronts and rears. They're out in the room a bit more. I would wait a little bit because Atmos compatible speakers (and I don't mean the compromised upward firing variety) will start to trickle out here pretty soon. See what CEDIA brings before jumping into the deep end without first checking to see if there's any water in the pool.

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Old 07-03-2014, 10:48 AM
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Wonder what Klipsch Pro Speakers are used overhead in Dolby Atmos Theaters?
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:00 AM
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Wonder what Klipsch Pro Speakers are used overhead in Dolby Atmos Theaters?
Wide dispersal VBAT surrounds. Looks like a pseudo bipolar tweeter configuration.

http://www.klipsch.com/vbat

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Old 07-03-2014, 11:03 AM
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Nearly almost like my Emotiva ERD surrounds.


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Old 07-03-2014, 11:21 AM
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Nearly almost like my Emotiva ERD surrounds.

Are those tweeters wired in phase or out of phase? The VBAT's, I believe, are bipolar and in-phase.

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Old 07-03-2014, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
You really want a minimum of four ceiling speakers, but they do not go right above the fronts and rears. They're out in the room a bit more. I would wait a little bit because Atmos compatible speakers (and I don't mean the compromised upward firing variety) will start to trickle out here pretty soon. See what CEDIA brings before jumping into the deep end without first checking to see if there's any water in the pool.
OK, but if you can only install 1 pair of ceiling speakers, then? I read on the speaker manual that they suggest at least 2' distance from the wall. The upcoming $1,700 Onkyo TX-NR1030 receiver can only do 1 pair of ceiling speakers with a 7.1 system. The TX-NR3030 can do 2 pair but also costs about $700 more (plus $400-600 for another pair of 700-LS ceiling speakers is probably more than I or most others would be willing to spend for the additional pair of ceiling speakers). I'm ONLY interested in considering 1 pair of ceiling speakers additional.

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Old 07-03-2014, 11:33 AM
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That would have been my guess; how do you KNOW this, personal observation?

Those might work well with vaulted ceilings...

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Wide dispersal VBAT surrounds. Looks like a pseudo bipolar tweeter configuration.

http://www.klipsch.com/vbat
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:38 AM
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Are those tweeters wired in phase or out of phase? The VBAT's, I believe, are bipolar and in-phase.
Both, actually. There are toggles on the back near the posts that allows to switch one or both tweeters to be in or out of phase with the midbass.

Lol if one really wanted to you could set both tweeters to be out of phase. Probably with ... odd results. Hmmm.....

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Old 07-03-2014, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post
That would have been my guess; how do you KNOW this, personal observation?

Those might work well with vaulted ceilings...
Making a best guess since they don't list other surrounds that would easily mount on the walls or ceilings. From their web page:

Virtual Boundary Array Technology (VBAT) Cinema Surround speakers utilize a pair of patented skewed horns for an extremely wide dispersion pattern-perfect as a sound wall for the latest digital sound formats such as Dolby Atmos™.

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Old 07-03-2014, 12:05 PM
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Yes, sir, guessed that & read that before I posted the question.

Thank you for your answer!

Anyone KNOW!?

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Old 07-03-2014, 12:13 PM
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Yes, sir, guessed that & read that before I posted the question.

Anyone KNOW!?
The current information is that the Atmos-enabled modules will work with regular (not vaulted) ceilings. This info is from Andrew Jones, the renowned speaker designer who has designed Pioneer's Atmos modules. If you have vaulted ceilings you will need real speakers up there.
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Old 07-03-2014, 12:16 PM
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Read that already, friend; but, that was not the answer to my question.
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Old 07-03-2014, 12:54 PM
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Read that already, friend; but, that was not the answer to my question.
Ah - sorry - I see it now. And have no idea, unfortunately. I misread your earlier post, sorry.
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:10 PM
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I have a small apt in NYC. I wonder if there will be small Atmos speaker packages.
Right now I have (don't laugh!) the energy classic 5.1 system. I love it and those little guys pack a punch! If I don't plan to move I guess I could do 5.1.2 w/ the up firing speakers in the future. I know it's not ideal but what alternative do I have!
Atmos is not kind to those with small spaces.
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:55 PM
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Ah - sorry - I see it now. And have no idea, unfortunately. I misread your earlier post, sorry.
Oh, sir, but you DO have a VALID point; may be in vain to try them from the ceiling...

And Thank You for your answer!

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Old 07-07-2014, 03:04 PM
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Is anybody else struggling to decide if they want 7.1.2 or 7.1.4? Part of me thinks that 7.1.2 would be ideal because you'd have the ceiling speakers right above you. In 7.1.4, they'd be spread out around you. Now, perhaps 7.1.2 could be too easy to localize the speakers but 7.1.4 could diminish the sense of something being directly overhead. My rear speakers, for example are currently at the top of the rear wall, in a .4 setup, the rear portion of the ceiling speakers would not be too off-axis from the rear speakers. The perceived spatial difference could be negligible.
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Old 07-07-2014, 03:11 PM
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Is anybody else struggling to decide if they want 7.1.2 or 7.1.4? Part of me thinks that 7.1.2 would be ideal because you'd have the ceiling speakers right above you. In 7.1.4, they'd be spread out around you. Now, perhaps 7.1.2 could be too easy to localize the speakers but 7.1.4 could diminish the sense of something being directly overhead. My rear speakers, for example are currently at the top of the rear wall, in a .4 setup, the rear portion of the ceiling speakers would not be too off-axis from the rear speakers. The perceived spatial difference could be negligible.
I'd take the four ceiling speaker approach in small to medium sized rooms. They're individual "channels" of overhead sound, they aren't duplicated front and back. If a movie like Transformers or The Hobbit is your thing then you want to be able to recreate movement or panning of sounds overhead. With only one pair of overheads, you cannot recreate that sensation very well.

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Old 07-07-2014, 04:05 PM
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Part of me thinks that 7.1.2 would be ideal because you'd have the ceiling speakers right above you.
True, if you want to hear sounds right above you, place a pair of speakers right above you. However, the downside to a single pair is that you can only get left vs right movement overhead, not front to back. For that, you need two pairs, once slightly forward of your listening position and one slightly rearward of your listening position.
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My rear speakers, for example are currently at the top of the rear wall, in a .4 setup, the rear portion of the ceiling speakers would not be too off-axis from the rear speakers. The perceived spatial difference could be negligible.
That's not a good, even though they'll be getting different signals, it will still sound like it's coming from the same direction. How high are your ears off the floor when seated (36", 42"?), how high is your ceiling, and how far behind you is your back wall?

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Old 07-07-2014, 04:19 PM
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Overheads

I think a set of 4 NHT ic-4's for the overhead channels would work very well with 3 tweeter array in each.
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Old 07-07-2014, 04:28 PM
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why or why not would 4 of these in an overhead square of "good " spacing be OK?
I can see that relying on reflectivity from the horns would contribute to "sonicly directive confusion" in as much as the object is have them NOT be so close to the walls as to interfere with sound from the surrounds, rear or side.


that's why it seems co-axe's of a direct nondispersive approach may be more effective


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Old 07-07-2014, 04:42 PM
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Definitely! wrt use of coax speakers, Will.

These types of speakers splash sound all over. Whether or not that is a goal or if it works well within the intended environment is up to speculation.

You certainly wouldn't want to use multi-polar speakers in a well treated room. Ivan's room, for example.

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Old 07-07-2014, 04:51 PM
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why or why not would 4 of these in an overhead square of "good " spacing be OK?
It won't help anchor sounds above you by bouncing them off the side walls.

Sanjay
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Old 07-07-2014, 05:20 PM
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I think some folks are jumping the gun here proposing existing ceiling speaker options (esp ones that don't have the correct dispersion pattern) before any official Atmos certified speakers have been released or formally announced. I'd imagine within a few weeks we'll start to see solid info on what exactly various manufacturers are going to be releasing for Atmos. Certainly by the the time CEDIA rolls around we'll have a pretty decent idea.
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Old 07-07-2014, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
You really want a minimum of four ceiling speakers, but they do not go right above the fronts and rears. They're out in the room a bit more. I would wait a little bit because Atmos compatible speakers (and I don't mean the compromised upward firing variety) will start to trickle out here pretty soon. See what CEDIA brings before jumping into the deep end without first checking to see if there's any water in the pool.
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Old 07-07-2014, 05:38 PM
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As we get further along, photos showing our speaker layouts with user comment.
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Old 07-07-2014, 05:46 PM
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Yes I am holding to decide what will be the next move!
Thank you both, Scott and Sanjay and others for sensible input such as,


SLOW DOWN TURBO.


this will me give a few more months to try and budget for an E-Ticket to Audio Nirvana . . .


I just figured out that I can take the 2 SLX out of the man-cave to have 4 for the tops, IF APPROPRIATE, and
JEESH, Give it a rest.


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Old 07-07-2014, 06:18 PM
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I don't see how Dolby could recommend one type of speaker that's going to work "the best" for every theater or preference. It's just going to be like the di-pole vs bi-pole vs-direct radiating argument all over again. Granted, a co-ax in-ceiling speaker will probably work "best", but that's not going to be feasible or ideal in every situation.
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Old 07-07-2014, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
I don't see how Dolby could recommend one type of speaker that's going to work "the best" for every theater or preference. It's just going to be like the di-pole vs bi-pole vs-direct radiating argument all over again. Granted, a co-ax in-ceiling speaker will probably work "best", but that's not going to be feasible or ideal in every situation.
I think they are probably more likely to to specify what types won't work well generally, say ones with incorrect dispersion patterns to be able render Atmos effects correctly. I can see it being more like a certification that technically certain speakers/designs meet the criteria for Atmos reproduction, but it's going to be up to individual or installer to work out which particular speakers and layout work best in a particular room.

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Old 07-07-2014, 06:56 PM
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now its all semantics


there may be a range of characteristics that will deem a speaker or speakers "suitable" within a range of variously configured /suitable for home HT applications to include minimally ,FR, Dispersion characteristics, power handling, etc.
Hopefully a minimally compromised chip/algorithm will do the wrap up, which if along with Audyssey, should be able to give optimally what we want.

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