Dish DTVPal / Echostar TR40 digital to analog converter - Page 157 - AVS Forum
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post #4681 of 6754 Old 09-29-2008, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDiamant View Post

I recommend chat with Dr Dish (I think if the customer service ID in the chat includes "DrD", that's the right department. Even though they may not be familiar with the procedure, if you walk them through the need to create the account and tell them about the timer corruption problem, they'll set up the RA# and you can save a verbatim record of the chat in case you need it later. Worked for me (same situation re warranty and 3rd party purchase).

You may want to wait a day to see if they email you a shipping label.

John

I realize this is from last week (been away from the discussion for a while). I have worked up the patience to try again since I'm approaching the 90 day mark. Where is the live chat link? I only see the email tech@echostar address from the support section of the DTVpal website (www dtvpal com).

Thanks
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post #4682 of 6754 Old 09-29-2008, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avshelden View Post

I realize this is from last week (been away from the discussion for a while). I have worked up the patience to try again since I'm approaching the 90 day mark. Where is the live chat link? I only see the email tech@echostar address from the support section of the DTVpal website (www dtvpal com).

Thanks


Try this link. I think it's what you're looking for.

http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departme...formrf23.shtml
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post #4683 of 6754 Old 09-29-2008, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof View Post

Try this link. I think it's what you're looking for.

http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departme...formrf23.shtml

Thanks... either I got lucky, or they're getting nicer, although the initial response gave me some pause (bold below - my add)

Please wait while we find a representative to assist you...
You have been connected to (05-03) Charlene D.
(05-03) Charlene D: Thank you for choosing Dish Network the leader in DVR and HD. I will be happy to assist you today. Please give me 2-3 minutes to access your account and review the information you have already provided.
(05-03) Charlene D: I am sorry but you have reached Dishnetwork.com and you will need to access dishtv.com. We do not provide any service outside of the United States. Please end this chat session and contact the correct company for assistance with this. Thank you for contacting Dish Network Live Chat, have a great day!
(05-03) Charlene D: I’m sorry to here that you are having an issue. In order to resolve this issue, I will need to transfer you to our technical support department.
For future reference, you can always find troubleshooting for technical issues on our website, www.tech.dishnetwork.com.
Please standby while we find the next available representative to resolve this issue for you.
Thank you for your patience and have a nice day.
(05-03) Charlene D has left the session.
Please wait while we find an agent from the (24) CB Dr Dish department to assist you.
You have been connected to (24DrDcb) John Kn.
(24DrDcb) John Kn: Thank you for choosing Dish Network the leader in DVR and HD. I will be happy to assist you today. Please give me 2-3 minutes to access your account and review the information you have already provided.
(24DrDcb) John Kn: There's a few potential causes here
(24DrDcb) John Kn: Are the timers disappearing completely?
Andrew Shelden: I have had that occur a couple of times
(24DrDcb) John Kn: What are the problems you're citing other than that?
Andrew Shelden: some times the event timers appear to start 20 minutes late
Andrew Shelden: I have also had one timer stop early..it appears that the DTVPal unit turned off in the middle of one event
(24DrDcb) John Kn: Alright, it appears we will need to replace it, please confirm your address
Andrew Shelden: [address]
Andrew Shelden: I actually have 2 units
Andrew Shelden: both have the same software revisions (F101TCGH-N)
(24DrDcb) John Kn: You're now saying you have the problem on two separate units?
Andrew Shelden: yes
Andrew Shelden: again... these issues appear to have been well documented in a couple of on-line forums...
Andrew Shelden: the one where I have found most of my information is www.avforums.com
(24DrDcb) John Kn: Ok, I will send two, please bear with me 3-4 minutes
Andrew Shelden: ok - thanks
(24DrDcb) John Kn has left the session.
Your agent is experiencing technical difficulties. Please stand by while we re-establish contact or find a new agent...
All agents are currently busy. Please stand by.
Please wait while we find an agent from the (24) CB Dr Dish department to assist you.
You have been connected to (24DrDcb) Mark W.
(24DrDcb) Mark W: Thank you for chatting with Tier 2 Technical Support. This is Mark. opid dhb. I'll be glad to assist you. Please give me a minute to look over the information you have given me.
Andrew Shelden: Mark - I don't know what happened - I was working with John Kn...
(24DrDcb) Mark W: Yes I will be happy to assist you, please give me a few minutes to finish reading the notes
Andrew Shelden: ok
(24DrDcb) Mark W: Okay I see an RA already setup for your DTVPals, the chat must have dropped before he was able to tell you.
(24DrDcb) Mark W: This will be a replacement with shipping labels to return those to us.
Andrew Shelden: great...is there any date by which they need to be returned?
Andrew Shelden: I would prefer to return one at a time
(24DrDcb) Mark W: We like them back in around 10 days or so.
(24DrDcb) Mark W: That is okay
Andrew Shelden: since I tend to be slow about getting around to my errands...is there an "expiration" on the RMA that I need to be careful of (believe me I'm really bad :-)
(24DrDcb) Mark W: Not really,
Andrew Shelden: ok - thanks
(24DrDcb) Mark W: Can I help you with anything else?
Andrew Shelden: nope, I appreciate the support (this was much more helpful than when I called a month ago)
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post #4684 of 6754 Old 09-29-2008, 07:11 PM
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I think this had been mentioned before...but my F106 pal cut off right in the middle of Heroes tonight, and I'm not a happy camper.

I have the timers set up to do King of the Hill 5:25-6:05, Terminator TSCC 7:55-9:00, and Heroes 9:00-10:05. I hadnt planned on being home for Heroes, but fortunately I was and could watch it live, otherwise I would be even angrier that the last half was gone.

So as to not waste power, my inactivity timer is set for 4 hours. Short term, upping this to 5 hours could keep this from happening again, but should I really have to waste more of my electricity just because they didnt design the software properly, as on days when all I'm gonna record is King of the Hill the thing will be on until 10:25? I dont care if it costs me less than a penny per month...that should be my decision to make whether it stays on or not.

I will definately be calling Kevin Hutchison sometime tomorrow. The other issue with F106 is that it alters weekly timers (set within an hour past the program to be recorded) to 2.5 hours earlier than the set time? is that correct? does that happen after a download of the program guide...or is the change immediate?
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post #4685 of 6754 Old 09-29-2008, 07:25 PM
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has anyone opened the box and found the software to be hard wired or flashed? If it's flashed then we should be able to flash our own. Dish should start adding this feature to all the boxes right away, it would make more sense than returning them multiple times.

every email to dish starts this way "Thank you for your email. We understand these situations can be frustrating and apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused" my guess it's auto added to every email.
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post #4686 of 6754 Old 09-29-2008, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwiser View Post

I think this had been mentioned before...but my F106 pal cut off right in the middle of Heroes tonight, and I'm not a happy camper.

I have the timers set up to do King of the Hill 5:25-6:05, Terminator TSCC 7:55-9:00, and Heroes 9:00-10:05. I hadnt planned on being home for Heroes, but fortunately I was and could watch it live, otherwise I would be even angrier that the last half was gone.

So as to not waste power, my inactivity timer is set for 4 hours. Short term, upping this to 5 hours could keep this from happening again, but should I really have to waste more of my electricity just because they didnt design the software properly, as on days when all I'm gonna record is King of the Hill the thing will be on until 10:25? I dont care if it costs me less than a penny per month...that should be my decision to make whether it stays on or not.

I will definately be calling Kevin Hutchison sometime tomorrow. The other issue with F106 is that it alters weekly timers (set within an hour past the program to be recorded) to 2.5 hours earlier than the set time? is that correct? does that happen after a download of the program guide...or is the change immediate?

I realize that I am about the only one that is concerned about the left shift and the VBI problems, but would you mind asking him if those are even on the list of "known issues?"
Thanks very much.

Bob
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post #4687 of 6754 Old 09-29-2008, 08:12 PM
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DISH Network Online Chat You will get transferred to Tier 2 Technical Support

I entered the following description of my problem in the describe the technical issue field:
Two DTVPals with F101TCGH-N software missing timers or triggering them wrong.

By stating that, I didn't have to get into any further detail as you can see from the chat below. I did order my DTVPals directly from DISH, so I had an account number to submit for the online chat. The process took around five minutes.


(24DrDcb) Mark W: Thank you for chatting with Tier 2 Technical Support. This is Mark. opid dhb. I'll be glad to assist you. Please give me a minute to look over the information you have given me.
(24DrDcb) Mark W: I am sorry that you are having that issue, I will be happy to assist you.
(24DrDcb) Mark W: We do need to get you Pals replaced,


Amiga: Well, I am confused about one thing...

(24DrDcb) Mark W: go ahead

Amiga: I've read that all the issues/problems with the DTVPals are still not resolved with the 106 software. I am happy to exchange them at a later date, but I am worried about the 90 day warranty.

(24DrDcb) Mark W: I cannot not advise as to how long some of the issues may need to be completed
(24DrDcb) Mark W: the timers do seem to be resolved now though
(24DrDcb) Mark W: May I get your shipping address?


Amiga: I understand that, but is DISH Network going to exchange these converters after our 90 day warranties?

(24DrDcb) Mark W: And I cannot extend the warranty

Amiga: 9601 S MERIDIAN BLVD, ENGLEWOOD CO 80112-5905 Little joke, this is not my address, google it!

(24DrDcb) Mark W: I do not know if any decision had been made on that
(24DrDcb) Mark W: just a mnute please


Amiga: Are prepaid return shipping labels going to be included?

(24DrDcb) Mark W: Just a minute please

Amiga: Sure

(24DrDcb) Mark W: Yes there should be prepaid return labels
(24DrDcb) Mark W: When you receive your equipment please read the instructional letter first. If you do not ship us the malfunctioning equipment within ten days after you receive the replacement unit, your DISH Network account will be charged. Some equipment is excluded and need not be returned. Follow the instructions enclosed. If your equipment is returned and our testing department determines that there is customer damage, the warranty will be void. Please return only the malfunctioning equipment. Please write your RA number on the outside of the box. We are shipping your equipment by UPS BLUE 2ND DAY and you should receive it in 2 days.


Amiga: Great, thank you.

(24DrDcb) Mark W: Your Ra numbers are 29502XXX and 29502XXX
(24DrDcb) Mark W: Can I help you with anything else?


Amiga: No, that will be it.

(24DrDcb) Mark W: Have I handled everything to your satisfaction?

Amiga: Yes

(24DrDcb) Mark W: Thank you for being so co-operative throughout the chat session and also for providing me an opportunity to assist you today.


Well, I guess we had all better swap these boxes out soon. Use Date Calculator to see if you are within your 90 days. I did this on the 91st day of my order, mind you, not the day the converters hit my door.
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post #4688 of 6754 Old 09-29-2008, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwiser View Post

...The other issue with F106 is that it alters weekly timers (set within an hour past the program to be recorded) to 2.5 hours earlier than the set time? is that correct? does that happen after a download of the program guide...or is the change immediate?

3.5 hours earlier, and the change can be seen right away -- as soon as you set the timer you can view the time shift in the event timer list.
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post #4689 of 6754 Old 09-30-2008, 06:02 AM
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Please wait while we find a representative to assist you. In order to ensure we are providing you with the highest level of customer satisfaction, this conversation will be recorded.
You have been connected to (24DrDcb) Jerry D.
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: Thank you for choosing Dish Network the leader in DVR and HD. I will be happy to assist you today. Please give me 2-3 minutes to access your account and review the information you have already provided.
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: How may I assist you today?
Don: There are so many problems with these DTVPAL's, I would like to exchange them for ones with newer software.
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: I am sorry, but we haven't launched any dtvpals with any newer software yet.
Don: Not so, if you look at the AVS forum you will see F106 is the latest version.
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: But the issues that you have listed here are issues we are still having with the dtvpals, so exchanging will not resolve these issues.
Don: What do I do if the Warranty expires while I am waiting for the new software?
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: If it is a known issue like the ones that we are aware of, when those issues are corrected, there will be a process in place to take care of purchasers of that equipment.
Don Harris: Thank you, can you tell me how I can save or copy this chat for my future reference.
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: Copy and paste onto a word document would be the best way.
Don : Thank you
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: You're very welcome.

Some of us with warranty expiration dates coming up can sleep a wee bit better. Perhaps other forum members will question the Chat support about the warranty and see if we can get a consensus of opinion, as you all know not all tech representatives respond with the same answers.
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post #4690 of 6754 Old 09-30-2008, 10:42 AM
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Just got off the phone with Kevin and he's gonna look into the two issues we've seen with F106. Unfortunately, the inactivity timer issue may not be resolvable, in that from what he said, it's supposed to take priority over timed events.

We talked about disabling or extending the inactivity timer and as I said, to me that seems a bit counterproductive. I even told Kevin that turning off the IT kind of defeats the purpose of unattended recording. I should hear back from him in a few hours though, if not tomorrow morning sometime.

He dropped a little news about the TR-50 that has got me interested. Supposedly, it has a USB port as well as a wireless card so that information can be uploaded or downloaded. Aside from making it easier to transfer material to ones PC, if users do have any issues with software on it like they are with the Pal, they can put a patch up on the web and users can download it without having to do any of this exchange stuff. Sounds encouraging.
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post #4691 of 6754 Old 09-30-2008, 11:18 AM
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nwiser - I quoted your TR50 info to the TR-50 thread. Interesting info, thanks!

Enjoying crystal clear TV for free.


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post #4692 of 6754 Old 09-30-2008, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwiser View Post

Unfortunately, the inactivity timer issue may not be resolvable, in that from what he said, it's supposed to take priority over timed events.

That's one of the dumbest statements from Dish Network I've heard yet. Why on earth would you make it operate like that? It's clearly an attempt to avoid another round of exchanges.
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post #4693 of 6754 Old 09-30-2008, 01:34 PM
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Is it wrong that I don't believe the names of these chat reps are really Charlene, John, Mark and Jerry?
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post #4694 of 6754 Old 09-30-2008, 02:10 PM
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OK. I give up. I had developed a contact at Dish (a TSR supervisor) through all of this fiasco and I bit the bullet to day and called him (he was actually at his desk!) to find out anything I could.

Long story short...he said the only active firmware versions were F101,102 and 103, he claimed to know nothing of the F106, but he assured me that my replacements would have the newest version.

FYI...the left shift is NOT on the list of known issues (and likely will never be) and the VBI issue is considered a broadcaster issue by Dish and will likely not be addressed in any future updates. Also, his information was that the timer issues were fixed.

Maybe his information is totally wrong as we all know that can and does happen with Dish, but I just do not care anymore...this whole thing has come to an end for me...I feel Dish Network will NEVER make this box 100% right according to most of the forum members expectations--at least not to mine.

I will take the replacements I am getting and call it a day...Dish wins

Bob
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post #4695 of 6754 Old 09-30-2008, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post

Is it wrong that I don't believe the names of these chat reps are really Charlene, John, Mark and Jerry?

I talked to a DISH CSR today at some overseas call center who said her name was "Paris" (sure it was ). After spending 10 minutes telling her my problems (with timers) she transfered me to tier one tech support in the U.S. That CSR said that she did not have any notes on timer problems on the DTVPal and insisted that I did not have any DTVPals because she could not find them on my account (I had them added to my account in July). After going round and round with this (clearly) untrained person I INSISTED that she transfer me to tier two support. That person (Mary in the U.S.) did find them on my account and did say that my problem was a "known issue". She said that she will send out the return labels to get them replaced. Overall, I spent 55 minutes (a lot of that time on hold while the CSR looked for solutions in their DTVPal database) and, hopefully, the replacements will be better than the ones I have that miss timers almost daily.

Bill R
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post #4696 of 6754 Old 09-30-2008, 04:10 PM
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I did the online chat thing today and got the following from the CSR:

(24DrDcb) Timothy D: how long have you had the Dtv pals?

(He did ask how long I have had them, as that is when I received them. But the packingslip from cheap digital converters says, Date Ordered: Thursday 26 June, 2008)

Jennifer: let me check for you
(24DrDcb) Timothy D: ok
Jennifer: 07/10/2008

(24DrDcb) Timothy D: you are just in the 90 day warranty of the Dtv pals, I can create a exchange for them but a proof of purchase will need to be provided when they are sent in for exchange,

(24DrDcb) Timothy D: you will be just sending the units themselves with the proof of purchase.

Jennifer: Are prepaid return shipping labels going to be included?

(24DrDcb) Timothy D: this is a post receipt exchange, you send us the dtv pal then we send one back to you, you decide on how you want to ship them to use & we will use the same process of shipping it back to you

(24DrDcb) Timothy D: I have checked with two of my supervisor's & they say we do not send replacement Dtv pals out first & we do not provide the shipping of the Dtv pals to use, as I mentioned before, we do pay for the shipping of the Dtv pal to you as the same method you used to ship it to us.

Jennifer: And hopefully will have the F106 software
(24DrDcb) Timothy D: I can not answer what software they will be sent out with
Jennifer: Well the F101 boxes have faulty software
(24DrDcb) Timothy D: I understand that but I do not have the information to answer your question, I am sorry
Jennifer: If I have problems with them will there be a possible replacement ?
(24DrDcb) Timothy D: it would be possible depending on the issue
Jennifer: If I had the same problems
(24DrDcb) Timothy D: yes

As you can see, that was NOT really the outcome I was hoping for. I really think they should all get on the same page with the returns and how some CSR's issue a return label first, and others tell you to send the convertors in first for exchange.

Jennifer
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post #4697 of 6754 Old 09-30-2008, 04:56 PM
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I just purchased a TR-40 with the serial number R16475374XX. How do I know what software version I have? Thanks for your help.
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post #4698 of 6754 Old 09-30-2008, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eatougrm View Post

I just purchased a TR-40 with the serial number R16475374XX. How do I know what software version I have? Thanks for your help.

Push the "System Info" button on the remote control and it will come up on screen.

I love the digital transition. The voices in my head just say 0 and 1 now.
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post #4699 of 6754 Old 10-01-2008, 06:33 AM
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when they said send a mailing label did they mean email or snail mail?
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post #4700 of 6754 Old 10-01-2008, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgodave View Post

Rock On...Survivors. You folks march by your own drummer and more should too.

Yea those people are very independent. But why do they cry so much about losing the ability to mooch OTA (i.e. not buying any products that pay for their "free" shows with advertising)?

To stay on topic, can I buy one of these units with F106 and depend on it to record with my analog tuner DVR/DVDR (even if it's only set on a daily basis)? Does the TVGOS actually work?

I'm controlling an Insignia DTA with a IR Blaster right now and everything is great. But come Feb 09, I won't be getting analog TVGOS and I want something I can program. I can wait it out, hopefully they'll be something better out by then.
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post #4701 of 6754 Old 10-01-2008, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagger666 View Post

when they said send a mailing label did they mean email or snail mail?

I was told that I will receive them by mail and boxes to return them in (I have several to return that I purchased for me and two of my neighbors). We all bought them to use with the timer feature which is not working as advertised.

I asked about upgrading them (I offered to pay the difference in price) to the DTVPal Plus but, after checking, the CSR said that was not possible.

Bill R
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post #4702 of 6754 Old 10-01-2008, 08:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwiser View Post

I have the timers set up to do King of the Hill 5:25-6:05, Terminator TSCC 7:55-9:00, and Heroes 9:00-10:05...... the last half was gone. So as to not waste power, my inactivity timer was set for 4 hours [5:25 to 9:25]. Short term: upping this to 5 hours could keep this from happening again, but should I really have to waste more of my electricity just because they didnt design the software properly....

Leaving the box on for an extra hour is only 1/20th of a penny. Even if you left the box run all night, it's still only 1/2 a penny.

I can't believe you're so incensed about such a trivially-small amount of money. I leave my box turned-on all the time - 35 cents per month. I don't think it's any big deal. (I waste more money buying a candy bar that I should not eat.)
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post #4703 of 6754 Old 10-01-2008, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhufnagel View Post

...why do they cry so much about losing the ability to mooch OTA (i.e. not buying any products that pay for their "free" shows with advertising)?...

Television in the States has always been available over the air for free. If you choose to buy an advertised product or not is besides the point. Nobody is mooching. That's just the way TV is in the States.

If you're only familiar with having to pay for TV by way of cable or satellite, you have my sympathies. You've apparently come along late in the game and have limited experience in this matter.

TV in the states has always been available over the air for free, and people who get their TV this way aren't moochers. They're viewers. There is no other point of view, because that's how it is and how it's always been.
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post #4704 of 6754 Old 10-01-2008, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by electrictroy View Post

Leaving the box on for an extra hour is only 1/20th of a penny. Even if you left the box run all night, it's still only 1/2 a penny.

I can't believe you're so incensed about such a trivially-small amount of money. I leave my box turned-on all the time - 35 cents per month. I don't think it's any big deal. (I waste more money buying a candy bar that I should not eat.)



Mmmm...

Candy....

Peanut butter cups in the kitchen cabinet.....

*ahem*

Ummm...I can sort of see the point about not wanting to leave it on all the time, but for a slightly different reason. We know the boxes can get hot. I'm not too crazy about having my TV tuner burn my place down while I'm out.

I'm not even too crazy about the idea of a fire starting while I'm there, either.

(Let me clarify that I still have been tending to leave the thing on all the time. Yeah, I know. I'm asking for trouble and obviously know better.)
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post #4705 of 6754 Old 10-01-2008, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post

Is it wrong that I don't believe the names of these chat reps are really Charlene, John, Mark and Jerry?

Is it wrong that I don't believe YOUR real name is "Ziggy"?
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post #4706 of 6754 Old 10-01-2008, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof View Post

Television in the States has always been available over the air for free. If you choose to buy an advertised product or not is besides the point. Nobody is mooching. That's just the way TV is in the States.

If you're only familiar with having to pay for TV by way of cable or satellite, you have my sympathies. You've apparently come along late in the game and have limited experience in this matter.

TV in the states has always been available over the air for free, and people who get their TV this way aren't moochers. They're viewers. There is no other point of view, because that's how it is and how it's always been.

You are far off base. I don't have any pay tv service, and haven't since I left my parents home 30 years ago. I rather pay $30 a month for high speed internet. But I'm not complaining about missing any stations because of the analog to digital switch. I went out and bought a rotary roof top antenna and HDTV's to be ready for the future. My only problem is using a DVR/DVDR that has analog TVGOS. I'm not whining about it though, and I'll find a way around it.

I see plenty of complaints about the transision on the CECB forums. Nothing in life is free. All this whining about losing things that you never paid for in the first place is pretty sad.
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post #4707 of 6754 Old 10-01-2008, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhufnagel View Post

Yea those people are very independent. But why do they cry so much about losing the ability to mooch OTA (i.e. not buying any products that pay for their "free" shows with advertising)?

If you live in England you have to pay a TV tax but you get commercial free television. In the states OTA is free but has commercials. But you can pay for cable or satellite and you still get commercials.

So if you feel like a mooch then you better buy some of the stuff you see on TV like this. And don't forget to ask your doctor about Cialis, Viagra, Levitra or whatever they are pushing.

One more thing. If so see a Ameritrade commercial on TV. You might want to hold off buying what they are selling for a while.
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post #4708 of 6754 Old 10-01-2008, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mhufnagel View Post

But I'm not complaining about missing any stations because of the analog to digital switch. I went out and bought a rotary roof top antenna and HDTV's to be ready for the future. My only problem is using a DVR/DVDR that has analog TVGOS. I'm not whining about it though, and I'll find a way around it.

I see plenty of complaints about the transision on the CECB forums. Nothing in life is free. All this whining about losing things that you never paid for in the first place is pretty sad.

Some people around here just don't get that....
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post #4709 of 6754 Old 10-01-2008, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof View Post

TV in the states has always been available over the air for free, and people who get their TV this way aren't moochers. They're viewers. There is no other point of view, because that's how it is and how it's always been.

You must have a very short memory, or you don't mind tainting your credibility.

Just a few days ago you were obviously made aware of other points of view on this subject when you read and replied to posts and answered
my reply to your PM. I also supplied you with a link that successfully disputed your point of view. Maybe you didn't have time to read it.

There are other points of view. TV in the states has always been paid for by the masses.
Other than PBS, OTA TV and radio is not a gift or charity, it is a for profit business.
The people's money flows into business's advertising budgets and then to the ad producers, content providers and broadcasters.
Hidden costs doesn't equal free. And of course PBS is obviously pay TV. Maybe you don't contribute and consider it free, but others do pay.

The proof is in following the money trail. The fact is, money flow starts when it comes out of the public's pockets and ends up paying for the broadcasters being able to provide TV and radio.

The difference between OTA TV and cable/satellite is, with pay TV you are still paying a hidden cost and the extra cost for content and delivery.
For example, right now I'm enjoying watching MLB playoffs on pay TV, not being broadcast on OTA TV.

When you buy a new car, are you not paying for the worker's wages, health care insurance, pension and the automaker's advertising budget?

I realize that many people in this forum may have never bought a new car. That was just an easy to understand example of hidden costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrictroy View Post

My market has virtually no subchannels, and what's there is basically worthless in my opinion ...

Free TV - You get what you pay for?
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post #4710 of 6754 Old 10-01-2008, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhufnagel View Post

I'm not whining about it though..

Then you probably don't belong here.

If you don't mind spending the money, and know that you have to give something to really get something nowadays (), there's the TR-50 which is supposed to be out by Christmas.

Then you won't have to deal with IR blasters, or buggy external tuners at all.

I'd still keep your older HDD recorders around though, because the TR-50 will undoubtedly not be anywhere equal to the quality of those things (if you're going by the Pal/TR-40 as an example).
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