Dish DTVPal / Echostar TR40 digital to analog converter - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Might've been somewhere else then, or in one of the posts after the review.

I swear I absolutely did see a screen shot of the timer page somewhere - I just can't remember where.

I, too, saw a screen-shot, and "time" and "channel" columns were nowhere to be found.
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post #812 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

That third picture in that block of five shows it pefectly. Thanks.

OK. All I had seen was the Satelliteguys screen-shot.
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post #813 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 12:35 PM
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Some outstanding questions about this box:

1. What IRblaster code will it work with? Expected answer: Echostar.
2. Can you tune directly to subchannels using on the number keys without a period? This is important for recording devices like older Showstopper/ReplayTV models. A few CECBs can e.g. tune to 2.2 by entering 022, while entering 22 will go to 22.1.
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post #814 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewilen View Post

2. Can you tune directly to subchannels using on the number keys without a period? This is important for recording devices like older Showstopper/ReplayTV models. A few CECBs can e.g. tune to 2.2 by entering 022, while entering 22 will go to 22.1.

I didn't try very hard, but to get 9-2 for example, I had to hit 00902 (it's displayed as 009-02). Kinda kludgy - perhaps there's a more efficient way I haven't found. Just hitting 9 will bring up 009-01 as you suspect.

Another question I saw earlier - instead of using the onscreen keyboard, yes you can use the numbers keys on the remote like a multi-tap cell phone keyboard. Just verified it.
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post #815 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle_Joe View Post

It was just a name change, and everyone knows it.

My distributor has the product named as the DTVPal and the manufacturer's model number as TR40. This product was SKUed up thanks to my efforts in putting the 2 organizations together. My distributor wouldn't have put TR40 as the model number if they weren't told to do so.

Attached is a snapshot of an email from my distributor from March 27th for your enjoyment.
LL
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post #816 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seatacboy View Post

50% price increase from $40 to $60, after extensively bragging about the low price with a capital L and capital P.

I seriously doubt the DTVPal outperforms the Zenith 901 at the same price point.

$40 to $60 is NOT a 50% increase. Close to 39.4% increase. Still wrong what they did to john though
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post #817 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:07 PM
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There was a post on usenet claiming that the DTVPal was advertised on a Dishnetwork.com webpage for $42.50, but later disappeared.

Anyway, I noticed that one of the approved vendors (The Twister Group) had it listed for $39.XX before the page vanished on Thursday. Now, that site makes no mention of the DTVPal.

Wonder who is going to sell the box? If not retail, it looks like the majority will just be via dtvpal.com.
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post #818 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:09 PM
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Acttually, lexus, 40 to 60 is a 50% increase, it is (60-40)/40 = 20/40 = 50%. To determine change, one takes the difference divided by the old amount, not the new amount.

Now, if you look at it as free vs. 20, it's an infinitely larger increase.
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post #819 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexus2108 View Post

$40 to $60 is NOT a 50% increase. Close to 39.4% increase. Still wrong what they did to john though

Interesting math. Everywhere I've been when the product is raised by half the orginal price (20 is half of 40), that equals a 50% increase.
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post #820 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ja2bk View Post

Interesting math. Everywhere I've been when the product is raised by half the orginal price (20 is half of 40), that equals a 50% increase.

I love fuzzy math. seriously You take the total cost not 20 is half of $40

If the original price was $40 and the new Increased price is $60 That is almost a 34% increase from $40.

In any case I am on your side guys it was wrong on many fronts
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post #821 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:20 PM
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One more try: I think you are thinking of price reductions.

A $20 reduction off $60 is 33% off, 20/60
But a $20 increase from $40 is 50% up, 20/40

In both case, the referent is the current price [the price before the change].
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post #822 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:24 PM
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Yes, but in this case, a 50% increase means a net reduction for me....how do we calculate that??
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post #823 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:28 PM
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Mosquito, they aren't changing the wholesale price by 50%, are they? I sure hope not. In your case, no sale = a lot of unpaid time. I calculate that a shame.

There may be something to this insistence it's a name change. It could prove to be just a bigger mess, but it looks like Provantage was not allowed to sell TR-40 orders, but could sell DTVPal orders, or at least their supplier could. It makes me wonder if Dish is behind the entire mess with Provantage. I was pretty sure SolidSignal used to advertise with both names, but does not now.
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post #824 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:41 PM
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Dude (lexus2108)

2 x 2 = 4

so

40 to 60 is 50%

if you say %34 or %39.4 you can test by doing the following

40 x 1.34 = 53.60
40 x 1.394 = 55.76

53.60 or 55.76 does not equal 60

the correct answer is:

40 x 1.5 = 60

Its %50 dude.
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post #825 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Mosquito, they aren't changing the wholesale price by 50%, are they? I sure hope not. In your case, no sale = a lot of unpaid time. I calculate that a shame.

There may be something to this insistence it's a name change. It could prove to be just a bigger mess, but it looks like Provantage was not allowed to sell TR-40 orders, but could sell DTVPal orders, or at least their supplier could. It makes me wonder if Dish is behind the entire mess with Provantage. I was pretty sure SolidSignal used to advertise with both names, but does not now.

The wholesale price never came into the discussion because we are never going to get product. If the price was simply going up, this would be a much easier process, but we're left sitting here with nothing.
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post #826 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexus2108 View Post

(First post)$40 to $60 is NOT a 50% increase. Close to 39.4% increase. Still wrong what they did to john though

(Second post, after being corrected on the seventh-grade math error)I love fuzzy math. seriously You take the total cost not 20 is half of $40

If the original price was $40 and the new Increased price is $60 That is almost a 34% increase from $40.

In any case I am on your side guys it was wrong on many fronts

Here's Dr. Math's discussion of percentage changes.

I think we all agree this goes on Charlie's Wall of Cheese. Disappointingly, it doesn't get a particularly prominent spot because of the strong competition.

East Lansing (Lansing, MI DMA) A/V enthusiast getting content from xfinity, Netflix, OTA and off the shelf-o'-discs. A 4228 in the attic is almost good enough.
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post #827 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Yeah, really. It was the TR-40 that went through testing and approval, not the DTVPal. And as Dish has said, TR = Transition and 40 = $40.

If only that logic could be applied to the up-coming TR-50...

TR-50 = Transition $50. Add 50% for last minute box redesign, makes the cost of the TR-50 $75.

Enjoying crystal clear TV for free.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
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post #828 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:44 PM
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"1. What IRblaster code will it work with? Expected answer: Echostar."

I suspect the answer is Scientific Atlanta based on what I read here:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachme...4&d=1213210358 (see page 25).

Speaking of that scan, hey Dave, can you scan page 2 (hardware setup) and page 28 (substitute zip codes) to help us figure out once and for all if the thing is going to feed old analog TVGuide On Screen devices (like my Panny E85H and other people's Sony HD DVRs)? Thanks!

Also, why don't they just sell the thing for $49.95 and say the cost increase is due to oil, wreckless gov't spending, inflationary Federal Reserve policy, etc. It would still be cheaper on the shelf than Zenith, etc. Heck, even $54.99 or something might be good enough.

Also, Start -> All Programs -> Accessories -> Calculator and then "40+50%=" and see what you get
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post #829 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 02:45 PM
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It wasn't logic, Whidbey, it apparently came from Charlie's mouth in a Charlie Chat. Maybe he was thinking TR-500. Dream on, Charlie. But I like your math better, Whidbey.
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post #830 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootymonger View Post

Speaking of that scan, hey Dave, can you scan page 2 (hardware setup) and page 28 (substitute zip codes) to help us figure out once and for all if the thing is going to feed old analog TVGuide On Screen devices (like my Panny E85H and other people's Sony HD DVRs)? Thanks!

YES!!! would really appreciate this info (esp page 28!!!) Thanks

OTA only. For signal strength at your location: FCC DTV reception map
TVGOS data: Sony 250 from 5.1?, LG3410a from my DTVPal setup here, not any more.

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post #831 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle_Joe View Post

The Zenith remote controls a lot more than TV on/off. There's a cc button and a last channel button, for example. Does the Dish remote have a last channel button?

Those buttons control the Zenith converter--they don't control the television set, which is what my comment was about. The Zenith remote only controls one function on the TV itself, and that's the power.
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post #832 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Mosquito, they aren't changing the wholesale price by 50%, are they? I sure hope not. In your case, no sale = a lot of unpaid time. I calculate that a shame.

There may be something to this insistence it's a name change. It could prove to be just a bigger mess, but it looks like Provantage was not allowed to sell TR-40 orders, but could sell DTVPal orders, or at least their supplier could. It makes me wonder if Dish is behind the entire mess with Provantage. I was pretty sure SolidSignal used to advertise with both names, but does not now.

I really think that Provantage is behind the Provantage mess. I remember seeing a post that mentioned that Provantage had "returned" the money to the governnment that had been charged against the cards. While I have not seen the terms that the retailers are bound by, I strongly suspect that billing the government/taxpayers for product that Provantage had not even received, let alone shipped, is against the terms, and likely a fraud, which which explain why they were tossd out of the program.

Notice that freedtv does not have the same problem. He was able to just tell people to use their cards at another retailer when he could not get the product. It would appear that, as a reputable business person, he recorded the card numbers, but was not going to charge them until he had product available for shipment.
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post #833 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenavs View Post

I really think that Provantage is behind the Provantage mess. I remember seeing a post that mentioned that Provantage had "returned" the money to the governnment that had been charged against the cards. While I have not seen the terms that the retailers are bound by, I strongly suspect that billing the government/taxpayers for product that Provantage had not even received, let alone shipped, is against the terms, and likely a fraud, which which explain why they were tossd out of the program.

Notice that freedtv does not have the same problem. He was able to just tell people to use their cards at another retailer when he could not get the product. It would appear that, as a reputable business person, he recorded the card numbers, but was not going to charge them until he had product available for shipment.

One difference, though, is that Provantage was allowing people to use coupons that were due to expire *prior* to mid-June (as in my case). For those of us who were early adopters that was a difference that made a difference and, obviously, required Provantage to do some sort of processing prior to mid-june...otherwise the coupon numbers would have been rejected as expired.

As it stands now, my Provantage preorder of 5/14 is still alive and they processed a charge for the difference to my credit card on 6/13, so we shall see....
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post #834 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 05:23 PM
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To followup...it seems to me that the blame for much of the mess with the Coupons can be laid at the feet of Dish. Granted Maxmedia was a disaster, but it seems that the vast majority of people who got caught by the 90 day expiration were people who had applied early and wanted the TR-40/DTVPal.

Originally these boxes were to ship in limited numbers in March and in quantity a bit later. And, via public pronouncements, were to retail in the $40 range. Thus, those of us who wanted this box requested our coupons with the thought of getting these unique boxes before the expirations reared their head.

Next thing you know, Dish is pushing back the delivery dates and those of us who had, in good faith, relied on their time estimates were stuck. Pre-orders via Provantage were the only avenue to try and use the coupons we requested on the CECB we had desired.

Then Dish changed the name/product number of the CECB.

Then, they announced a price increase days before shipping.

Finally, they appear to have had some sort of second thoughts about how and where to sell these boxes and are backing out of distribution agreements.

Personally, if I were a retailer that had expended time and money on their prior promises, I would be looking for compensation from them on the basis of detrimental reliance...Dish had made representations and assurances both publicly and privately and, relying on those, these retailers expended time and effort.

Heck, as an end user, if my purchase were to fall flat, I would look to my AG to see if they could get something to shake based on this same principle...I know I ordered my coupons based on their public pronouncements of time and cost and they have failed on both counts. As such, my coupons are past their expiration and the opportunity to use one for an alternative box has passed.
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post #835 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jehrler View Post

One difference, though, is that Provantage was allowing people to use coupons that were due to expire *prior* to mid-June (as in my case). For those of us who were early adopters that was a difference that made a difference and, obviously, required Provantage to do some sort of processing prior to mid-june...otherwise the coupon numbers would have been rejected as expired.

As it stands now, my Provantage preorder of 5/14 is still alive and they processed a charge for the difference to my credit card on 6/13, so we shall see....

Are you saying it was OK for Provantage to perpetrate a fraud on the taxpayers, because their customers were participants in the fraud?
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post #836 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by kenavs View Post

Are you saying it was OK for Provantage to perpetrate a fraud on the taxpayers, because their customers were participants in the fraud?

Obviously not. What I am saying is that there are stipulations in the NTIA program that envisioned allowing redemption of coupons prior to product shipping, provided that, the product would be delivered within 60 days. Acting under their reading of that provision and, presumably, a firm commitment of some number of DTVPals by a given date, Provantage felt they were able to sell these CECB and utilitize these coupons within the accepted provisions of the program.

There is some question as to whether online retailers were entitled to utilize that provision and, not having read the full contract, I am not willing to opine on that.

Regardless, however, this entire discussion would be academic *if Dish had delivered the product at the price and time originally announced.* Moreover, the continuing issue of order cancellations on the eve of shipping have nothing to do with the 60 day provision and everything to do with Dish changing their pricing and distribution strategies at the very, very last minute. Thus, throwing FUD into a situation already complicated by their earlier failures.
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post #837 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 05:42 PM
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I will admit that the stipulations regarding preorders/backorders were grossly unclear from the start of this program. The fact of the matter is that the program is designed for brick and mortar retailers and didn't account for your normal online sales tactics. I mean, come on, who hasn't preordered something from Amazon?

Anyway, I guess my point is that it is pretty easy to fall into the coupon cashing trap if you didn't happen to read the regulations as thoroughly as you should (and who does?). There is also a stipulation in the final rule that retailers will not be penalized for problems that they didn't intentionally commit, although not reading everything thoroughly is no excuse for that, I guess.

My biggest struggle with all of this is that the manufacturers appear to be getting off with very little oversight, and the retailers are where the heavy hand of the law is being slammed down.
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post #838 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 05:44 PM
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My other struggle is that the reasoning behind much of the NTIA's oversight on retailers has been under the guise of "consumer protection." If this last minute price and availability change doesn't scream of violating consumer protections, I don't know what does.
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post #839 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 05:49 PM
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I guess I'm one of the few that ordered a DTVPal through Provantage even though my coupon wasn't going to expire until June 23rd...I could have waited until it was released near the end of June but I jumped too quickly on the deal :/ I learned my esson never to pre-order with coupons for unreleased/unsure products again. I'm also discouraged to even buy the DTVPal because it has caused so much trouble...I don't feel like supporting Dish Network for this.
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post #840 of 6754 Old 06-14-2008, 06:45 PM
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If the gov't had any common sense they'd just make all the cards expire in July '09 or something and put unused money back in the general fund instead of recycling the expired funds into new cards and running out of postage. Or, if no coupon program existed at all, companies might be selling these boxes for less than $40 already (or maybe not).

I suppose I'm getting off topic. So yes, whoever is running the DTVPal release has done a good job of keeping everyone in the dark and it's rather lame. I do wonder how many other products have these screwy release issues and we don't notice b/c we don't sit around reading forums about it
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