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-   -   would the fda allow people to buy laser dci projectors for their houses? (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/185-d-cinema-equipment-theaters/1497447-would-fda-allow-people-buy-laser-dci-projectors-their-houses.html)

ComputerTech0903 10-31-2013 07:52 PM

I thought I read the fda is pretty strict on these high powered lasers could you even buy one for your house if they were available?

lovinthehd 10-31-2013 08:46 PM

If you are going to import one better beware the documentation requirements shouldn't be taken lightly (basically the specs on file via an FDA accession number with exact details of manufacturer involved). Domestically not sure what FDA hoops you have to jump through....

mark haflich 10-31-2013 09:34 PM

I would assume if you met the installation and operation requirements, the FDA could not discriminate between a commercial and non commercial venue.

Manic1! 11-02-2013 09:12 PM

I know the DJ/Pro audio world anything over .5mw requires a variance in the US. In Canada there are no rules.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/aboutfda/reportsmanualsforms/forms/ucm080788.pdf

http://www.laserist.org/Laserist/Safety_7.html

CinemaAndy 05-19-2014 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerTech0903 View Post

I thought I read the fda is pretty strict on these high powered lasers could you even buy one for your house if they were available?


FDA has approved laser projection for commercial use, as these laser projection theaters are, awesome. I think the RED RAY 4K laser projector is having a private theater offspring, this awaiting FDA approval for home use.


Craig Peer 05-20-2014 05:12 PM

AV Science will have a DCI laser projector available for home theater use soon - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1522097/new-player-coming-for-2k-dci-cinema

CINERAMAX 06-01-2014 06:36 PM

barco demo had roped off many seats directly in front of projector, 10kw is considered safe, no approval there.

left of image roped off 10 rows center top

CinemaAndy 06-09-2014 04:48 AM

I saw Barco's prototype laser projector and it's screening in my home town of Galveston, Texas at Moody Gardens. Moody Gardens was in the process of moving away from IMAX 70MM and installing Barco DCP projector's for there Giant screen, 6 stories tall GIANT screen. Most of the movies shown at Moody Gardens is mostly informative 3D short films. They do occasionally show theater releases in 2D and 3D 4K. But, this year they went with D3D and Christie Digital and it's line of 6P laser projectors.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmafk22NPAA  The Barco trade mark shown on the screen is 4 stories tall, that will give you a size reference to how huge the Screen is at Moody Gardens is. When the IMAX 70MM theater was originally built there in 1997 it was the largest screen in the USA and 2nd largest in the Americas. Today i think it still ranks 2nd or 3rd. It is still the largest indoor screen in Texas. I can not say this enough, it is huge. When you exit at the top of the house, you take a elevator down to the lobby. So this was no Mickey Mouse showing. A lot of faces in the video, seated in the house, are cinema chain owners who came to view the show. Even AMC Theater's second in charge  was there.

 

http://www.christiedigital.com/en-us/news-room/press-releases/Pages/Moody-Gardens-Chooses-Christie-for-6P-Laser-Projection.aspx Official Christie press release. The old system they were using was a quad Barco set up in projecting 4K 3D. Perfect picture. Can't wait to view the new set up.

 

I have other projects going on so i was unable to be included in this change over. If i can get behind the scenes i will provide pictures or maybe video, with permission of course, of the Christie Digital 6P laser projectors in use and during set up.

 

I was told by Christie they were getting FDA approval for HT or PT use of there commercial laser projectors and this should be by the end of June. Same with Barco. NEC, i was told, hit a hurdle with there laser projector in home use. No details there. Sony, well Sony likes to be the only name around, so i am sure they will show off what they got in the near future at there leisure.


Art Sonneborn 06-09-2014 03:44 PM

So the commercial units are direct laser illumination ?
Art

Craig Peer 06-09-2014 06:14 PM

The NEC is not direct laser. I don't know what the practical differences are picture wise though - sure threw an outstanding picture.

Art Sonneborn 06-09-2014 07:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

The NEC is not direct laser. I don't know what the practical differences are picture wise though - sure threw an outstanding picture.

I don't understand why there would be any issues with the FDA if the laser excites phosphor but doesn't itself illuminate the chip. Except for lamp life what advantages does the laser then have., color,uniformity,contrast, anything ?

Art

CINERAMAX 06-09-2014 10:37 PM

fancy color. The problem with Nec is that being Japanese they freak out of the use of class A product at home. nothing to do with laser: the japanese director of the dci side is a pussy whipped wimp. He walked out of a meeting with me over the class a fcc thing.

CINERAMAX 06-09-2014 10:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post

I saw Barco's prototype laser projector and it's screening in my home town of Galveston, Texas at Moody Gardens. Moody Gardens was in the process of moving away from IMAX 70MM and installing Barco DCP projector's for there Giant screen, 6 stories tall GIANT screen. Most of the movies shown at Moody Gardens is mostly informative 3D short films. They do occasionally show theater releases in 2D and 3D 4K. But, this year they went with D3D and Christie Digital and it's line of 6P laser projectors.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmafk22NPAA  The Barco trade mark shown on the screen is 4 stories tall, that will give you a size reference to how huge the Screen is at Moody Gardens is. When the IMAX 70MM theater was originally built there in 1997 it was the largest screen in the USA and 2nd largest in the Americas. Today i think it still ranks 2nd or 3rd. It is still the largest indoor screen in Texas. I can not say this enough, it is huge. When you exit at the top of the house, you take a elevator down to the lobby. So this was no Mickey Mouse showing. A lot of faces in the video, seated in the house, are cinema chain owners who came to view the show. Even AMC Theater's second in charge  was there.

http://www.christiedigital.com/en-us/news-room/press-releases/Pages/Moody-Gardens-Chooses-Christie-for-6P-Laser-Projection.aspx Official Christie press release. The old system they were using was a quad Barco set up in projecting 4K 3D. Perfect picture. Can't wait to view the new set up.

I have other projects going on so i was unable to be included in this change over. If i can get behind the scenes i will provide pictures or maybe video, with permission of course, of the Christie Digital 6P laser projectors in use and during set up.

I was told by Christie they were getting FDA approval for HT or PT use of there commercial laser projectors and this should be by the end of June. Same with Barco. NEC, i was told, hit a hurdle with there laser projector in home use. No details there. Sony, well Sony likes to be the only name around, so i am sure they will show off what they got in the near future at there leisure.

My congratulations to Moody Gardens for choosing Chistie Laser if only because the christie glasses will allow the audience to see their full mega screen, a problem those of us that saw the barco demo there could not enjoy due to barco's stupidly small glasses where the entire inner rim of the viewing spectacles is chromatically aberrated.

CinemaAndy 06-10-2014 01:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post


My congratulations to Moody Gardens for choosing Chistie Laser if only because the christie glasses will allow the audience to see their full mega screen, a problem those of us that saw the barco demo there could not enjoy due to barco's stupidly small glasses where the entire inner rim of the viewing spectacles is chromatically aberrated.

Yes they were incredibly small weren't they. Still better than red and blue lens.


LJG 06-10-2014 09:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

fancy color. The problem with Nec is that being Japanese they freak out of the use of class A product at home. nothing to do with laser: the japanese director of the dci side is a pussy whipped wimp. He walked out of a meeting with me over the class a fcc thing.

Peter:

You really need to not hold back and tell us what you really think, lol

CinemaAndy 06-10-2014 04:19 PM

Panasonic has there hybrid LED/Laser projector PT-RZ370U that is for home use. Or so they say.(RGB) R/B is LED G: Laser diode. Approx 20,000 hour life 3,500 lumens(they say) 1920x1080P will fill a 120 dia inch screen from 12.8 to 25.7 feet, manual focus and manual zoom contrast 10,000:1(They say)  $3,200.00 plus or minus. Have to fill out a form and pretty much release Panasonic from any liability form improper use or installation.

 

Why can't consumer projector manufactures adhere to SMPTE recommended Foot-Lambert and real contrast levels? That drives me crazy. Always has. Is that 3,500 lumens starring into the lens with the projector on, 3,500 lumens reaching the screen or 3,500 lumens reflected off the screen? Or in a dream it's 3,500 lumens.

 

OK had my professional rant for the day. 


donaldk 06-12-2014 04:29 PM

The Panasonics are all the same machines, only difference is the DMD 1080P vs WXGA, both available in a consumer and professional unit, all sporting 3500 lumens max. And it needed all of them. The professional vs consumer model difference is additional blending and rotation (software) on the 470.

There is a serious drop-off on the light source. When they first showed it at the ISE tradeshow a year and a half ago, I was told the 20K hours was for the full brightness mode, that he was assured by Panasonic Japan that it was so. However the website now features a brightness mode over lifetime curve diagram, and it is fairly steep, like with all LASER projectors sofar. And down to 50%. Not 70% or even the 5-10% down over life of LED projectors.

So, I say it is only usable for a few thousand hours!

SMPTE, first recommended higher brightness, but then found that incredibly low crankspeed introduced too much flicker, so they reduced the brightness.

Why always that limited vision of (Cinema, or Video) people that can't look beyond legacy!

Now introduce HDR with nice peaks at 5000 nits, with high spatial resolution 4K minimum, 8K preferred,.A very high frame rate, clean frames start at 1200? A new colour space that covers the full visible spectrum (so beyond Rec. 2020), and we start talking a great image. Work is being done on this as we speak, potentially more news at the IBC Conference this September

CinemaAndy 06-12-2014 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donaldk (Post 24916937)
The Panasonics are all the same machines, only difference is the DMD 1080P vs WXGA, both available in a consumer and professional unit, all sporting 3500 lumens max. And it needed all of them. The professional vs consumer model difference is additional blending and rotation (software) on the 470.

There is a serious drop-off on the light source. When they first showed it at the ISE tradeshow a year and a half ago, I was told the 20K hours was for the full brightness mode, that he was assured by Panasonic Japan that it was so. However the website now features a brightness mode over lifetime curve diagram, and it is fairly steep, like with all LASER projectors sofar. And down to 50%. Not 70% or even the 5-10% down over life of LED projectors.

The drop off is a real big factor in new light engines on projectors. I almost want to say, LED vs Laser, who will win.

donaldk 06-12-2014 04:50 PM

Andy, I spoke to some Delta Electronics developers at ISE, this winter and they are still targeting a LED projector specced at 2000 Lumens (let's see how far they get) for this coming winter. We were talking the rigorous drop-off on the Hybrid LASER projectors sofar, compared to LED, with its very limited drop-off.

BenQ (for wich they also do some design work) had this LASER engine and projector a few years ago, 20K hourse advertised, but the brochure clearly showed this was at half brightness only, and this was a class roomunit, so all of the initial 2000 lumens are badly needed. So only 10K hours, but that was with only 70% output left. So, perhaps two or three bulbs on usuable brightness.

CinemaAndy 06-12-2014 06:04 PM

Yes it is getting interesting. I have seen DCP laser and it is awesome. I know consumer units will be trailing, but there are some good projectors out there. It is just what is the best.

From what i am told the hard sell is "Laser" that makes some people nervous, as a guy told me a story about a woman asking if it would burn a hole thru the wall. Soft sale is "LED" John Q public knows the longevity of LED.

The one hang up is that the Laser diode will fail over time, as will the LED's. So it becomes a question, such as the Optoma HD91 LED 1080 16:9 projector, is it worth having to throw the projector away, or just buy a few lamps every year?

To me i see Laser Vs LED projectors. The Hybrid Laser/LED projectors thrown in the mix like a LG Blu-Ray - HD-DVD player.

The one thing that cannot be argued is the improvement in picture clarity and quality with Laser or LED light engines. Simply stunning.

donaldk 06-14-2014 02:29 PM

Well, the Hybrid LASER/LED projectors or some of the LASER/Phosphor still look like washed-out presentation projectors, wich they are. All in the selection of the yellowish green phosphor selection, wich is geared toward light-output.

The HD91 was first pulled-back from a show in Belgium, not being ready for public display. And when it did arrive it dissapointed, contrast was poor, black performance, and some other things were said to be poor, aswell. The 3K Euro price range is provided with stiff competition from Sony, Epson and JVC.

CinemaAndy 06-14-2014 05:57 PM

As for consumer projector's showing either LED or LED/Laser light engines, i have seen Panasonic and Optoma offerings. They looked OK to me, nothing spectacular but, i'm on the commercial side and not a whole lot of consumer projects amaze me much. I think the selling point would be the 20,000 to 30,000 hours between maintenance for most people. Just not sure about Laser though. A lot of people have how a Laser projector works severely backwards and misquoted. The one about the 50ish year old woman asking about a laser projector burning a hole in her wall still has me laughing.

NEC has a LED projector in testing that has a 100 percent LED light engine, in "pods" the pods are the size of a globe. I do not think NEC will ever lunch it's commercial Laser projector anytime soon.

I have seen Christie, Barco and Sony's Laser commerical projectors in action and they are awesome and my eyes were not burned out.

donaldk 06-14-2014 06:46 PM

And that's where they do not yet deliver. The LASER (Phosphor) units have to drastic a drop-off in output. And the Hybrid LASER/LED (Phosphor units have less of an drop-off issue but it is still there and the best warranty wass that of Casio, at a mere 6000 Hours.

For the same or even less money at that time one could get an Epson 1080P 3LCD projector with 2 or was it even 3 thousand hour bulb warranty, sometimes even an extra bulb at the time of purchase, so why go for an 1200x800 presentation projector, with a spinning phosphor wheel.

Only LG has had some more expensive 3 LED picoprojectors that didn't have the later diamond pixels structure PicoHD DMDs, that were interesting from a lifetime perspective,like all picoprojectors there were some coling issues but not to the extend of plastic lenses distoring, like some of the picoHD models.

In the budget section of AVS there is one person that knows all about the various small LED units, as he is an insomniac that works four (long) days a week, so the projector needs to be on for 16 hours a day on many days, so he keeps track of the power consumption variation among the various smal led units, as well as the other performance criteria. It has been a long time since I checked those threads,but those LGs were some of the more interesting ones. Of course from what I have seen they are still fairly dim, even at the specced 700 lumens. Same goes for the Vivitek.

CinemaAndy 06-14-2014 08:38 PM

What you said right there has always, at least to me, been the real hang up in consumer end projectors. Everybody sees a projector at a big box store for $399 or so and makes the commitment, gets home and sets it up, and has 100 inches of blurry or pastie colors, slams the name brand of the projector and goes out and buys a 50 inch flat screen, and comes here and rants how sorry consumer projectors are.

I will get off subject here. A few months ago i was in the same room as Jeff from Viewsonic. You know, i never, ever get to talk to anyone on the consumer side of projectors, not even with Sony or NEC as there commercial and consumer sides are different buildings. Me and Jeff had a long conversation about consumer projectors. As you probably know Viewsonic has a new hybrid 1080P projector that recently launched in North America. Getting approval from the FDA has taken years. Well a company that invests big money in a new product wants a return, they hate waiting for Government approval. The Laser and hybrid consumer projectors are being touted for there lamp life span, not the projector life span. What is not being talked about from the consumer projector manufactures is age defined light drop off, misleading lumens, and no end user serviceability part. Like the Optoma HD91, when it's light out put falls below a certain level, were the picture quality is unusable or annoying, or a Laser diode stops preforming, you toss the projector out the window. Since there is no bulb that can be replaced. So consumers who go this route will actually loose money in the long run from having to replace the whole projector compared to a bulb a year or so.

Another area i had a lengthy conversation with Jeff about, was the complete lack of support for a 21:9(actually 2:38.1) native ratio 2056x1080 or 2056x1440 home theater projector. The constant image height crowd in the consumer market has for years had to rely on expensive lens or just deal with black bars. The same technology that powers Panasonic, AOC, LG and Dell 21:9 monitors could be used in consumer projectors to get the movie on the screen with out black bars in 21:9 content and just black bars on the side during 16:9 or 4.3 content is viewed with the image height remaining the same. As i was told it was a simple software issue and a minor lens redesigned to get these results. Simple. But, not being done. I think a consumer projector that could do that would be a grand slam. The only reason people even put projectors in there homes is for the cinema experience.

And because of a complete lack of standards and guidelines on the consumer side, it ends up like the consumer 3D melt down that happened, with less than perfect results or most often a completely bad experience compared to the cinema, and way to many costly add ons to get the end result of what you saw at the cinema.

In my option consumer units should be focused on improving there products, longer bulb life, 21:9 viewing, and far easier bulb changes and less on LED, Laser or LED/Laser hybrids projectors. A LED or Laser 1080P projector shows no better quality than a bulb fired 1080P projector with either LcOs or DLP. And of course any projector is only as good as the screen it is projected on.

donaldk 06-16-2014 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CinemaAndy (Post 24975873)
What you said right there has always, at least to me, been the real hang up in consumer end projectors. Everybody sees a projector at a big box store for $399 or so and makes the commitment, gets home and sets it up, and has 100 inches of blurry or pastie colors, slams the name brand of the projector and goes out and buys a 50 inch flat screen, and comes here and rants how sorry consumer projectors are.

I will get off subject here. A few months ago i was in the same room as Jeff from Viewsonic. You know, i never, ever get to talk to anyone on the consumer side of projectors, not even with Sony or NEC as there commercial and consumer sides are different buildings. Me and Jeff had a long conversation about consumer projectors. As you probably know Viewsonic has a new hybrid 1080P projector that recently launched in North America. Getting approval from the FDA has taken years. Well a company that invests big money in a new product wants a return, they hate waiting for Government approval. The Laser and hybrid consumer projectors are being touted for there lamp life span, not the projector life span. What is not being talked about from the consumer projector manufactures is age defined light drop off, misleading lumens, and no end user serviceability part. Like the Optoma HD91, when it's light out put falls below a certain level, were the picture quality is unusable or annoying, or a Laser diode stops preforming, you toss the projector out the window. Since there is no bulb that can be replaced. So consumers who go this route will actually loose money in the long run from having to replace the whole projector compared to a bulb a year or so.

Another area i had a lengthy conversation with Jeff about, was the complete lack of support for a 21:9(actually 2:38.1) native ratio 2056x1080 or 2056x1440 home theater projector. The constant image height crowd in the consumer market has for years had to rely on expensive lens or just deal with black bars. The same technology that powers Panasonic, AOC, LG and Dell 21:9 monitors could be used in consumer projectors to get the movie on the screen with out black bars in 21:9 content and just black bars on the side during 16:9 or 4.3 content is viewed with the image height remaining the same. As i was told it was a simple software issue and a minor lens redesigned to get these results. Simple. But, not being done. I think a consumer projector that could do that would be a grand slam. The only reason people even put projectors in there homes is for the cinema experience.

And because of a complete lack of standards and guidelines on the consumer side, it ends up like the consumer 3D melt down that happened, with less than perfect results or most often a completely bad experience compared to the cinema, and way to many costly add ons to get the end result of what you saw at the cinema.

In my option consumer units should be focused on improving there products, longer bulb life, 21:9 viewing, and far easier bulb changes and less on LED, Laser or LED/Laser hybrids projectors. A LED or Laser 1080P projector shows no better quality than a bulb fired 1080P projector with either LcOs or DLP. And of course any projector is only as good as the screen it is projected on.


I have seen the Viewsonic a couple of years ago at ISE, but it did not really materialize. My impression was that it was like the Viewsonic LED projector, an OEM/ODM, probably from Optoma (Coretronics), that was the batch of '500 lumens clones'. Delay caused by delays in development at the ODM (see delays at optoma).

The Hybrid lifetimes are not immediately clear, but at least the info is available.

There has been an widescreenprojector, that died a silent death. There is no benefit, as most stuff is not 2.35:1 (like you said 2.37, 2.39, 1.85, 1.78). Anamorphic stretching has long been in consumer projectors. As it has been in TVs.

For me it is brightness, uniformity, contrast, colour, motion portrayal.

CINERAMAX 07-20-2014 10:56 AM

1 Attachment(s)
you would have to wade through the first 17 pages of a rgb laser cinema projector's manual to begin to understand the different classes of laser radiation exposure based on distance from projector.

I have started HERE an article on my blog on this same subject, the christie demo with 16,000 lumens worth of dual projector 6p laser light did not take any of the intimated precautions by this graph yet to be explained to me by execs.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1405875392


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