Dish DTVPal / Echostar TR40 digital to analog converter - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 6754 Old 05-28-2008, 12:30 PM
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I don't think the timer will be as fancy as the DVR-921 Timers I posted above.

That's right I said timer as in for a SINGLE EVENT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dish Network's DTVPal.com View Post

Event timer
Set a timer to turn your DTVPal on and tuned to the desired channel before your favorite show starts playing

The DTVPal has no plural timers we are all building the DTVPal into something it isn't.
I see this timer as very simple with two to three options to set.
  1. The Channel
  2. The Start Time - you don't really need a stop time this is not a recording device and it saves memory
  3. OPTIONAL - a repeat function
Having a single event timer is also very strong evidence that the DTVPal
is not using the TVGuide System and is using PSIP

If we want the possibility to have more events from a CECB then we should be thinking of using the Tivax STB-T9 and a serial cable.


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post #452 of 6754 Old 05-28-2008, 12:41 PM
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Why does the fact it only does channel, time, duration limit the DTVPal to a single timer ? RIddle me this - isn't this the same thing that VCRs did for so many years, yet they had up to 8 "timers" ?

Dish DBS receivers that have VCR timers also have "more than 1 timer" as well - do you really think Dish would go backwards on this ?

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

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post #453 of 6754 Old 05-28-2008, 12:53 PM
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I think all the friggin speculation needs to stop and just wait until someone gets thier hands on a box. You'd think we're discussing the second coming here.. It's a freakin $40 coupon box for goodness sake.

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post #454 of 6754 Old 05-28-2008, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

NONE OF THESE IMAGES ARE FROM THE DTVPal
They just show how Dish Network has implemented them in the DVR-921



About the EPG

I don't see to up to seven days
I also don't know if this is a TVGuide or PSIP driven EPG as there is no TVGuide Logo.

This is much easier on the eyes than the TVGO. Better colors and no friggin' ads. Sign me up for one!
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post #455 of 6754 Old 05-28-2008, 03:32 PM
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I have never seen a VCR that advertised a "event timer" - Singular
VCRs I thought were all advertised as having "timers" - Plural

I don't even think the Dish Receivers that you are referring to were ever advertised as having a "event timer"
it was most likely also advertised as "timers"

Unless you had a VCR Plus+ that used GemStar's TVGuide codes all VCRs had to be set using manual timers

All this "friggin speculation" was started when we first heard of the TR-40 and most news was all
rumour/speculation nothing much offical that anyone payed close attention to.

I have been trying to stop the "friggin speculation" now that we have a official site with offical specifications and features for the DTVPal.

Yes in this picture the TR-40 was listed as having VCR timers
Last I checked it is no longer the TR-40 and it is no longer listed as having VCR timers
but is now the DTVPal and listed as having a "event timer"

I would think that the offical DTVPal site would be the best source for any DTVPal information to end the "friggin speculations" and get the offical facts.
I will therefore accept what Dish Network has posted in these features.

Until one of us gets a actual product and can say I was wrong and need to owe you guys an apology, I will quit posting anything about the DTVPal.


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post #456 of 6754 Old 05-28-2008, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

Until one of us gets a actual product and can say I was wrong and need to owe you guys an apology,

Relax Malouff, not intended at you..And hopefully you won't need to do so.

But I personally can't wait to see those who will bash this $40 coupon box if (or dare I say when) it doesn't live up to the hype and speculation in this thread. At least I'm basing that on how most all of the other "coupon" boxes have been bashed by some here who want a Cadillac for the price of a Yugo.

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post #457 of 6754 Old 05-28-2008, 05:33 PM
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Thanks bdfox18doe for the encouragement and agree I was getting people very riled up in this thread.

I am also going to start another speculation that has no proof/merit
then run for the hills since you pulled me back in.

I can see why Dish Network did not release this box for the "early bird" adopters.
There were less coupons in circulation and it didn't live up to the hype it would have been reported fast and
the DTVPal would have become nothing more than a footnote unlike what it is now.

By releasing in June there will be lots of coupons in circulation and by holding off they have built up a lot of curiosity and intrigue from potential buyers.

I am sure they will sell all of there first shipments by doing this.
Their real worry is once the reviews start pouring in.

bdfox18doe (Bob) for my other personal speculation regarding the CECBs memory and EPG performance.
I am of course referring to the amount of memory required to contain all the PSIP data for each station and display it.
Can you tell me if it has any merit?


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post #458 of 6754 Old 05-28-2008, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

Having a single event timer is also very strong evidence that the DTVPal is not using the TVGuide System and is using PSIP

My first digital receiver, 5 years ago, was a Samsung on which I could schedule multiple recording events, and IT USED THE PSIP DATA (which was unfortunate, due to conflicts that would arise because different stations did not have a consistent time signal)...

Frankly, I don't think we know what kind of EPG this unit will use, nor is there any evidence that the kind it uses is related to how many "events" one can schedule.

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post #459 of 6754 Old 05-28-2008, 06:32 PM
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My VCR manual says "the timer" allows me to schedule up to 6 "programs." I don't think the "s" or lack of it is significant. Few people use English with precision these days. Anyway, the E* letter requesting the end of beta testers said they'd be checking "timers."
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post #460 of 6754 Old 05-28-2008, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

I would think that the offical DTVPal site would be the best source for any DTVPal information to end the "friggin speculations" and get the offical facts.
I will therefore accept what Dish Network has posted in these features.

It seems the feature list is like a page from the Bible -- the reader is free to interpret what is written however they may choose to.

I see nothing in saying a unit has an "event timer" (singular) that precludes it's being able to schedule multiple events via that timer.

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post #461 of 6754 Old 05-29-2008, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

I also don't know if this is a TVGuide or PSIP driven EPG as there is no TVGuide Logo.

Just for the record, there is one on my Dish 322 tuner's guide.
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post #462 of 6754 Old 05-29-2008, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

All this "friggin speculation" was started when we first heard of the TR-40 and most news was all
rumour/speculation nothing much offical that anyone payed close attention to.

I have been trying to stop the "friggin speculation" now that we have a official site with offical specifications and features for the DTVPal.

These specifications are still not all that clear, so what you're doing is also "friggin' speculation" by your interpretations of it. Let it go already. Just relax until the box comes out.
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post #463 of 6754 Old 05-29-2008, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

bdfox18doe (Bob) for my other personal speculation regarding the CECBs memory and EPG performance.I am of course referring to the amount of memory required to contain all the PSIP data for each station and display it.Can you tell me if it has any merit?

I don't think the STB's memory capacity would have any effect on reception,as most of that is done in the tuner can.

The most complete implementation of PSIP based EPG I have seen was in the venerable RCA DTC-100. However, it isn;t much good these days as it does not handle dynamic PSIP and the EIT/ETT table shifts that occur, and flashes to black during table shifts.I saw that unit when it was a pile of PCB's in the back of a van during CEMA/USSB antenna testing in 1997. The designers told me it had seperate memories for satellite and OTA, and took a LOT of memory to handle the EPG for both for all channels. So, I suspect the poor implementation of EPG in these "cheeseboxes" is partially due to a memory cost savings. And yes,that could affect the response and performance of the box.

We as broadcasters are leaglly required do do full and complete EPG for 12 hours, and the FCC is mulling having us make it accurate to real time for program run overs, which is a nightmare. And yes, I know there are some slacker broadcasters out there that are non-compliant andneed to get their act together.
But, I think if we are required to do it properly then the mfg's should be too..but in reality I doubt the FCC has the legal authority to do so.

I've worked with one mfg on develeopment of their PSIP generator for a long time, and have a lot of time and effort involved in making it work properly.
So I have no sympathy for those broadcasters who are too lazy to do so, and annoyed by receiver mfg's who shortchange the consumer in this area.

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post #464 of 6754 Old 05-29-2008, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emdiva View Post

So I, like everybody else, want one of the TR40/DTVpal boxes. I held off preordering and now it looks like the window has passed. My coupon expires June 6th. Is there any chance I could go to Radio Shack or another retailer, buy another converter box, and then when the DTVpal box comes in, exchange the box I bought for that one? Does anybody know what the exchange policies on the boxes are and/or what retailers will have the DTVpal boxes in stock?

Ditto. Anyone know?
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post #465 of 6754 Old 05-29-2008, 09:21 AM
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I don't believe they have said where these would be sold, or when. The online retailers saying the week of June 16 was a surprise. DTVPal.com says end of June, but doesn't say where, other than their online site. The original Jan. press release talked about the possibility of distributing through Dish and Sling stores, but I have seen nothing more. Your best bet, given the tight timing, would be to have a neighbor order more coupons for you.
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post #466 of 6754 Old 05-29-2008, 01:25 PM
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Solidsignal raised the price again, now it's $52.
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post #467 of 6754 Old 05-29-2008, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post

I don't think the STB's memory capacity would have any effect on reception,as most of that is done in the tuner can.

The most complete implementation of PSIP based EPG I have seen was in the venerable RCA DTC-100. However, it isn;t much good these days as it does not handle dynamic PSIP and the EIT/ETT table shifts that occur, and flashes to black during table shifts.I saw that unit when it was a pile of PCB's in the back of a van during CEMA/USSB antenna testing in 1997. The designers told me it had seperate memories for satellite and OTA, and took a LOT of memory to handle the EPG for both for all channels. So, I suspect the poor implementation of EPG in these "cheeseboxes" is partially due to a memory cost savings. And yes,that could affect the response and performance of the box.

We as broadcasters are leaglly required do do full and complete EPG for 12 hours, and the FCC is mulling having us make it accurate to real time for program run overs, which is a nightmare. And yes, I know there are some slacker broadcasters out there that are non-compliant andneed to get their act together.
But, I think if we are required to do it properly then the mfg's should be too..but in reality I doubt the FCC has the legal authority to do so.

I've worked with one mfg on develeopment of their PSIP generator for a long time, and have a lot of time and effort involved in making it work properly.
So I have no sympathy for those broadcasters who are too lazy to do so, and annoyed by receiver mfg's who shortchange the consumer in this area.

Memory is "a whole lot cheaper" today than it was in 1997.
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post #468 of 6754 Old 05-29-2008, 09:52 PM
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Looking at the specifications for these CECBs it certainly doesn't look like they spent very much on memory but maybe having more would have been overkill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

Not all boxes list the memory but we have seen things like:
Flash Memory 2 MB...................Memory 32 MB - CoShip (LG SoC based)
Flash Memory 16Mb (still 2MB)....Memory 256Mb (still 32MB) - Avion (ST Microelectronics SoC based)
Flash Memory 2 MB...................Memory 16 MB - AccessHD (Zoran SoC based)
Flash Memory 512KB (0.5MB)......Memory 16 MB - Tatung (? SoC based)

I would think that the System on Chip (SoC) is what does the decoding of the DTV signal and extracts the PSIP information.
Like any processor it has a limited cache and uses Memory to store then information.

All I was saying was is that 32MB or 16MB does not seem like a lot to store the PSIP information (I don't know how large they typically range)
and also provide a buffer to decode the DTV signal (I don't know if it needs a buffer but sounds logical to me).

I have heard that if you press guide that you only see the current channel but if you flip channels you can see the information for both channels as the PSIP data for both channels was downloaded by viewing both channels.

This sounds like if the PSIP guide information is getting saved to Memory to me and not being decoded every time you press the guide button.

These are again just my personal speculations regarding performance when a extended electronic program guide is used
versus the simplistic Now/Next EPG used by Zenith, Insignia, and MicroProse.

I was told they used a Now/Next because more EPG data tends to slow the box down.


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post #469 of 6754 Old 05-30-2008, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

The original Jan. press release talked about the possibility of distributing through Dish and Sling stores, but I have seen nothing more.

Which of these Dish or Sling stores would be on the NTIA approved list? A 50-mile radius search from my zip produced a list of 13 which were all either WalMart, RadioShack, or Sears. With the nearest urban community 65 miles away, the list expands 10x, adding BestBuy and CircuitCity to the big boxes. The big boxes seem have already committed to a product line-up. So who is left to sell the DTVPal?

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post #470 of 6754 Old 05-30-2008, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgcss View Post

Memory is "a whole lot cheaper" today than it was in 1997.

Yep.. but when you're trying to make a box as cheaply as possible..cutting maybe what.. 32 cents??? for memory here and 4 cents there..across 100,000units it adds up.

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post #471 of 6754 Old 05-30-2008, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

All I was saying was is that 32MB or 16MB does not seem like a lot to store the PSIP information (I don't know how large they typically range) .

PSIP data is sent to me as an XML file containing 7 days data at a time.
For WCCB here, the file size for analog and 3 digital channels is 412k. Not all of that data gets pushed to the receivers, and various receivers don't read or store all of the data. There are 9 stations here. Assuming worst case back of napkin, that's about 3.5 mb of information for 7 days EPG.

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post #472 of 6754 Old 05-30-2008, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by equivocal View Post

Which of these Dish or Sling stores would be on the NTIA approved list? A 50-mile radius search from my zip produced a list of 13 which were all either WalMart, RadioShack, or Sears. With the nearest urban community 65 miles away, the list expands 10x, adding BestBuy and CircuitCity to the big boxes. The big boxes seem have already committed to a product line-up. So who is left to sell the DTVPal?

We don't know what commitments stores have made, I think they started with the few boxes actually being made. I saw a reminder for stores to keep the list of brands they sell current with the NTIA. SlingMedia has a partners list online, except for RS, I saw the stores you mention. It's speculation about what store will carry it, when they get it in stock, especially with E* starting out with online retailers. I hope you're buying a product you can live with, and not counting on that exchange plan.
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post #473 of 6754 Old 05-30-2008, 03:04 PM
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With all the controversy over number of days for the EPG and does it have a timer or timers. note the following from Echostar's introductory release dated Jan 7, 2008:

"....Other features include up to a seven-day electronic programming guide (EPG), program search, parental locks and VCR auto-tune timers.... "

For the full release see their financial website:

http://sats.client.shareholder.com/r...leaseID=284881

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post #474 of 6754 Old 05-31-2008, 01:49 AM
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That's meaningless at this point - that's no longer the same unit and specs are always subject to change since the unit is not even out yet. Besides, the definition of timers and their implementation/usefulness is very subjective. As was mentioned, lets just wait till the thing actually comes out to see what it does.
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post #475 of 6754 Old 06-02-2008, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

According to the mgr. at the Burnsville "Ultimate Electronics" they will carry the TR-40, but not the TR-50. Not sure about other stores.

I just spoke with the store manager of my local B&M Ultimate Electronics and he confirmed that he heard that the "EchoStar/Dish Converter Boxes" would be arriving in store in "a week or two." He suggested calling back on Friday evenings after the weekly truck had been unloaded. He did not know the model number, but I informed him that it could only be the DTVPal or the EchoStar TR-40. He agreed that there was only one model made by EchoStar/Dish.

Ultimate Electronics is a chain of consumer electronics stores in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Nevada, New Mexico, and Oklahoma.

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post #476 of 6754 Old 06-05-2008, 02:07 PM
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I made an order for the box through online posted here. My question is what if later on they don't have it and the day on the card already expired?
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post #477 of 6754 Old 06-05-2008, 02:59 PM
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I made an order for the box through online posted here. My question is what if later on they don't have it and the day on the card already expired?

That is a good question...there has been some reference here or elsewhere to a system where suppliers report the card orders with a delay - stated as up to 60 days - if this is true, it is POSSIBLE, I suppose that a supplier who doesn't come up with the box MIGHT simply cancel your card number from their list and let you know....pure speculation, of course, but it seems like it would work.

(I think that ordinarily, once the card is used, that's it, but this might provide a way out...)

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post #478 of 6754 Old 06-05-2008, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avio View Post

I just spoke with the store manager of my local B&M Ultimate Electronics and he confirmed that he heard that the "EchoStar/Dish Converter Boxes" would be arriving in store in "a week or two." He suggested calling back on Friday evenings after the weekly truck had been unloaded. He did not know the model number, but I informed him that it could only be the DTVPal or the EchoStar TR-40. He agreed that there was only one model made by EchoStar/Dish.

Ultimate Electronics is a chain of consumer electronics stores in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Nevada, New Mexico, and Oklahoma.

Avio

Thanks for the store locations. I wasn't sure were else they were located. I just checked UE yesterday and was told "mid to late June". Again he said they would only carry the TR-40, not the TR-50
He also said it's still "planned" to sell at $39.99 or Free(less tax) w/coupon.
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post #479 of 6754 Old 06-05-2008, 06:56 PM
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I wanted to put an end to all this TVGOS speculation. So, a week ago I emailed Francie Bauer and simply asked her, "Will the DTVPal use PSIP, or Gemstar's TVGuide solution"? She said she'd have to ask the Engineers in London. Today she got back to me and said the DTVPal uses a PSIP guide.

So there you have it folks, Malouff was right. Somehow we've slowly twisted the DTVPal into something it never was...
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post #480 of 6754 Old 06-05-2008, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigaDo View Post

The Dish Network DTVPal is now found on the NTIA listing of converter boxes:
https://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm

This is an eagerly awaited CECB - it was supposed to be coming out in June. I might even buy one since I'm eager to get a unit with S-video and the other features for timer recording.
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Reply Coupon Eligible Converter Box (CECB)

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