Dish DTVPal / Echostar TR40 digital to analog converter - Page 178 - AVS Forum
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post #5311 of 6754 Old 11-19-2008, 09:38 PM
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Has anyone ever gotten a 'pal device to fill a TVGOS device (e.g., a Panny E85) with digital listings?

I see the DTVPal DVR is also supposed to be able to supply listings to TVGOS devices; the manual has the same info about substitute zip codes, etc.
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post #5312 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootymonger View Post

Has anyone ever gotten a 'pal device to fill a TVGOS device (e.g., a Panny E85) with digital listings?

Nope. Not so far.
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post #5313 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norseman View Post

Oh, that's right. I've been using the program guide all this time that I've forgotten about the manual timer. It sure is going to be a pain changing the time manually like in VCRs.

If you'd have gone with something like the IR blaster/CM-7000 setup instead, you'd only have to fuss with setting timers on one unit instead of both.

The Pal or the Zinwell are really recommended more for the recorders without IR blasters - if having the best picture quality is a priority, then you're giving up some when using those.

(Here's a tip: rather than going through the whole TVGOS menu to set up a timer recording, you only need to press the "VCR+" button on the E85's remote and that will directly bring up the timer setup screen.)
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post #5314 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Schauer View Post

Picture quality: Come on, it's SD. I wouldn't call it DVD quality. If you want HDTV, get an HDTV.

Nobody expects HDTV from an SD tuner.

The thing is, you can get DVD-quality from some of the other CECB's.
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post #5315 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Nobody expects HDTV from an SD tuner.

The thing is, you can get DVD-quality from some of the other CECB's.

And if you're seated back at traditional SD distances (6-8 x screen height) rather than HD distance (4 x ht.) then you may never notice the difference between true HD and one of the boxes, even with a new TV. In general, the extra detail will be lost in the distance.

Sturgeon's Law: "Nothing is always absolutely so."
Sturgeons Revelation: "Ninety percent of everything is crud."
My Thoughts: "A reasoned argument must share some basic common points."
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post #5316 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Nobody expects HDTV from an SD tuner.

The thing is, you can get DVD-quality from some of the other CECB's.

Well, I'm a picture quality snob. Good DVD quality for me is upscaled to 1080p, displayed on a calibrated 46" set, seated about 8' back. Even then I'm not that impressed, when I compare it to a top quality Blu-ray. This little device will be used on a 27" SD set, seating distance about 12'.

I could be wrong, but in this scenario I decided having the best guide was more important than an incremental increase in "picture quality". I hesitate to call the end result of this process "picture quality", no matter which box you use.
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post #5317 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northbear View Post

I noticed this also. But I don't think they are discontinuing the original PAL. On their website they say "Looking for the Original DTVPal? Check your local retail store for availability"

So my guess is that they Dish Networks is no longer selling it directly, but it will still be available -- at the higher price for the same features of the TR-40.

what i think it mean dish isn't selling the dtvpal and only ones left are in retail stores. They went through their supply of dtvpals and now just dumped them on the market to sell while they push the better more costly version.
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post #5318 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagger666 View Post

They went through their supply of dtvpals and now just dumped them on the market to sell while they push the better more costly version.

I just did some preliminary testing of a DTVPal F106 vs. DTVPal Plus F106 vs. DTVPal and TR-40 F105.
So far, I wouldn't call the more costly version much better. Although the DTVPal Plus is as little as $1.95 more than the DTVPal.

The new tuner in the DTVPal Plus seems to give a signal that is slightly more stable.
The older tuner occasionally would momentarily drop as much as 15-20 points off of the average signal on some channels.
The new tuner lessens that fluctuation to a drop of about 5 points off of the average signal.

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post #5319 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

I just did some preliminary testing of a DTVPal F106 vs. DTVPal Plus F106 vs. DTVPal and TR-40 F105.
So far, I wouldn't call the more costly version much better. Although the DTVPal Plus is a little as $1.95 more than the DTVPal.

The new tuner in the DTVPal Plus seems to give a signal that is slightly more stable. That's all.
The older tuner occasionally would momentarily drop 15-20 points off of the average signal on some channels.
The new tuner lessens that fluctuation to a drop of about 5 points off of the average signal.

Don't expect the Plus to pull in stations you couldn't get with the Pal. If you had marginal stations, you may get a more stable picture.


Beeper

Man I was just going to PM you and ask you what happened with the plus.

Any more details about the plus? Any new features?

thanks again
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post #5320 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexus2108 View Post

Man I was just going to PM you and ask you what happened with the plus.

Any more details about the plus? Any new features?

thanks again

The only physical difference (other than the name) is that the tuner male coax connectors don't have relief at the ends like the prior tuner.
Some coax connectors seem to tighten, but give a bad picture because part of the connector stays loose.

Everything else so far is the same as DTVPal and TR-40. Anybody's guess as to what F106 has that F105 didn't.

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post #5321 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

The only physical difference (other than the name) is that the tuner male coax connectors don't have relief at the ends like the prior tuner.
Some coax connectors seem to tighten, but give a bad picture because the center part of the connector stays loose.

Everything else so far is the same as DTVPal and TR-40. Anybody's guess as to what F106 has that F105 didn't.

Beeper

"don't have relief at the ends like the prior tuner."


What does this mean? Can you give a generic "laymen" description?

Maybe there is some generic picture on the web you can show us the difference?

thanks
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post #5322 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexus2108 View Post

"don't have relief at the ends like the prior tuner."


What does this mean? Can you give a generic "laymen" description?

Maybe there is some generic picture on the web you can show us the difference?

thanks

Not a big deal. Most coax connectors fit O.K. some my not.

On the old tuner, where the threads end on the male RF connector, there is a short area that is a smaller diameter than the thread root diameter and then a radius to the end.

On the new tuner, the male RF connector threads end abruptly with just a small chamfer.
Some female RF connectors don't tighten properly because of this.

Beeper

Take a peek inside the Plus.
LL
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post #5323 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

Not a big deal. Most coax connectors fit O.K. some my not.

On the old tuner, where the threads end on the male RF connector, there is a short area that is a smaller diameter than the thread root diameter and then a radius to the end.

On the new tuner, the male RF connector threads end abruptly with just a small chamfer.
Some female RF connectors don't tighten properly because of this.

Beeper

anyway to post a generic picture?
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post #5324 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 03:23 PM
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Beeper:
Your photo provides confirmation the DTVPal Plus is one of the very few
CECBs to use the double-conversion Microtune MT2131 tuner chip.

I enhanced brightness/contrast to see Logo and "MT213?", where
the last number is too fuzzy to see:
http://www.microtune.com/products/pdf/mt2131_11.pdf

What was the tin-can tuner part number???
Can you read the part number on the big SoC/ATSC chip???
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post #5325 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

Beeper:
Your photo provides confirmation the DTVPal Plus is one of the very few
CECBs to use the double-conversion Microtune MT2131 tuner chip.

I enhanced brightness/contrast to see Logo and "MT213?", where
the last number is too fuzzy to see:
http://www.microtune.com/products/pdf/mt2131_11.pdf

What was the tin-can tuner part number???
Can you read the part number on the big SoC/ATSC chip???

The tuner chip is MT2131F.

The black rectangular component is marked I X6941D EPOCS 6738 JTW5.

The pill shaped can is SRX7318-E 0820C.

There was a cover on the can, similar to the Thompson tuner, but no markings.

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post #5326 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 08:00 PM
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has anyone gotten a TR40 at sears in NYC? i checked my local sears and they only have the DTVPAL for 59.99. which ones have it?

is there anywhere else that sells it in nyc and takes the $40 coupon?
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post #5327 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 09:56 PM
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My TR40 pq looks just as good as the Zenith DTT901 pq on a 27 inch analog tv using rca jacks.

The TR40 locks the same channels the Zenith does, and most of the stations I get are from 30 to 50 miles and one at 60 miles.
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post #5328 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 10:09 PM
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I had about equal sensitivity between a F100 Pal and the Zenith DTT-900.

I haven't had the chance to compare the PQ between an F105/F106 Pal and a DTT-901, though, so it's possible it could be closer.
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post #5329 of 6754 Old 11-20-2008, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Nope. Not so far.

TVGOS using PAL not working for me either! TVGOS is unable to locate a digital channel in my area carrying the HOST data stream. Not sure if VBI channel it found actually had the required VBI data or not. I've opened an inquiry with TVGOS support web site but so far no reply from them. I've asked specifically about who is going to carry the HOST and VBI data in my area.
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post #5330 of 6754 Old 11-21-2008, 01:47 AM
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I have an F106 Pal via exchange. It feeds a Toshiba RDXS32 DVR with hard drive (NTSC only tuner) that I've use to record and time-shift OTA programming. Just in the last few weeks, a few shows that it's recorded have shown up copy protected, in particular some "Law and Order" episodes on NBC. That is, I can record the show fine for watching later, but I can't duplicate it (even if I wanted to!). Other programming recorded recently does not have the protection. I know that the ATSC signal that the Pal receives has all sorts of provision for this, but it seems that this is being propagated through the Pal and output in the NTSC signal sent (via RF F-type connector) to the Toshiba. I was unaware that NTSC supported this; it must be something in the VBI? Anyone have a similar experience?

Please don't misunderstand me; I am NOT looking for a hack to get around this, as I just watch these programs at a time more convenient for me and then delete them. I just want to understand what's going on.

--Gary
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post #5331 of 6754 Old 11-21-2008, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlylilazn View Post

has anyone gotten a TR40 at sears in NYC? i checked my local sears and they only have the DTVPAL for 59.99. which ones have it?

is there anywhere else that sells it in nyc and takes the $40 coupon?

Very few, if any, B&M stores cary the TR-40. I think just about everyone got theirs online with SolidSignal seemingly being the cheapest.
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post #5332 of 6754 Old 11-21-2008, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeL28 View Post

TVGOS using PAL not working for me either! TVGOS is unable to locate a digital channel in my area carrying the HOST data stream. Not sure if VBI channel it found actually had the required VBI data or not. I've opened an inquiry with TVGOS support web site but so far no reply from them. I've asked specifically about who is going to carry the HOST and VBI data in my area.

You've found what everyone else has found - the TVGOS folk claim "hang in there - we're working on it". It's not that you don't have a TVGOS Host in your area, it just that they are not yet transmitting a data stream compatible with the PAL. So we wait...
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post #5333 of 6754 Old 11-21-2008, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

I just did some preliminary testing of a DTVPal F106 vs. DTVPal Plus F106 vs. DTVPal and TR-40 F105.
So far, I wouldn't call the more costly version much better. Although the DTVPal Plus is as little as $1.95 more than the DTVPal.

The new tuner in the DTVPal Plus seems to give a signal that is slightly more stable. That's all.
The older tuner occasionally would momentarily drop as much as 15-20 points off of the average signal on some channels.
The new tuner lessens that fluctuation to a drop of about 5 points off of the average signal.

Don't expect the Plus to pull in stations you couldn't get with the Pal. However, if you had marginal stations, you may get a more stable picture.


Beeper

I was especially interested in your statement: "Although the DTVPal Plus is as little as $1.95 more than the DTVPal."

"Please provide information as to where and how I can purchase a DTVPal Plus for only $1.95 more than DTVPal.
My research has shown that the DTVPal Plus is $10 more than the DTVPal.
Thank you for your reply.
NYnasty in Kenosha, Wisconsin
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post #5334 of 6754 Old 11-21-2008, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYnasty View Post

"Please provide information as to where and how I can purchase a DTVPal Plus for only $1.95 more than DTVPal.
My research has shown that the DTVPal Plus is $10 more than the DTVPal.
Thank you for your reply.
NYnasty in Kenosha, Wisconsin

Answered in PM. Online priced, plus shipping, no tax.
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post #5335 of 6754 Old 11-21-2008, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by biker19 View Post

Very few, if any, B&M stores cary the TR-40. I think just about everyone got theirs online with SolidSignal seemingly being the cheapest.

thanks for the reply. hmm, that sucks. i was hoping to avoid shipping costs by getting it at a B&M. is the TR-40 better than the TIVAX STV-T8 and Zenith DTT-901? if im gonna end up paying about 10 bucks, these are all similar priced and i've heard good and bad things about them all
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post #5336 of 6754 Old 11-21-2008, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gac_1959 View Post

I have an F106 Pal via exchange. It feeds a Toshiba RDXS32 DVR with hard drive (NTSC only tuner) that I've use to record and time-shift OTA programming. Just in the last few weeks, a few shows that it's recorded have shown up copy protected, in particular some "Law and Order" episodes on NBC. That is, I can record the show fine for watching later, but I can't duplicate it (even if I wanted to!). Other programming recorded recently does not have the protection. I know that the ATSC signal that the Pal receives has all sorts of provision for this, but it seems that this is being propagated through the Pal and output in the NTSC signal sent (via RF F-type connector) to the Toshiba. I was unaware that NTSC supported this; it must be something in the VBI? Anyone have a similar experience?

This has been happening a lot lately with DVD recorders with built-in tuners. This is the first incident mentioned here that I know of where an external tuner was used. The people in the DVD Recorders forum will be very interested to hear this, because they were at least hoping they wouldn't have the problem using an external, standalone box.

People seem to have traced the CP to having been placed in the commercials (of all places). Sounds like they may be trying to skirt the rules by doing this, while still being able to foul up people's recordings.

Apparently, in one of his last-ditch efforts to get as much corporate damage and control in there, Shrub signed some kind of bill a couple of months back which *might* have something to do with it.

I'll have to alert them in that sub-forum of your post. I think they're mostly talking about it in the non-sticky, Philips 3575H thread, because people who have bought recent models of the 3575 & 6H Philips are starting to have that problem more and more all over lately, and they've been arguing about whether to blame the recorder or not. But people with other recorders have reported it, too.
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post #5337 of 6754 Old 11-21-2008, 12:08 PM
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why answer him in a PM...shouldnt we all know where to get a good deal? unless of course it's off the back of a van in an alley....
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post #5338 of 6754 Old 11-21-2008, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gac_1959 View Post

I have an F106 Pal via exchange. It feeds a Toshiba RDXS32 DVR with hard drive (NTSC only tuner) that I've use to record and time-shift OTA programming. Just in the last few weeks, a few shows that it's recorded have shown up copy protected, in particular some "Law and Order" episodes on NBC. That is, I can record the show fine for watching later, but I can't duplicate it (even if I wanted to!). Other programming recorded recently does not have the protection. I know that the ATSC signal that the Pal receives has all sorts of provision for this, but it seems that this is being propagated through the Pal and output in the NTSC signal sent (via RF F-type connector) to the Toshiba. I was unaware that NTSC supported this; it must be something in the VBI? Anyone have a similar experience?

--Gary

Gary,

I have two DTVPals (with F106 software) set up as front end tuners for two different brand DVD HDD recorders. One is a Polaroid and one is some "off brand" (purchased from Radio Shack on a closeout sale). So far, I have not run into that problem but it could be WHAT I am recording. I use them mainly to record stuff from PBS stations. My neighbor can't get the PBS stations and I make DVDs for her. I have my DTVPals connected via the composite (not RF) connection. I'll try some NBC programs to see if I get the same thing that you did.

I do know that "copy protection" can be passed via RF. I remember years ago that VCRs did that on copy protected (macrovision) tapes.

Bill R
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post #5339 of 6754 Old 11-21-2008, 05:34 PM
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I just received the DTVPal Plus today. Software version: F106TCHH-N
Boot Strap Version 1813TCHH, Processor ID 28757676.
I've also got one of the Zenith DTT901's.

I'm in Boulder CO, which is a very difficult OTA environment due to the Rocky Mountains quite literally out the front door:-). I'm located roughly 15 miles from the towers on Lookout Mountain which hosts 6 channels, though I don't have direct line of sight since Boulder sits in a valley. While the DTVPal has good sensitivity it seems to pixelate a bit more than the Zenith DTT901 (which drops out more) when the signal fluctuates. So not a big difference there that I notice. It would just depend which bothers you more, the pixelation or the dropouts. Both are jacked into my Panasonic DVR - an eh50 via RCA jacks. Both are hooked to the same amplifier coming from the antenna on the roof.

There are a few things I'd change about the DTVPal Plus from a user interface point of view:
1. In program guide mode all you get is guide - no PIP w/ audio or transparent overlay, which is one the things I really like about my Panny DVR w TVGOS. What's strange is when you hit the menu button - you have the PIP/w audio on the right. But once you select a submenu the PIP disappears. Why not just leave it? Particularly since when you display channel info it's a transparent overlay and you can scroll through the single channel guide while still having the program up. You can even display the program blurb for a show in the future on that channel. But if you select to set a timer event or go to the program guide you're back to just that screen no PIP. It's an inconsistent and strange interface design decision. At least make it a user preference setting.

edit: I did discover that if I push the up or down channel button while looking at the single channel guide ( push right channel(Browse) button) the single channel guide will show the next or previous channel - all semi-transparent over the picture. So it's not quite a PIP and doesn't let you see multiple channels at a glance but it's a semi-PIP.

2. There's no way to preview any changes to closed captioning. You have to back all the way out to see what it will look like. Very strange since the PIP is there on the right while you're in the main caption menu. Picture disappears as soon as a sub-menu is selected. Irritating.

3. The guide and program info - displays station call letters but not affiliate information. That means I have to remember which channel number goes with what and given that some of my channels come in over translators I don't know what call letters go with who all the time. Channel 22 is that Fox, ION or who? The DTT901 also lacks this. I'm guessing this is a transmitted info in PSIP issue?

4. Also dislike the occasional VBI across the top in "normal" picture format on some channels. Wish it had more zoom modes like the DTT901 as well.

I have not tested out timers, and don't really plan on using them unless the TVGOS stuff never works (sigh:-(). I will have to get on the roof and get the CBS signal back (why I pick up the other 3 channels from the same tower with no problem is baffling), I don't expect to get any TVGOS digital data but I thought I'd try it for grins, since Dish/Echostar is headquartered here in Denver metro and I've heard rumors they're testing it out here:-)
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post #5340 of 6754 Old 11-21-2008, 07:52 PM
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"3. The guide and program info - displays station call letters but not affiliate information. That means I have to remember which channel number goes with what and given that some of my channels come in over translators I don't know what call letters go with who all the time. Channel 22 is that Fox, ION or who? The DTT901 also lacks this. I'm guessing this is a transmitted info in PSIP issue?"

You can edit this information; you can put replace the call letters with whatever you want...
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