Trumbull drums up TORUS SCREEN - Resistance is futile!!! - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 19 Old 12-05-2012, 02:36 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: everywhere
Posts: 12,603
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 55
http://billdesowitz.com/trumbull-talks-the-future-of-exhibition/

Finally someone starts making sense.biggrin.gif


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CINERAMAX is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 19 Old 12-05-2012, 11:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dbuudo07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,762
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 110
I love well executed 3D, so this isn't a knock on it. The problem with silver screens comes up during 2D showings. I screen a few films each week switching between silver and white screens and the silver screens always suffer from hot spotting. There needs to be either a major step forward in 3D projection or screen technology to make both formats work.

David Budo
Dbuudo07 is offline  
post #3 of 19 Old 12-06-2012, 01:56 AM
Member
 
Axel Fransberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
A high gain screen doesn't really help with the brightness since the reason why 3D screens are so dim is that they need to be able to show 2D movies also. You can only dim a xenon lamp to about 60% of its max power so if you calibrate the projector to output 15-16 foot lambert in 2D then you will be lucky to get 30 foot lambert for 3D, depending on the 3d system that will be around 3-5 foot lambert that comes trough the glasses. There are ways to dim the light output other than driving down the power to lamp but requires a technician in the booth so those options will not be considered by multiplex theaters. Unless you have 50+ foot screen getting 30 foot lamberts on a low gain screen isn't really a problem.

If you want good bright 3D you shouldn't use silver screens anyway because even if you had say 6 foot lamberts center brightness measured trough the glasses the average brightness is going to be less than half of that because of the hot spotting. Also silver screens lower the sharpness of the image quite a lot. There is a reason why in France they decided to ban them.
Axel Fransberg is offline  
post #4 of 19 Old 12-06-2012, 04:12 AM
Member
 
Axel Fransberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I took a closer look on what torus screens are and they seem to solve the problem with uneven illumination on silver screens but they add barrel distortion and because of that you have to heavily crop the image to be able to fill the whole screen.
Also after a bit of googling I found this quote on torus screens:
"There was nothing like a suck screen that stopped sucking for a variety of reasons; like the area behind the screen filling with water and killing the suction motor. Made the screen look like a spent condom.
When they worked light was fine but the screen behaved like a parabolic reflector for sound so you could hear conversation on the other side of the room."
~Sam D. Chavez

They seem to be really light efficient but I don't see them being worth the trouble.
Axel Fransberg is offline  
post #5 of 19 Old 12-06-2012, 04:12 AM
Member
 
Axel Fransberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Pressed the submit button twice frown.gif
Axel Fransberg is offline  
post #6 of 19 Old 12-07-2012, 04:47 PM
Advanced Member
 
johnbr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: london,ontario,canada
Posts: 685
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I have always greatly admired Trumbull my dream has always to see a movie like the Abass in 3D showcan.
johnbr is offline  
post #7 of 19 Old 12-09-2012, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: everywhere
Posts: 12,603
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 55






The screen rocks, if you are a videophile you must consider the torus.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CINERAMAX is offline  
post #8 of 19 Old 12-10-2012, 03:26 PM
Member
 
Axel Fransberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Barrel distortion and lower image resolution isn't really qualities a videophile would be looking for. Besides Trumbull was talking about commercial cinemas, what a curved solid screen does to the acoustics and that you can not have the speakers behind the screen makes it not an option.
Axel Fransberg is offline  
post #9 of 19 Old 12-10-2012, 03:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 19,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 364 Post(s)
Liked: 440
Torus screens are a bitch to cross with good acoustics in a large HT and next to impossible in a small. It is way different than a simple curved screen. I have seen our friend Cineramax pull it off and there is a video of me and my wife visiting that installation and commenting vary favorably on it. It makes 2D viewing have a lot of depth. I didn't notice any hotspotting on Peter's setup in a $50 million house but his throw was very long. I didn't check for barallel distortion. But I do know it took Peter a lot of trial and error to get it right and I think some of the solutions are proprietary so I will let Peter comment further if he likes.

Mark Haflich

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
post #10 of 19 Old 12-11-2012, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: everywhere
Posts: 12,603
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Fransberg View Post

Barrel distortion and lower image resolution isn't really qualities a videophile would be looking for. Besides Trumbull was talking about commercial cinemas, what a curved solid screen does to the acoustics and that you can not have the speakers behind the screen makes it not an option.

The proof is in the pudding. I studied over 30 torus installations to deconstruct the causes or absence of the acoustical anomalies, I also have 5 STEWART torus installations under my belt and 17 Biener solid 8 foot wide Parabolic screen installations- since 1989.

Phoebe (commissioned in 1993 and now placed on market by new purchaser Pharell Williams).







Due to the white pearwood acoustics, this one was a toughie,the jbl synthesis one is harsh in here, also concentrating all the speakers underneath the high aspect ratio screen 1.66, gets the sound creeping up into the parabola.

That is consistent with my findings in smaller AMC auditoriums that had a wall to wall 1.85 torus, the HIT sound system would image poorly within the parabola.



I did find that in AMC rooms were the left channel and right channel flanked the CINEMASCOPE screen the experience was phenomenal, best in class imparting a 70 mm depth and richness to the image and the impression of highly increased resolution. It's because of the amazing evenness of luminosity coupled with the higher MTF of the screen. Why are you saying lesser resolution? (you are completely incorrect there).

Barrel distortion effects are minimal unless you are playing video games, in fact having the screen shape coupled to the eye is the most organic form of screen projection, you would have to see it to believe it. I sooo spin your disadvantage into a Primordial Necessity, you have no idea.

FOR A NON-TORUS EXPERT, proclaiming such negative statements about it without even understanding it is irresponsible. In the future such comment would be akin to being a flat earther or worse a book burner. Because the torus is the ultimate man machine interface in the age of the new literacy.

YOU ARE WRONG to critic based on 2 criteria whilst ignoring 20 others (many still not fully understood psychovisual phenomenae).

Let me show you my cadre:

ATLAS is an incredible sounding audiophile room, Perfect, it has a TORUS. Kitscher than a northern European bordello but best torus sounding room due to all the dampening.





PROMETHEUS was documented in a thread here in the DCI sectrion.





I returned from London last week meeting with ZHA architecs where owner of SKOLL and the upcoming ALBIORIX selected a 2-1 aspect ratio TORUS for his 3rd commissioned cinema: EUROPA (after also seeing PROMETHEUS and PHOEBE).This is significant because EUROPA is a moon of Jupiter not Saturn.

If ALBIORIX doubles up on the SKOLL technical experience by a factor of 2, EUROPA does so by 4.

In fact the goals in EUROPA are to recreate reality, no stops will be pulled, THAT MEANS A TORUS as the center piece. With the first moon of Jupiter we are creating a far more elevated standard of performance that seeks an obscure new frontier of what Spectacle means. EUROPA's portfolio of features delivers a rich pallete of so subtle nuances, again many not fully understood phenomenons but that bestow a significant contribution to the recreation of reality: Torus, passive dual projection 3D, autoconvergence among projectors, special lens proximization optics for dual projjectors,4K, special lenses,new more subtle sigmoid gamma curves,teranex 2d to 3d conversion, HFR, Dolby Atmos, 3D front speaker Trinnov DSP processing, Custom Quested monitors Farfield and specialized ATMOS purpose monitors, a new generation of cinema chairs with built in ipad minis with food and beverage concierge features (delivered to each chair), and finger print readers for access to controls and seat comfort memories, air conditioning or heating blowing from seats, exact center of gravity D-Box chair endoskeleton. And last but not least twin Rotary subwoofers.

More Improvements on our already new improved CINERAMAX higher back Strato seats.




Cinema for a spaceship house in Moscow.




And here is Trumbull's Lab's Torus.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CINERAMAX is offline  
post #11 of 19 Old 12-11-2012, 03:05 PM
Member
 
Axel Fransberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
My comment on that torus screens have lower resolution comes from that to my knowledge all silver screens do and I don't see why a torus screen would be different in that respect. If you don't believe me you can project a focus test image partly on a silver screen and partly on matte white screen, I have done it and you can really see the difference.

The problem with curved screens are that almost all projector lenses are made for flat screens so you get barrel distortion and uneven focus on the screen. I haven't done projector installations on torus screens but I have on other curved screens and it's always a pain in the a**, you can never get the image alignment as perfect as with a flat screen.
I have no personal experience with torus screens but what I could gather from googling is that they fell out of fashion in commercial cinemas quite fast due to the bad effects they have on the room acoustics and that the suction in the screen would sooner or later fail and you would get several lost shows because of that. Those things have not as I understand changed so I stand by my opinion that torus screens are not a good option for for commercial cinemas. I personally do not like curved screens for the reasons I've mentioned but I can see why some people like you like them because of the depth they give.

I'm not burning any books I'm only saying my opinion on curved screens and silver screens, sharing opinion, knowledge and experience is I think one of the main functions of an internet forum.
Axel Fransberg is offline  
post #12 of 19 Old 08-18-2013, 08:19 PM
Newbie
 
sega3dmm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I think I would have to agree with Axel. I could see Torus screens have potential in speciality formats if the lens are curved that way, kind of like Cinerama and Todd-AO which used deeply curved screens. Torus may be excellent for Showscan, but for most films and most theaters, Torus distorts the picture. I prefer flat screens. And in most, if not all Torus setups, sound placement for LCR and LFE are screwed up. They can't be placed behind the screen because its a solid, not perforated screen. Maybe Trumbull is too focused on the picture quality and not the overall immersion (picture, sound, room, light) aspects of moviegoing. rolleyes.gif
sega3dmm is offline  
post #13 of 19 Old 09-02-2013, 02:19 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: everywhere
Posts: 12,603
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 55
You are entitled to your opinion, but I have not seen your work , me on the other hand my cadre is an open book, My best work is on Torus screens, The sound is a matter easily licked.

Here is our next Torus project:



To me the second best thing to a Torus is Rearprojection, Only when I cannot do either of those two implementations for lack of space or throw distance is where I go kicking and screaming into a wink.gif.;-)


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CINERAMAX is offline  
post #14 of 19 Old 09-04-2013, 05:11 PM
Member
 
dr.sound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
"The sound is a matter easily licked"
Yes, with a sledge hammer!
You are compromising the sound for sake of the picture.
Your priorities are so focused on the picture that you are
willing to make the sound suffer. Yes it does suffer.
You can place all the speakers around the edge you want but it will never
Sound like the way it was originally mixed and intended.
Sad really. The whole idea of a “Home Cinema” is to replicate the
“Cinema Experience” within your home. Not compromise it!
Reddig likes this.
dr.sound is offline  
post #15 of 19 Old 09-04-2013, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: everywhere
Posts: 12,603
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 55
It has been done in Prometheus where even you if you experienced it would accept it sounds great, and also be thrilled by the immediacy of the video. I have been around home theaters since 1979, a Torus is the single most important element in my opinion.

Some try to portray the directors intentions others create systems of such e tremendous fidelity that border on the recreation of reality. When such a director experiences such hyper realistic system they re quite taken by the experience and forgive the peccadillo.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CINERAMAX is offline  
post #16 of 19 Old 09-07-2013, 08:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reddig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Hays, KS
Posts: 1,631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post

"The sound is a matter easily licked"
Yes, with a sledge hammer!
You are compromising the sound for sake of the picture.
Your priorities are so focused on the picture that you are
willing to make the sound suffer. Yes it does suffer.
You can place all the speakers around the edge you want but it will never
Sound like the way it was originally mixed and intended.
Sad really. The whole idea of a “Home Cinema” is to replicate the
“Cinema Experience” within your home. Not compromise it!

I agree. I would never sacrifice audio for picture quality. Torus screens are ok for the videophile that doesn't mind a non traditional placement but in a large cinema everyone I ever witnessed the sound left alot to be desired, I'm referring to AMC cinemas. I prefer audio to com from the screen not above or below or a phantom center. We need to work on better perf screens. To each his own Cineramaxx. Rooms look awesome tho.

JBL Pro Cinema
Reddig is offline  
post #17 of 19 Old 09-07-2013, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: everywhere
Posts: 12,603
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Hi Reddig, Of thr three kind amc hit systems, the flat screen rooms where horrible, the stadium cinmascopes where beyond bad, but the over your head screen flanking right and left array was fantastic, this model can be replicated with good success. You are bundling all three approaches to justify saying Torus sound sucks, no torus sound sucks 75% of the time but there were quite a few venues that are a jewel to behold. I say take those exceptions and improve them.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CINERAMAX is offline  
post #18 of 19 Old 09-09-2013, 10:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Reddig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Hays, KS
Posts: 1,631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Hi Reddig, Of thr three kind amc hit systems, the flat screen rooms where horrible, the stadium cinmascopes where beyond bad, but the over your head screen flanking right and left array was fantastic, this model can be replicated with good success. You are bundling all three approaches to justify saying Torus sound sucks, no torus sound sucks 75% of the time but there were quite a few venues that are a jewel to behold. I say take those exceptions and improve them.

Hi Cineramax. I have no doubt that if anyone could make a Torus setup sound great it would be you.

JBL Pro Cinema
Reddig is offline  
post #19 of 19 Old 09-09-2013, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: everywhere
Posts: 12,603
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Thanks for the vote of confidence Reddig. It is not that hard to do, common sense.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CINERAMAX is offline  
Reply D-cinema Equipment and Theaters

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off