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post #1381 of 1405 Old 10-25-2015, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
I wish there would be more scientific studies that research sound fields, recording techniques and perception in acoustically small rooms. There is virtually nothing conclusive. Any "expert" can sell anything and we've seen exactly that happening for example in control room design over the last decades. Short summary in https://www.gearslutz.com/board/stud...ic-design.html
My answer to that is that there is nothing conclusive because scientifically speaking it is impossible to come up with anything conclusive or exact in the normal sense.
Sound, both direct and reflected is chaotic and different frequencies and loudness levels all add to the chaos or confusion.
Sure, it is easy to make assumptions that artificially and un-realistically limit the variables involved and we can come up with some artificial "standard" but sooner or later someone finds out from experience that the standard has significant flaws.
A relevant example is the problem of getting an even sound field from a Dolby Atmos system over a variety of seating positions. Not too difficult to get it reasonably right for the MLP but very difficult to do for a number of rows and seats.
If we are very wealthy we can pay someone like Keith Yates a lot of money to use CFD based computer analysis to come up with a "scientifically" based solution but that solution only holds for that room with those particular speakers in that particular arrangement so we have to start again for the next room etc.
As far as modern science is concerned (in relation to sound and other matters), uncertainty rules, OK.
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post #1382 of 1405 Old 10-25-2015, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by catonic View Post
My answer to that is that there is nothing conclusive because scientifically speaking it is impossible to come up with anything conclusive or exact in the normal sense.
Not sure what "normal" means in this context. I was talking about scientific studies. The research simply hasn't been done. Psychoacoustics is still in its infancy when it comes to small room acoustics.

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Sound, both direct and reflected is chaotic and different frequencies and loudness levels all add to the chaos or confusion.
No, it is not chaotic. We have pretty powerful models these days that can auralize spaces before they are even built.

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Originally Posted by catonic View Post
Sure, it is easy to make assumptions that artificially and un-realistically limit the variables involved and we can come up with some artificial "standard" but sooner or later someone finds out from experience that the standard has significant flaws.
Doesn't compute. Now we have a multitude of rather useless de facto standards, defined by mixing/mastering spaces that follow no (music) or only very crude (movies) standards.

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Originally Posted by catonic View Post
A relevant example is the problem of getting an even sound field from a Dolby Atmos system over a variety of seating positions. Not too difficult to get it reasonably right for the MLP but very difficult to do for a number of rows and seats.
That's the limitations of any channel based approach and Atmos is largely no exception. I've said early on "the channel-based audio bed must die" and still stand by that claim.

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Originally Posted by catonic View Post
If we are very wealthy we can pay someone like Keith Yates a lot of money to use CFD based computer analysis to come up with a "scientifically" based solution but that solution only holds for that room with those particular speakers in that particular arrangement so we have to start again for the next room etc.
Doesn't compute. You can simulate the sound field in a room but that doesn't tell you how it should ideally look like. There are certainly a lot of opinions though by people that make a living designing/building listening spaces like Dennis Erskine or CINERAMAX.

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As far as modern science is concerned (in relation to sound and other matters), uncertainty rules, OK.
No, just the usefulness for sound reproduction is lacking.

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post #1383 of 1405 Old 10-25-2015, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by catonic View Post
Dennis Erskine was right to question the relevance of the link to normal sized home theatre rooms and immersive sound systems such as Dolby Atmos
Except the link was to an Atmos install guide for commercial movie theatres, which is completely relevant to this thread about the commercial theatre version of Atmos. There is a completely separate thread to discuss the home version of Atmos and small room acoustics.

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post #1384 of 1405 Old 10-25-2015, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post
There's a bit of work left to do there. If you think it translates well, enjoy.
Well for rerecording dub stages I'm covered.

With all due respect to Dolby Home Atmos: I think where they really need to redouble their efforts is in Brett Crockett's department, and not so much in Andrew Poulain's. From Alcons I heard that the original charts were undershooting the required speaker deployments and several huge cinemas in europe (including the berlinale palast where Meyers was sent packing after the shootout )required last minute channel add-ons and complete refitting of certain sections (ouch) They are working on Ribbons as you prob know as well as a Trinnov like tri-mike . That I am aware, In the new facility in SF the entire space uder the platforms is replete with Helmholtz Resonators, good space usage no?

I am sure the B-Chain is better there as they did get some flak for the one near Van Nuys.

Cheerio.

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post #1385 of 1405 Old 10-25-2015, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Well for rerecording dub stages I'm covered.

In the new facility in SF the entire space uder the platforms is replete with Helmholtz Resonators, good space usage no?

Cheerio.
I knew I should have patented that....

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post #1386 of 1405 Old 10-25-2015, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackjack616 View Post
which would be better 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 setup?
Tony Grimani thinks the former, I agree width channels are a great necessity but I like to tightly pack my ceilings so what is best minimum?

9.2.8 Bring it on!

Auromax is coming with widths and upper wall widths and DTS-X will probably conform to that later. We got decent results at the IMMERSION 2025 with 13.2 Auromatic without the vogs because the booth builder reneged the day Barco went to inspect the booth. Talk a about last minute crisis mode shuffling.

I think that these chip based home processors are not really object based but channel based with metadata manipulation. Walter said so and he is one of Europes top small room acousticians, and a fanatically precise scientist on dsp filtering and rendering - very left side of Brain. Barco is giving us access to the latest plugins from AUROMAX and IOSONO to re-render the 12 channels to the above suggested layouts. But you need both sides Brain. Me, I know by instinct over the years where the speakers need to go, also placing the ceiling speakers on tracks helps to dial in the close personal space invasion. Also I copy the work done on re-recording studios where the frontish and backish ceilings are aimed at the immediate family seats and let the guests be amazed by the other aspects of the presentation. Dennis is very deliberate to please everyone, 5 will get you 10 the people in the zhitty seats can't tell the difference so screw them, because you cannot be really great sounding at every seat so I say give the superior envelopment experience to the center 6. As your attorney therefore I admonish that you cannot give great sounds to all seats without compromising the real MLP's ability to have tight close personal space invasion rather than a diffuse semi-kinetic field. I borrowed that from the Atmos re-rec dubstages. And thusfar working in 9-12 ceilings The top tightly paired four is a work in progress, i'll admit.
You can do coaxial amt's but its a big box with 12"'s.

Speaking of Walter's anal retentiveness to stick to plans...
When he said to place the AURO side channels at 110 degrees as prescribed I pulled Rank on him and yanked the drill from the carpenter about to drill the holes at 110. "I want to hear my phantom widths and these things are going at the 90 degree position. That is an order."

At the end he agreed that was a great idea! Perception is Learned remember that!

Another myth busted is that an auromatic system cannot do spectacular sounding pans, the height channel complemnet aligned with the surrounds created a very dynamic 3d audio visually coherent directionally accurate presentation in the only atmos clip played in our auromatic systems on chapter 10 you were there hearing the whale harpoons shot from the back of the room swooshing with gravitas towrds different parts of the screen. That is why we need to take apart these current processors, in general we need to supercharge the computing reuirments to have the bandwidth and headroom necessary, cost be dammed.

We are adding this monster to the datasat in our rigs to do Neville-Thiel x-overs to do the IOSONO re-rendering, to add widths and fron and back heights and to steer the crap out of our beds! Ain't it fun?


Here is a picture of the fittingly named BRAIN. It is also the world's finest video scaler in 2d, and will handle Tecgnicolor HDR-SDR-expansion intelligent tone mapping functionalities, this baby is PLUG IN CITY! We will let you know how the 2 first protos will work, but Walter says no worries. I think DTS-X plug in is not unobtainable, if only we could get our hands on the atmos like trinnov has the only difference would be trinnovs holme pc motherboard versus our parallel xeons with 8 cores and Nvidia TI class graphics. Our eraly test unit regularly blows breakers on the other side of the panel with it's inrush power. LOL
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post #1387 of 1405 Old 10-25-2015, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Tony Grimani thinks the former, I agree width channels are a great necessity but I like to tightly pack my ceilings so what is best minimum?

9.2.8 Bring it on!

Auromax is coming with widths and upper wall widths and DTS-X will probably conform to that later. We got decent results at the IMMERSION 2025 with 13.2 Auromatic without the vogs because the booth builder reneged the day Barco went to inspect the booth. Talk a about last minute crisis mode shuffling.

I think that these chip based home processors are not really object based but channel based with metadata manipulation. Walter said so and he is one of Europes top small room acousticians, and a fanatically precise scientist on dsp filtering and rendering - very left side of Brain. Barco is giving us access to the latest plugins from AUROMAX and IOSONO to re-render the 12 channels to the above suggested layouts. But you need both sides Brain. Me, I know by instinct over the years where the speakers need to go, also placing the ceiling speakers on tracks helps to dial in the close personal space invasion. Also I copy the work done on re-recording studios where the frontish and backish ceilings are aimed at the immediate family seats and let the guests be amazed by the other aspects of the presentation. Dennis is very deliberate to please everyone, 5 will get you 10 the people in the zhitty seats can't tell the difference so screw them, because you cannot be really great sounding at every seat so I say give the superior envelopment experience to the center 6. As your attorney therefore I admonish that you cannot give great sounds to all seats without compromising the real MLP's ability to have tight close personal space invasion rather than a diffuse semi-kinetic field. I borrowed that from the Atmos re-rec dubstages. And thusfar working in 9-12 ceilings The top tightly paired four is a work in progress, i'll admit.
You can do coaxial amt's but its a big box with 12"'s.

Speaking of Walter's anal retentiveness to stick to plans...
When he said to place the AURO side channels at 110 degrees as prescribed I pulled Rank on him and yanked the drill from the carpenter about to drill the holes at 110. "I want to hear my phantom widths and these things are going at the 90 degree position. That is an order."

At the end he agreed that was a great idea! Perception is Learned remember that!

Another myth busted is that an auromatic system cannot do spectacular sounding pans, the height channel complemnet aligned with the surrounds created a very dynamic 3d audio visually coherent directionally accurate presentation in the only atmos clip played in our auromatic systems on chapter 10 you were there hearing the whale harpoons shot from the back of the room swooshing with gravitas towrds different parts of the screen. That is why we need to take apart these current processors, in general we need to supercharge the computing reuirments to have the bandwidth and headroom necessary, cost be dammed.

We are adding this monster to the datasat in our rigs to do Neville-Thiel x-overs to do the IOSONO re-rendering, to add widths and fron and back heights and to steer the crap out of our beds! Ain't it fun?


Here is a picture of the fittingly named BRAIN. It is also the world's finest video scaler in 2d, and will handle Tecgnicolor HDR-SDR-expansion intelligent tone mapping functionalities, this baby is PLUG IN CITY! We will let you know how the 2 first protos will work, but Walter says no worries. I think DTS-X plug in is not unobtainable, if only we could get our hands on the atmos like trinnov has the only difference would be trinnovs holme pc motherboard versus our parallel xeons with 8 cores and Nvidia TI class graphics. Our eraly test unit regularly blows breakers on the other side of the panel with it's inrush power. LOL
Everything you post looks and sounds like the output of a robot that creates texts which can get past spam filters. That picture is clearly a fake – WTF?

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post #1388 of 1405 Old 10-25-2015, 07:39 PM
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We ordered two of these cases.

Want to see real Mr. Robot Hunter?

Watch and weep:

Ein neues Wichsvorlage für du!;D

Good Night!
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post #1389 of 1405 Old 10-26-2015, 03:30 AM
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Odd.

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post #1390 of 1405 Old 11-04-2015, 09:09 PM
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Greetings fellas. I'm sure this has been asked but if not I wanted some clarification. I have had my 7.2(woofers) setup for the last few years. I have my side and rear surround speakers mounted from the ceiling with ceiling mounts and the speakers are directed at my center seating position. So, I don't plan on adding any speakers on stands and I really would like to keep what I have for now. So, is atmos out I guess if I don't want to add the floor speakers. I would assume that the new Dolby surround format will provide an increase in sound envelopment?
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post #1391 of 1405 Old 11-05-2015, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn View Post
I would assume that the new Dolby surround format will provide an increase in sound envelopment?
This thread is for the discussion of the commercial cinema version of Atmos, which doesn't use Dolby Surround upmixing. You'd get better/more responses if you re-posted in the consumer Atmos thread: The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

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post #1392 of 1405 Old 11-13-2015, 11:20 PM
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Odd.
very well put. As well as holistic medicine. No evidence ever disproves the theory.
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post #1393 of 1405 Old 11-13-2015, 11:21 PM
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Odd.
very well put. As well as holistic medicine. No evidence ever disproves the theory.
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post #1394 of 1405 Old 11-15-2015, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jonathan56 View Post
very well put. As well as holistic medicine. No evidence ever disproves the theory.
If it sounds like a more convincing holosonic truthful to a lifelike experience where is the harm? I am not proposing to not put atmos in , just to be able to A/B atmos BD's with something like Auromatic or it's future 22 channel Auromax.

Our ears have evolved over many thousands of years, we hear in 3d at all times. But I digress as this is the cinema thread. I like the cp-850 and the RMU it is just with the home Atmos that I fill we have been shafted.

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post #1395 of 1405 Old 11-23-2015, 09:51 PM
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Hi gang; I'll post a pic tomorrow (EDIT: added) hopefully, but I'm FINALLY ready to get started on my 23 x 45 FUN ROOM, with about a 23 x 23 footprint for the main theater area.

I'll have a 7.2.4 array. All but the rear surrounds should be optimally or near-optimally placed.

But the rear surrounds will suffer from "imperfect" placement. It's simply not feasible to have them 4-5 feet off the floor (8 foot ceilings) optimally angled behind the main listening position. I am not placing speaker stands and running xlr's and power cords (powered QSC K 10's) to these points.

This all never minds the fact that I'll have a separate "seating area" behind the main 4 seats (on a 7" riser) that will never receive the optimal surround effect(s): too bad lol.

Basically, it's:


"Optimum" lateral placement, but ceiling mounted and deflecting onto the main listening position...

OR

"Optimum" height, side wall mounted, but splayed out beyond optimum "behind" angling.

My inclination is ceiling...and it would make install cleaner and easier, conveniently. But I'm also thinking that if I can get them far enough behind the MLP, then I can talk myself into rear wall placement easily enough.

Optimum angle, poor/imperfect height

Vs

Optimum height, poor/imperfect angle

The dispersion on the K10's is 90 degrees.

Help would be appreciated!

Thanks gang!

James
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post #1396 of 1405 Old 11-23-2015, 09:53 PM
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Oh my, I followed the link from google- wrong thread?!

Sorry!

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post #1397 of 1405 Old 11-30-2015, 03:31 PM
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Dolby Atmos capability

Do you have an opinion on this please?

1. I will be adding them as 5.1.2. Can these be substituted for 7.1 when Atmos material is not on the file/disk?
2. I want to use these as well for music in multi channel stereo, and providing Audyssey mixes appropriately it should sound more powerful than now?

3. I have 18' ceilings. I would assume the theaters are higher. They will be placed approximately 8' off the ground. Will I still be able to enjoy questions 1,2 relatively the same?

This is what the speaker company said, but another speaker company said they would be fine for music providing Audyssey mixed it and 18' ceilings should not be a problem.

"Atmos is an entirely different encoding and decoding technology. All non-Atmos content, when played through an Atmos decoder with Atmos speakers will be un-converted into an approximation of Atmos.

Theater ceilings are really tall, but 18’ is very high for a home theater speaker. Cinemas use huge speakers and many of them. The no speakers available will really fill a room with 18’ ceilings with Atmos. That is 36’ from the point of view of the speaker!
Even setting the speaker up 8’ means the sound has to get “back” to you. Figure 14’+10’=24’ round trip.
We honestly don’t know what will happen. I have set up Atmos theaters in many rooms. Ceilings as high as 10’. But 18 might be a stretch.

Not all rooms will support Dolby Atmos.

I wouldn’t use them for anything other than music with the receiver set to Dolby atmos. Atmos enabled speakers are specifically degined for Atmos and object based audio. During set up you need to inform the receiver you are using Atmos enabled speakers. This changes the signal sent to them from the receiver. I would imagine setting the receiver to multichannel stereo will turn off the Atmos channels. But it depends on the receiver."

I have a Denon AVRX 1200 and I am thinking about purchasing the Atl Tech 44-da





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post #1398 of 1405 Old 12-26-2015, 11:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you have an opinion on this please?
You'll have better chance for advice in the Home Theater Atmos thread. Link.

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post #1399 of 1405 Old 12-26-2015, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Nice homage to Spinal Tap, that.



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Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #1400 of 1405 Old 12-27-2015, 02:25 AM
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'Spinal Tap' ... good one!

♦ Happy Holidays Roger!

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post #1401 of 1405 Old 02-07-2016, 05:46 PM
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2 questions regarding in ceiling atmos speakers.

1) do the speakers have to be the same height? i have a soffit thats about 4 inches lower than the ceiling and ideally in order for the speakers to be behind the listening area they would have to be in the soffit. which would put the 2 front speakers about 4 inches higher on the ceiling in front of the seating positions. iam assuming they should be the same height which would cause me to move my seating forward a bit which i guess is not a big deal.

2) how do you measure the angle the speakers should be pointed towards the listening position.

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post #1402 of 1405 Old 02-07-2016, 05:51 PM
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do the speakers have to be the same height?
Your AV receiver can compensate for differences in distance.
Quote:
how far forward and how far behind the seating positioning should the speakers be placed?
Measure distance from your ears to the ceiling; same distance forward and behind on the ceiling are good locations.

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post #1403 of 1405 Old 02-07-2016, 05:54 PM
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sdurani, thanks!, i just came up with an idea tell me what you think of this. the soffit runs around the perimeter of the room (obviously). would it be okay to put all the speakers both rear and front in the soffit? they would be off to the sides of the room which would be wider than the seating positioning and in line with the front speakers which i believe is how they should be?

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post #1404 of 1405 Old 02-07-2016, 06:28 PM
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IF they're in line with the front speakers, then that'll work, though I prefer them closer together (inward of the soffit) for a more 'overhead' sound.

BTW, this is a thread dedicated to the theatrical version of Atmos. There is another thread in the Receiver section that is dedicated to the home version of Atmos.

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post #1405 of 1405 Old 02-08-2016, 08:55 AM
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Oh sorry about that thanks again

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