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post #6151 of 6754 Old 05-11-2009, 05:43 PM
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No, I'm not referring to diagnostic screen info. I'm talking about the TVGOS ID number that appears when you press enter on the Messages menu item...

ID: 8F378-39322H8-R5308

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3523324297

By the way, I'm starting to get channels from the Pal+ to the Panny, so maybe by tomorrow I'll be getting guide info, too. If I do, I'll have a lengthy process of explaining all the steps I went through to get it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3523361793

Panasonic E85H TVGOS Diagnostic Screen

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3523418601/
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post #6152 of 6754 Old 05-11-2009, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebo View Post

You're testing us to see if we're paying attention, right?

(Bolding added). Granted, I went through school before they instituted the New Math, but isn't 4x3==1.33:1?


Right you are.... That was my telecine film transfer background peeking through.... 1.85:1 is aspect ratio on 35mm film of what becomes 4x3 in video... My appologies....

Looking for a 1939 Indian Motocycle
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post #6153 of 6754 Old 05-11-2009, 06:04 PM
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By the way... A couple emails between someone and myself provided me the following two bits of information.... Which I pass along with the cavaet that I was told this from someone who knows.... (I'm just the delivery boy here....)

1. Aparantly a DTVPal with a real local Zipcode in it will not use a GLink cable. A DTVPal with a generic Zipcode (for example Chicago 00003) will tell the DTVPal a GLink cable is needed.

2. (I'm having trouble with this one): Aparantly, if you have cable with Channel 2 and Channel 7 with TVG stations, and you use a DTVPal's RF on Channel 3 or Channel 4, a V7 TVG product may lock up to CH3 or CH4 temporairly, but it then may ignore it in a couple days, IF CH3 or CH4 didn't already have a TVG station at that channel in the cable feed.... In other words, it won't reliably work..... ???

Discuss....

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post #6154 of 6754 Old 05-11-2009, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan J View Post

By the way... A couple emails between someone and myself provided me the following two bits of information.... Which I pass along with the cavaet that I was told this from someone who knows.... (I'm just the delivery boy here....)

1. Aparantly a DTVPal with a real local Zipcode in it will not use a GLink cable. A DTVPal with a generic Zipcode (for example Chicago 00003) will tell the DTVPal a GLink cable is needed.

...

update2( sorry, I missed that "I'm just the delivery boy part". Tact goes out the window when you are tired. As evidenced by my opening line )

How about trying it yourself before mentioning it to others?

I'm still relying on analog over the air listings. But I just tried changing my DTVPal Plus's zip code from my regular one to the alternate. The DTVPal is still able to listen to Scientific Atlanta IR codes to tune to specific channel numbers.

Or was the point that your TVGOS hardware won't be able to get listings properly with a misconfigured DTVPal?

So this was a heads up for people that are having problems getting things working.

(sorry I'm just not seeing the value of spreading this particular message)

(not that everything I've said has been spot on...)

update1( for completeness I just used my Panasonic's remote to use the IR Blaster. And yes the IR Blaster is still able to have the DTVPal change channels. Previously I just used a remote I trained with the IR codes the IR Blaster outputs. )
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post #6155 of 6754 Old 05-11-2009, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

No, I'm not referring to diagnostic screen info. I'm talking about the TVGOS ID number that appears when you press enter on the Messages menu item...

ID: 8F378-39322H8-R5308

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3523324297

In that picture I see:

[Setup] [Messages] [Schedule]

as the tabs along the top.

I don't think TVGOS 9 has that [Messages] tab.

for anyone that knows:
Does TVGOS 8 have a [Messages] tab?

On my Panasonic DMR-EH75V I just have:
[Search] [Setup] [Schedule][Listings]


That ID number is the same as the one that's at the top of your diagnostic screen.

My first diagnostic screen has an ID number like that as well.

ID: 2X777-7171F00-R5306

update1( But I don't see this ID number anywhere other than in diagnostic mode

for anyone that knows:
Does TVGOS 8 show this ID number outside of diagnostic mode?
)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

By the way, I'm starting to get channels from the Pal+ to the Panny, so maybe by tomorrow I'll be getting guide info, too. If I do, I'll have a lengthy process of explaining all the steps I went through to get it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3523361793

Panasonic E85H TVGOS Diagnostic Screen

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3523418601/

Congratulations! I think the fact that your "Host Chan" is set correcty is very promising.

0x38 = 56

New York City, New York on:
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos
shows 56 is the right number as well (which I'm sure you realize...)
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post #6156 of 6754 Old 05-11-2009, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kev4321 View Post

How about trying it yourself before mentioning it to others?
...
Or was the point that your TVGOS hardware won't be able to work properly with a misconfigured DTVPal?

kev, as I indicated earlier in this thread, I have MY DTVPal set up as usual, i.e., with my real zip code and no cable, because I believe that is probably the only way to get the same TVGOS data as I am now getting now, so that my unit will operate with the real channel numbers (including digital) and therefore still act like a digital high-definition unit...

since setting it up this way, all I've done is TESTED for vbi packets, and - as far as I can tell - I get the A and B packets to my 3410a at roughly the same rates as I get them via antenna from analog 5 and 9...but I am not FORCING my unit to channel 3 from the Pal, because I'd rather wait until it switches ITSELF...so that I don't screw anything up.

But the procedure in the Pal manual is obviously not designed for a high-def unit, so why even try it that way? unless I WANT all the trouble of turnng OFF a hundred - or hundreds of - cable channels that I don't even get? or so that I try to figure out how to get the TVGOS lineup to have digital channels?

since many think the legacy data stream includes all the REAL zip code data (as well as data with the substitute channel numbers for the substitute zip codes), why not USE the real data if you have a device that has a digital tuner? and avoid all that screw up...even if it's not what Microvision has in mind, because they apparently don't have anything in mind about our devices...

just my opinion...and if I'm proved wrong, well, then I can always try their seemingly screwed-up approach..

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TVGOS data: Sony 250 from 5.1?, LG3410a from
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post #6157 of 6754 Old 05-12-2009, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

kev, as I indicated earlier in this thread, I have MY DTVPal set up as usual, i.e., with my real zip code and no cable, because I believe that is probably the only way to get the same TVGOS data as I am now getting now, so that my unit will operate with the real channel numbers (including digital) and therefore still act like a digital high-definition unit...

...

But the procedure in the Pal manual is obviously not designed for a high-def unit, so why even try it that way? unless I WANT all the trouble of turnng OFF a hundred - or hundreds of - cable channels that I don't even get? or so that I try to figure out how to get the TVGOS lineup to have digital channels?

...

Incidentally at least here in the SF Bay Area I don't think you will be faced with hundreds of bad entries in the TV Guide listings. I have mentioned my findings below to remove some of the mystery.

(apparently other areas may indeed experience having hundreds of incorrect entries turned on. At least from what I remember reading)

But first a request. I don't have anything with an ATSC tuner and TVGOS support. I'm curious how complete are the listings? Do they fill in for the non .1 subchannels as well? Or do you have to manually add them?

There are 24 non .1 subchannels in the SF Bay Area:
Code:
LATV       2.2
KRON-HD    4.2
LIVWELL    7.2 (used to be KGO+)
WEATHER    7.3 (used to be KGOW)
KTEH       9.2 (used to be KQEDL, then KQEDK)
KQEDW      9.3
KNTV-DT   11.2
KNTVU     11.3 (N/A)
AZASF     20.4
KRCB-DT2  22.2
KTSFD     26.2 (N/A)
WorldCh   32.2 (N/A)
WTV       32.4 (N/A)
NTD       32.5 (N/A)
KICU2     36.2
KTEH2     54.2
KTEHL     54.3
KTEHK     54.4
V-ME      54.5
KCSMD2    60.2
qubo      65.2
IONL      65.3
WRSHP     65.4
KDTV-DT   66.2

(N/A) = call sign isn't in TV Guide channel editor
Could you post a reply marking each of those you see in your channel editor with "*" ?-)


When configuring TVGOS for the DTVPal as a Cable Box using my real zip code and choosing any of the following lineups I don't get any of those non .1 subchannels. What I do see is:

Code:
TV Guide Setup > Change System Settings > Yes, but my chan lineup is incorrect.

Found more than one cable box channel lineup in your area:

Please choose your channel lineup:
AT&T U-verse          (44424) (23 chans, 21 goodcs( 6 wn),  2 badcs)
Astound Broadband     (19192) (82 chans, 21 goodcs(14 wn), 61 badcs)
Comcast - Foster City (18927) (68 chans, 21 goodcs(14 wn), 47 badcs)
Comcast - San Mateo   (15354) (67 chans, 21 goodcs(14 wn), 46 badcs)
No Match                      (23 chans, 21 goodcs( 6 wn),  2 badcs)

cs = call sign
wn = wrong number (but correct cs)
badcs = bad if you don't subscribe to this service
I imagine the FCC's must carry regulation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Must-carry
is the reason for each service carrying the local channels that they do.


Alternate Zip Code

I've come to the conclusion that the alternate zip code is only usable for

cable box lineups.
It never worked with configuring the DTVPal as a "Dish Network Systems" DirecTV satellite receiver, anyway. TV Guide Setup > Change System Settings > Yes, but my channel lineup is incorrect.

Found more than one cable box channel lineup in your area:

Please choose your channel lineup:
San Francisco Digital Over-The-Air (13001) (77 chans, 39 good cs, 38 bad cs)
No Match (same as lineup 13001)


I talked about my preference for using my real zip and choosing "No Match" for "Cable Box" lineup in this message.
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post #6158 of 6754 Old 05-12-2009, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

my units below have 2 kinds of ID numbers that no one has ever been able to explain to me...

on the basic info page, at least one of the units has a station ID or host ID just above the host channel...someone who had a Pal+ told me that that indicated he place my host channel was located, but that didn't correlate with what I could SEE was the host channel...

and on my Sony 150, which has a LOT of diagnostic screens, including several that give TVGOS download schedules, there is a column that gives (I think it is called) the "station ID"...there are schedules, apparently, for FIVE different analog stations, plus one digital, but no info anywhere as to what those stations are, except by trying to infer this from what the unit gives as its host channel...

On my Panasonic DMR-EH75V with TVGOS 9 I don't see any station ID stuff in any of the diagnostic screens. At least I don't remember seeing it. I think the Sony is a little more sophisticated... (it has an ATSC tuner after all)

What is the "section - subsection" you see those station IDs listed in?

And what are the numbers you see? for the station IDs as well as host ID too, if it isn't too much trouble.
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post #6159 of 6754 Old 05-12-2009, 03:29 PM
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Re: My Panny E85H connected to the Pal+ in cable box mode using OTA

OK, it's been over 12 hours later from my last posting and TVGOS show info for a couple of days was filled in overnight. However.... lots of channels were missing that my Pal+ receives, there were station duplicates, there were channels that didn't have any connection to my Pal+ and were asking to be scanned for. A real mess. One of the stations on the guide was WABC News Channel 8? Never heard of it. It's always been Channel 7 in NYC. And some Channel 20 called WTXXD. It's not even on cable. Never heard of it in my 50 years of watching TV in NYC. Must be from some other region.

Worst of all, all these stations that are being fed to the Panny are some sort of a low resolution SD output. They weren't standard definition, they were of even lower quality than that. You could see pixel lines. (I'm using an 19" LCD HD display for testing this setup) The Panny or Pal+ must have been fed some crappy resolution data.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3526801390
There were no digital stations on the Panny whatsoever and certainly no subchannels (and I normally get a dozen or so subs). Most of my higher UHF stations were missing on the Panny TVGOS. I don't know how to explain it. There's no reason for the channel mapping to be so screwed up.

The Pal+ in standard mode gives me nice digital high-quality video, so how the heck these low resolution non-digital stations leaked through is beyond me. And no, I did not have the Pal+ set for analog pass-through. It was showing digital pictures before and after I put it in cable box mode. I'm sure my equipment is working just fine, but whatever data is getting fed to the Panny must be a garbled mess.

So, how I got my Pal+ to gather data for my Panny was to give the Pal+ another zip code in my area. I used a zip code from my local TimeWarner Cable center which is about a mile north or so from where I live. I had tried a couple of different zip codes because I had read here http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/tvgos....m/general.html that TVGOS might not be able to match certain zip codes and I wouldn't get any data. So I put in zip code 11355 which is where one of the TWC centers is and that seemed to grab data much faster. So anyone in Queens should try that zip code. That zip code gives the same channel lineup to the Pal+ in standard mode as my real zip code does. I had also set the Pal+ to Zoom mode but I had already done that before this new zip code and still didn't get any data.

I can't logically troubleshoot stuff the way many of you fellow members can and I make assumptions due to lack of understanding all these subcarrier signals, imbedded data and stuff. I totally don't understand video carrier signals at all. One of you mentioned that I had gotten the proper Host station for NYC and I didn't catch that at all. So if that's correct, then I'm only going to assume they are not sending out the proper data yet because channel lineups are wrong and no digital stations.

I only can say that at least 96% of the people that are going to rely on TVGOS would be in my category and it's insane to think it's going to be this difficult once the transition is complete. I'm sure most of you know what you're doing is correct as far as the setup is concerned, but as you can see the results are varied and mostly unsatisfactory.

Look, the OTA signal in my area is mainly generated from one powerful source, the Empire State Building and maybe two other weak sources, so, no matter what zip code is put in the Pal+, for a three mile radius around that transmitter has to give the same channels and that's that. So why the hell are all those channel listings out of whack? Assuredly, incorrect data sent from the Host station. No way I can get around that. The data being sent from the Host station must be incomplete to miss all those common channels. I'd estimate the Panny got 10-12 viewable channels out of my 35 normally viewable ones. That's plain stupid.

During the time I was typing this info, the Pal+ seemed to have gone to sleep, stopped sending video to the Panny and even though the green light blinked when I changed channels using the Panny remote, no video ever resumed so I suppose it's gone bye-bye temporarily. If I use the Pal+ remote, the Revert Back To Standard Mode message pops up, so it's not completely dead, just no more video which makes it temporarily useless.

I'll be glad to answer any specific questions if I'm able to or take screen shots or whatever is needed if it will be of any use. Sorry if I could have condensed stuff, but my thoughts are kind of random. I'm really just about done with this stuff until 30 or so more days pass. I wish the rest of you the best of luck if you think you can get proper data sooner. I've done the best I could with what little knowledge I possess and met with failure.
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post #6160 of 6754 Old 05-12-2009, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kev4321 View Post


But first a request. I don't have anything with an ATSC tuner and TVGOS support. I'm curious how complete are the listings? Do they fill in for the non .1 subchannels as well? Or do you have to manually add them?

There are 24 non .1 subchannels in the SF Bay Area:
[code]
LATV 2.2 *
KRON-HD 4.2*
LIVWELL 7.2 (used to be KGO+)*
WEATHER 7.3 (used to be KGOW)*
KTEH 9.2 (used to be KQEDL, then KQEDK)*
KQEDW 9.3*
KNTV-DT 11.2*
KNTVU 11.3 (N/A)
AZASF 20.4 this station is given as 19.4 in my lineup
KRCB-DT2 22.2
KTSFD 26.2 (N/A)
WorldCh 32.2 (N/A)
WTV 32.4 (N/A)
NTD 32.5 (N/A)
KICU2 36.2
KTEH2 54.2
KTEHL 54.3
KTEHK 54.4
V-ME 54.5
KCSMD2 60.2 lineup-no listings
qubo 65.2*
IONL 65.3*
WRSHP 65.4*
KDTV-DT 66.2
60.2*

I'va annotated the llist above as best I can...this is from my straight TV Guide screen, not from the screen for reordering, etc (I've done a lot of reordering, so the main ones wee watch are all visible o the opening screen without scrolling down, and the next half dozen or so (come on the next page down...)

To answer your questions in the post that followed:

on system-statist-cs, the host ID is given as 0x13B and the host channel as 0:0-9

on VBI Date-VBIDLched, schdules aare given for the following StID: 2308, 2560, 2571, 2632, 2674, 5275
The first 5 are analog schedules, the last digital (which includes DL 97s, which the analog doesn't have)
on VBI Data-VBIDL
my unit show downloads for the full schedules of two of the analog stations, both beginning at virtually the same time, plus a few downloads from the digital station

OTA only. For signal strength at your location:
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post #6161 of 6754 Old 05-12-2009, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

Re: My Panny E85H connected to the Pal+ in cable box mode using OTA

OK, it's been over 12 hours later from my last posting and TVGOS show info for a couple of days was filled in overnight. However.... lots of channels were missing that my Pal+ receives, there were station duplicates, there were channels that didn't have any connection to my Pal+ and were asking to be scanned for. A real mess. One of the stations on the guide was WABC News Channel 8? Never heard of it. It's always been Channel 7 in NYC. And some Channel 20 called WTXXD. It's not even on cable. Never heard of it in my 50 years of watching TV in NYC. Must be from some other region.

This sounds like what happened to me when using the alternate zip code like the instructions tell us to. I find it much better to use my real zip in my Panasonic. I talked about that on 5/1/09 here.

That covers getting the the .1 channels working.

To get the non .1 channels working I talked about that on 5/2/09 here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

Worst of all, all these stations that are being fed to the Panny are some sort of a low resolution SD output. They weren't standard definition, they were of even lower quality than that. You could see pixel lines.

Sometimes my listings will have a few channels set to be received via "Air/RF" instead of "Cable Box". This sounds like what you are experiencing. A clue that this is happening is that you don't see the standard information box that the DTVPal displays about the channel for the first 5 seconds after switching to it.

(I say "Sometimes". I don't mean that the listings change after I have them setup a certain way. That's never happened)

You can go into your TV Guide channel editor and change these "Air/RF" entries to "Cable Box". To get into the channel editor you bring up the listings, press left arrow, then press [Submenu] and choose "edit channels".

But realize that changes made in the channel editor will be lost if you choose another channel lineup or change your zip code. So I think the better approach is to check the other listings first. And then choose the least messed up one to work on fixing.

As far as changing an entry from "Air/RF" to "Cable Box", it is a little tricky. But I mentioned the steps here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

So, how I got my Pal+ to gather data for my Panny was to give the Pal+ another zip code in my area. I used a zip code from my local TimeWarner Cable center which is about a mile north or so from where I live. I had tried a couple of different zip codes because I had read here http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/tvgos....m/general.html that TVGOS might not be able to match certain zip codes and I wouldn't get any data. So I put in zip code 11355 which is where one of the TWC centers is and that seemed to grab data much faster. So anyone in Queens should try that zip code. That zip code gives the same channel lineup to the Pal+ in standard mode as my real zip code does. I had also set the Pal+ to Zoom mode but I had already done that before this new zip code and still didn't get any data.

Great find!-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

During the time I was typing this info, the Pal+ seemed to have gone to sleep, stopped sending video to the Panny and even though the green light blinked when I changed channels using the Panny remote, no video ever resumed so I suppose it's gone bye-bye temporarily. If I use the Pal+ remote, the Revert Back To Standard Mode message pops up, so it's not completely dead, just no more video which makes it temporarily useless.

This might be an overheating issue. I think the simplest solution I've heard is someone mentioned standing the DTVPal on its side.


update1( A word of caution. I just tried this. After a little bit it fell over. It would be terrible if it just breaks because it hasn't been made to withstand shocks very well.

The problem is that the cables pull on the DTVPal. When it lies on its belly it can stay put. But when it sits on its side the tug is too great. It stayed up for 10 minutes or so.

Anyway I just thought I'd mention the heads up. I guess there would be some trick to avoid this problem...
I've just not thought up the greatest MacGyver solution yet.

... a few minutes later ...

Put a string around one of the connectors on the back and have the two ends of the string rest under an edge of something heavy.

update2(
velcro along one side of the Pal. And then as L brackets on either side.

Code:
       +-+
     | |P| |
     | |a| |
     | |l| |
-----+ +-+ +-----

)
)

Someone else mentioned that the reason the DTVPal doesn't have holes for better air circulation is because it made it easier to pass FCC regulations about the amount of radio energy it leaks. (or that that is a common reason devices don't have proper ventilation. I don't remember the details)

And I read about someone drilling holes in theirs. Another person asked, how did you know where to drill so that you didn't hit anything on the inside? They said how you can open it up. There's some trick. Anyway, I wouldn't go blindly drilling.

Mine has only gone into la-la land once. But I don't think it responded at all in that case. I unplugged the power cord, waited a little while, and plugged it back in.

I have a DTVPal Plus with F106 firmware. I got it in February of 2009.

What firmware does yours have? You can see it when you press the little (SYSINFO) button right above the number pad.
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post #6162 of 6754 Old 05-12-2009, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kev4321 View Post


Code:
...
AZASF     20.4  this station is given as 19.4 in my lineup
...
KCSMD2    60.2  lineup - no listings
...

Thanks.

The interesting thing is that "AZASF 19.4" is one of the incorrect entries I found on Backchannelmedia for SF Bay Area.

So Backchannelmedia's listings can have some glitches too. Just far fewer than Macrovision's. At least when it comes to using the alternate zip code.

update1( the fact that they had the same mistake makes me wonder if they are getting their info, at least part of it, from the same place )

KCSMD2 702 (60.2) is filled in ok in my listings. Odd that it isn't for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

To answer your questions in the post that followed:

on system-statist-cs, the host ID is given as 0x13B and the host channel as 0:0-9

on VBI Date-VBIDLched, schdules aare given for the following StID: 2308, 2560, 2571, 2632, 2674, 5275
The first 5 are analog schedules, the last digital (which includes [DLID 97], which the analog doesn't have)
on VBI Data-VBIDL my unit show downloads for the full schedules of two of the analog stations, both beginning at virtually the same time, plus a few downloads from the digital station

0x13B = 315.

So much for my thought that one of those station IDs would be the same as the Host ID.
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post #6163 of 6754 Old 05-12-2009, 10:46 PM
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A previous post referred to entering a zip code other than from one's residence to improve the EPG listing. This approach got me thinking ...
one or two stations distant from my location require tweeing of the antenna's positioning to receive a picture - without the picture, there is a "not available" listing in its EPG grid block. If I tune into the station, the grid then lists program names for the station.

If I were to list a different zip code from where I live, supposedly closer to the transmitter source, would this make it any easier for the EPG to download program names for the "weak" stations? Wouldn't this downloading still depend on the box being able to detect the station from MY location vs. determining it from the zip code? I thought the selection of a zip code simply tells the sender of the EPG program content what area I live in so as to coordinate programs to my area.
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post #6164 of 6754 Old 05-12-2009, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by kev4321 View Post

Thanks.
0x13B = 315.

So much for my thought that one of those station IDs would be the same as the Host ID.

no...I thought of that, too, but...?

OTA only. For signal strength at your location:
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, not any more.

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post #6165 of 6754 Old 05-13-2009, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr100watt View Post

A previous post referred to entering a zip code other than from one's residence to improve the EPG listing. This approach got me thinking ...
one or two stations distant from my location require tweeing of the antenna's positioning to receive a picture - without the picture, there is a "not available" listing in its EPG grid block. If I tune into the station, the grid then lists program names for the station.

If I were to list a different zip code from where I live, supposedly closer to the transmitter source, would this make it any easier for the EPG to download program names for the "weak" stations? Wouldn't this downloading still depend on the box being able to detect the station from MY location vs. determining it from the zip code? I thought the selection of a zip code simply tells the sender of the EPG program content what area I live in so as to coordinate programs to my area.

Because I've been thinking so much about TV Guide based EPG I was thinking that's what you were talking about.

But now I'm pretty sure you mean the EPG stuff built into the DTVPal itself.
I don't think the zip code has any influence on the DTVPal when it is in normal non-TV Guide mode.

update1(I've had DTVPal's zipcode set to some place in New York for 4 days now. DTVPal's own on-screen guide continue to work just fine. Despite me being in the San Francisco Bay Area)

That stuff is just transmitted by each station as part of their digital transmission.

Part of ATSC is something called PSIP and that's where the listings are carried for the DTVPal's own guide data.
(= the reason why you have to periodically wait for it to download guide data when you power it on)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSIP
Included tables
EIT (event information table) - titles and program guide data PSIP 101: What You Need to Know (PDF) talks about it some (found googling atsc epg eit)

A non-PDF version is here. Just choose "View as HTML", of course.


googling site:www.avsforum.com intitle:dtvpal -intitle:dvr atsc eit finds some messages (including in this same thread) that have talked about this before.

It found 5 matches. Only 3 contained eit (excluding DTVPal DVR match):


Dish DTVPal technical and TVGOS topic (7-12-08)
Dish DTVPal / Echostar TR40 digital to analog converter (05-29-08)
Dish DTVPal / Echostar TR40 digital to analog converter (07-25-08)
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Originally Posted by gmucklow View Post

Yes -- The DTVPal Plus decodes the TVGOS data encoded in the ATSC digital signal from my local CBS station and inbeds it in the VBI data on its analog output to input one on my TV. I set up the TV to have a cable box on input one and antenna on input two. The TVGOS in the TV extracts both the cable channel and the OTA channel listings from the TVGOS data for the magic DTVPal Plus zip code. I can watch and record HD ATSC channels from my antennas using the TVGOS system. I don't watch the analog channels from the DTVPal Plus, I only use it to get the data for the TV's TVGOS system.

BTW, both input one and two on my TV go to both tuners, so the DTVPal Plus should work even without two inputs. The DTVPal manual describes how to use it with analog ONLY devices.

You could use splitter/combiners with the DTVPal, and a separate antenna connection. You could use one as a splitter to split the antenna input to both go to the DTVPal input and bypass it -- and use another as a combiner to combine the DTVpal analog output and the antenna to go your LG's input. If you do not have a free channel for the DTVPal output -- You could also try the NTSC baseband video output from the DTVPal Plus, but I don't know if that will pass the TVGOS data.

The DTVPal tech on the phone told me that this unit was not designed to be used for cable. I understand that it does not receive cable channels, but for you it has downloaded the cable listings to your analog TVGOS enabled TV, as I understand it.

I have sucessfully downloaded the local listings to my Panny EH50, but would mainly like to get the cable listings working again, somehow. I have really searched this forum. Some have been able to get them with the cable box, but I would prefer the DTVPal Plus to do it if possible.

Any help?

Dan
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post #6167 of 6754 Old 05-13-2009, 02:04 PM
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This is my temporary setup and there's no way for the Pal+ to overheat. My Pal+ is in a cool room and it's got a little stand (a spare splitter) to prop it up to get 360 degree airflow. http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3528685989
The Pal+ wasn't really hot at all, but I did have to put it back into standard mode before it displayed video again. I also read somewhere that someone drilled holes in a CB to keep it cooled. I love to use my Dremel, but I'll be darned if I'm going to risk turning my Pal+ into swiss cheese, circuit board and all. Just joking. Drilling vent holes seems to be overkill. My Pal+ barely seems warm to the touch in any area.

So kev4321, as you said, I'm going to try to use my local zip code or another major nearby zip code to put into the Panny to see if that will narrow down the listings as was mentioned. I'd love to see some digital stations with subchannels. Using 00001 in the Panny is sort of strange to me, but I just wanted to at least follow as much of the manual's info as possible to see if I could get some useful data. Experimenting with zip codes is, well, kinda going beyond the norm.

I'm certain that when the transition takes place 00001 will work fine, but for now it probably doesn't mean a damn thing to incoming data. I'm sure TVGOS will have mostly all the local channels mapped out properly in due time. Groan, I'll have to start from ground zero again.

And kev4321, yes, I realize I can turn off all those bad channels very easily in the Panny's TVGOS editor. But the point being that where I am as far as transmitter signals are concerned, all those weird stations should not be there in the first place. Oh, and my Panny E85H with v7 doesn't have anything that's labeled "Air/RF" to "Cable Box". I can only turn ON and OFF stations and give them a channel number. Or at least I didn't notice anything that stood out to be able to change inputs for a particular channel. I looked at your neat instructions and I'm sure you tried to give a very detailed way of doing this, but my pea brain will have to absorb those steps and I'll give it another look at another time.

So, I'm going to start from scratch again. I'll reboot the Panny with the channel up/down buttons. I'll use the TimeWarner Cable center zip code in my Pal+ and I'll use my local zip code instead of 00001 in my Panny and see what happens. It should grab clock data in a couple of hours and overnight it will hopefully grab a new TVGOS ID number if everything goes according to plan.

----------------------------------

additional stuff: Using different zip codes in my location doesn't seem to change program listings at all, I mean, all the zip codes I tried have the same transmission coverage so the stations are the same. I'm talking about when the Pal+ is in standard mode. I'll try using a zip code further towards the tip of Long Island and see if it makes a difference in the Pal+ listings or channels. Again, I'm ASSUMING whatever stations my antenna pulls in, they should have the same program listings no matter what zip code I use.

kev4321, I have the same Pal+ firmware that you do, but I got my CB from solidsignal.com in April this year.
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post #6168 of 6754 Old 05-13-2009, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeaty View Post

The DTVPal tech on the phone told me that this unit was not designed to be used for cable. I understand that it does not receive cable channels, but for you it has downloaded the cable listings to your analog TVGOS enabled TV, as I understand it.

I have sucessfully downloaded the local listings to my Panny EH50, but would mainly like to get the cable listings working again, somehow. I have really searched this forum. Some have been able to get them with the cable box, but I would prefer the DTVPal Plus to do it if possible.

In this message I mentioned how both manuals for the Panasonic DMR-EH55 and DMR-EH75 mention that its TV Guide setup is able to support two input sources.

page 16 of
http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/DMREH50.PDF
doesn't seem to indicate that you can have two input sources at the same time.

(to find this manual I googled site:panasonic.com dmr-eh50)

Perhaps you could buy one of those channel combiners like Jan J recently mentioned on 5/9/09 here.

I've never used one of those myself.

googling "channel combiner" sc-3 I found:


Three Input Channel Combiner $14.95 - MCM Electronics

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...LAID=220403084

Three Input Channel Combiner
Distributed By MCM Part #: SC-3 | MCM Order #: 33-255

* Combines channel 3/4 signal (from VCR, computer, game, etc.) with existing VHF signals not including channel 3/4
* Also removes bleedover of channel 3/4 modulated signal from adjacent channels 2 and 4
This site was just the first that jumped out in the google results with a price.

update1(
I said what I did already under the assumption that you had already considered the following:

If you have a cable box already but it doesn't support SCTE-127 you might try to get the cable company to exchange it for one that does.
Or if you don't have a cable box you might request one that supports SCTE-127.

Hopefully this can be done without incurring any great additional monthly charges.
I'm sure some of the more sophisticated cable boxes they have would cost you a monthly charge. But you just need the dumbest one that can do the job.

http://tvgos.com/dtv should let you determine whether your cable company supports it or not, I guess.
(I say I guess because I have no first hand experience with that)
)
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Wouldn't you lose cable channel 3 or 4 that way?
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post #6170 of 6754 Old 05-13-2009, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

kev, as I indicated earlier in this thread, I have MY DTVPal set up as usual, i.e., with my real zip code and no cable, because I believe that is probably the only way to get the same TVGOS data as I am now getting now, so that my unit will operate with the real channel numbers (including digital) and therefore still act like a digital high-definition unit...

since setting it up this way, all I've done is TESTED for vbi packets, and - as far as I can tell - I get the A and B packets to my 3410a at roughly the same rates as I get them via antenna from analog 5 and 9...but I am not FORCING my unit to channel 3 from the Pal, because I'd rather wait until it switches ITSELF...so that I don't screw anything up.

But the procedure in the Pal manual is obviously not designed for a high-def unit, so why even try it that way? unless I WANT all the trouble of turnng OFF a hundred - or hundreds of - cable channels that I don't even get? or so that I try to figure out how to get the TVGOS lineup to have digital channels?

since many think the legacy data stream includes all the REAL zip code data (as well as data with the substitute channel numbers for the substitute zip codes), why not USE the real data if you have a device that has a digital tuner? and avoid all that screw up...even if it's not what Microvision has in mind, because they apparently don't have anything in mind about our devices...

just my opinion...and if I'm proved wrong, well, then I can always try their seemingly screwed-up approach..

It seems many of us are just futzing around since the manual's stated procedures aren't working properly, and hoping to be the first to hit on some magic combination that'll work uniformly for everyone. At first I was hoping to find such an end, but judging from the many varied results it's probably unlikely. Macrovision's approach was likely based on a February transition date for digital TV and the government messed up by causing TV stations to be left in a state of limbo. Let's hope June is the final transition date.

I've got way over a hundred cable channels and I've got two ATSC/QAM tuner TVs, but I got swept up in converter box fever because I had a couple of free coupons and one NTSC tuner TV. I must enjoy giving myself a headache.
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post #6171 of 6754 Old 05-13-2009, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CasualOTAer View Post

Wouldn't you lose cable channel 3 or 4 that way?

Good point. And more importantly I think that product requires that channel 3 not already having anything on it. (at least that's how I read its not so clear description)

AVS Forum Archive 2 - channel 3 notch filter?
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/.../t-493833.html

That page from 2005 talks about it some.

I googled channel notch combiner to find that. (some of the other stuff that finds might be worth looking at)

Anyway, this is not something I'm knowledgeable about, and don't presently need. So I should bow out.

update1(
googling site:www.avsforum.com dtvpal channel notch combiner (gets 37 matches as of 5/13/09)
)
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post #6172 of 6754 Old 05-13-2009, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kev4321 View Post

In this message I mentioned how both manuals for the Panasonic DMR-EH55 and DMR-EH75 mention that its TV Guide setup is able to support two input sources.

page 16 of
http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/DMREH50.PDF
doesn't seem to indicate that you can have two input sources at the same time.

(to find this manual I googled site:panasonic.com dmr-eh50)

Perhaps you could buy one of those channel combiners like Jan J recently mentioned on 5/9/09 here.


update1(
I said what I did already under the assumption that you had already considered the following:

If you have a cable box already but it doesn't support SCTE-127 you might try to get the cable company to exchange it for one that does.
Or if you don't have a cable box you might request one that supports SCTE-127.

Hopefully this can be done without incurring any great additional monthly charges.
I'm sure some of the more sophisticated cable boxes they have would cost you a monthly charge. But you just need the dumbest one that can do the job.

http://tvgos.com/dtv should let you determine whether your cable company supports it or not, I guess.
(I say I guess because I have no first hand experience with that)
)

Thanks for taking the time to look up the eh50 manual and offer some ideas. I was aware of the diff between the eh50 and eh55. I have a digital cable box that I am using on another tv/recorder setup. I haven't tried that yet because I thought I read somewhere that the DTVPal could help me keep the line w/o the box going with TVGOS.

Maybe I misunderstood what you and others have been talking about. Are you saying that if I could combine the DTVPal signal from the rabbit ears with the analog cable signal with a box then the eh50 could download the cable channels and the guide together?

Yes the web site you mentioned states that my cable station (WOW) supports SCTE-127, but no one at WOW knows why I am not getting the guide anymore. The phone techs claim no such service.

Just now I noticed one of your earlier threads that you deleted the cable channels from the guide because you weren't using cable. I missed the point again.

Dan
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post #6173 of 6754 Old 05-13-2009, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeaty View Post

Thanks for taking the time to look up the eh50 manual and offer some ideas.

welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeaty View Post

I thought I read somewhere that the DTVPal could help me keep the line w/o the box going with TVGOS.

I'm not sure what this refers to. Do you mean that the DTVPal would let you keep your cable line connected to your Panasonic EH50?

I would say yes if you had a Panasonic model that actually supported two inputs simultaneously.
But without that I don't see how. Though I did see an A/B switch mentioned to someone else in your area with WOW cable here (8/13/08).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeaty View Post

Maybe I misunderstood what you and others have been talking about. Are you saying that if I could combine the DTVPal signal from the rabbit ears with the analog cable signal with a box then the eh50 could download the cable channels and the guide together?

Apparently Jan J works in the television industry and is intimately familiar with signals and cables and who knows what else. So he's able to do it. Could a layperson? I don't know. Maybe one with some pretty good technical skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeaty View Post

Yes the web site you mentioned states that my cable station (WOW) supports SCTE-127, but no one at WOW knows why I am not getting the guide anymore. The phone techs claim no such service.

Just now I noticed one of your earlier threads that you deleted the cable channels from the guide because you weren't using cable. I missed the point again.

If I configure my Panasonic using the alternate zip code like the DTVPal manual instructs us to I then would have to spend hours in the TV Guide channel editor fixing all the mistakes it has.

Mistakes like channels listed that are in cities 200 miles away. Duplicate channels. Channels with wrong numbers. Channels that are missing that require me to press page down 20 times to find the channels call sign letters in a list of over 600 channels in the channel editor.

Have you memorized the call sign letters of all of your over the air channels? By now I know most of mine. But when I started with this stuff I didn't. I had to look that stuff up. It takes real work. It is a hassle.

If I configure my Panasonic to use the DTVPal using my real zip code I have to choose a particular cable channel lineup. I choose "No Match" and now the amount of work I have to do is reduced to say 20 minutes. Most of that time is spent turning on the non .1 channels (like 2.2 2.3 4.2 7.2 7.3 and so on).

Others said when they chose "No Match" they had literally hundreds and hundreds of channels to turn off. So for them choosing a particular cable lineup reduces the amount of work they needed to do.

The point is making less work for yourself.

Anyway, I wish you luck.
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post #6174 of 6754 Old 05-13-2009, 09:48 PM
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kev4321 - thanks for all the links in your posts.

I did go to the FCC "DTV Reception Maps,"
( http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ )
entered my zip code, clicked on the "go" button, and nothing happened. I reentered a different address and same result. Moving the cursor on top of the "go" button resulted in no change of appearance to the cursor symbol, so it looks like that page has an inactive interactive feature in that regards.

Also - the FCC page on antennas instructs people to get an antenna that has dipoles (for VHF) and a loop (for UHF) for dtv reception.

I use antennas that consist of just dipoles, a grid just for UHF, and a combination dipole and loop, and they all receive dtv relatively well.
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post #6175 of 6754 Old 05-14-2009, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr100watt View Post

kev4321 - thanks for all the links in your posts.

I did go to the FCC "DTV Reception Maps,"
( http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ )
entered my zip code, clicked on the "go" button, and nothing happened. I reentered a different address and same result. Moving the cursor on top of the "go" button resulted in no change of appearance to the cursor symbol, so it looks like that page has an inactive interactive feature in that regards.

Also - the FCC page on antennas instructs people to get an antenna that has dipoles (for VHF) and a loop (for UHF) for dtv reception.

I use antennas that consist of just dipoles, a grid just for UHF, and a combination dipole and loop, and they all receive dtv relatively well.

Regardless of what their site may make you think, an email I got back when I inquired about wrong results for entering my ZIP code said that a more exact address (such as community name & state) is better. Also, it may have been temporarily down to do some corrections. What I had called their attention to was when entering my ZIP code I was taken to the area around a different town in an the next state west of me!
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post #6176 of 6754 Old 05-14-2009, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

I'd like some more details about this. CECB models, shows, networks, etc.

Not all models of CECB recognize AFD.

What I have seen on various models of CECBs -
3 modes - Zoom (centercut fullscreen), Letterbox (16:9 picture in 4:3 screen, bllack bars top and bottom), Full ( tall /skinny)

You get various pictures depending on what the source image is. If the image is in 4:3, just about all modes will default you to a 4:3 full screen image on a 4:3 TV.

Here's a data point for channels in Denver
Box is a Zenith DTT901

KRMA 6.1, 6.3 (PBS) - anytime I hit the zoom button I get the "Aspect Ratio cannot be changed on this channel" message.

Ion 59.1, 59.2, 59.3 - ditto
59.4 allows zoom mode changes

KUSA (NBC) 9.2 (weather), 9.3 (univeral sports) displays cannot change message
9.1 - allows me to change - Today show on.



CBS and ABC are also allowing zooms modes to switch during their morning shows.

update - addl info: all channels that won't allow any change on the zoom function are in 4:3.
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post #6177 of 6754 Old 05-14-2009, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by kev4321 View Post

welcome.

I'm not sure what this refers to. Do you mean that the DTVPal would let you keep your cable line connected to your Panasonic EH50?

I would say yes if you had a Panasonic model that actually supported two inputs simultaneously.
But without that I don't see how. Though I did see an A/B switch mentioned to someone else in your area with WOW cable here (8/13/08).

Thanks again for responding. I am not even sure if the EH55, which has the option for to inputs simulateously would serve my purpose. I think the A/B switch would only allow for OTA listings, not my available cable channels.

What I want may not be possible. I want my original option of programming my DVR to record my cable programs using the TVGOS listings. Later today I might try going through my digital cable box and see if the listings come up that way.

Only that requires a major reconfiguring of my home intertainment setup.

Yes I get your problem now of having too many OTA channel listings. I only thought you were getting cable listings that were available from your cable connection via the DTVPal plus.

Dan
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post #6178 of 6754 Old 05-14-2009, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jafi1 View Post

Here's a data point for channels in Denver
Box is a Zenith DTT901

KRMA 6.1, 6.3 (PBS) - anytime I hit the zoom button I get the "Aspect Ratio cannot be changed on this channel" message.

Ion 59.1, 59.2, 59.3 - ditto
59.4 allows zoom mode changes

KUSA (NBC) 9.2 (weather), 9.3 (univeral sports) displays cannot change message
9.1 - allows me to change - Today show on.

CBS and ABC are also allowing zooms modes to switch during their morning shows.

Break it out further by stating what aspect ratio the program is in. I'll bet the ones you can't change are already 4:3.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

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post #6179 of 6754 Old 05-14-2009, 07:56 AM
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Break it out further by stating what aspect ratio the program is in. I'll bet the ones you can't change are already 4:3.

Right, they're in 4:3 and won't let you switch to letterbox etc.
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post #6180 of 6754 Old 05-14-2009, 09:24 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Youngsville, NC USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jafi1 View Post

Right, they're in 4:3 and won't let you switch to letterbox etc.

And this is a problem ?

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

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