Dish DTVPal / Echostar TR40 digital to analog converter - Page 76 - AVS Forum
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post #2251 of 6754 Old 07-04-2008, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

MicroProse MPI-500PT* was amended to the NTIA list on 7/09/08

Could you clarify this a little?
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post #2252 of 6754 Old 07-04-2008, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

The DISH receiver has no OTA tuner; the antenna signal is just passed through if the receiver is turned off (or is on but not in "satellite" mode). It's just like the "analog pass-through" function on CECBs like the DTVPal.

It depends on which DISH receiver model you are referring to.
The newer DISH HD receivers also have OTA digital tuners. Models 811, 921 and the DVR Vip211 are some examples. That's why DISH screens current customers that place orders for the DTV Pal. For $100 they will install/upgrade to the HD receiver and antenna. Even if you don't subscribe to any HD channels, you would still get Sat SD and OTA digital locals and sub-channels with a receiver that has a nice EPG, S-video, Dolby digital out and a single multi purpose remote. The hardware is yours, not leased. Or you can pay almost as much for the DTV Pal (without coupon).

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If they're paying DISH to get their local channels via satellite (or they don't care about local channels), the DISH receiver they already have is all they need.

Unless someone wants the digital sub-channels. Then they would need a CECB. DISH locals through the Sat doesn't provide local sub-channels.
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post #2253 of 6754 Old 07-04-2008, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagger666 View Post

Agent City NORTHBROOK Secretary Name & Address GREGORY MOGILEVSKY SAME, now my suspicions are solid. anyone named George can't be trusted, my brothers name is George and he is worthless.

how many accounts can one person setup on here under different names

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVaddict42 View Post

Agent Street Address 141 REVERE DR President Name & Address ALINA MOGILEVSKY 41 RED OAK LANE HIGHLAND PARK 60035

This is not the address they advertise on the DigitalStar website. The main issue I was bringing up is their own website advertises an address that is the address of AcoreElectronics of which I called on the phone who said they never heard of them. If a company is using a false address, it's highly suspicious to me and I wouldn't do business without varifying more about them. Also their phone number was linked to 2 other business names when I googled it, so it makes no difference if they have a legit business licence somewhere, the point is locating where and who they are so you can track them down if they don't deliver. What's worse than "vaporware" is "vapor business".

Folks,

The registered agent and the registered address are to whom and where any legal papers filed against a corporation are to be served.  They're almost always the lawyer and the lawyer's office, not the business owner nor the business location.  It's nothing suspect at all that the registered address doesn't match Digitalstar's mailing address on Commercial Avenue in Northbrook (Highland Park is the next town northeast of Northbrook) nor that the registered agent's name is not that of anyone employed by Digitalstar.

Please, if you want to speak ill of them, there are enough truths in their disfavor that you don't have to misinterpret other things to add to the pile.
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post #2254 of 6754 Old 07-04-2008, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthDallasGuy View Post

... I have a high def television (LG LCD) with it's own digital tuner and I use a basic antenna with some amplification on it to pull in the OTA signal. Up until I got my DTVPAL, I would sometimes have to reposition my attenna to get some stations to come in...sort of annoying. After I hooked up my DTVPAL to use the same attenna (in other words, the TV and DTVPAL are using the same attenna at the same time), all of a sudden my television's high def signal is coming in much better and I no longer have to move the antenna to pull in some stations. My question is: Could the DTVPAL somehow be boosting the antenna's signal and in turn my digital TV is getting a stronger signal? That is the only explanation I can come up with...in any case, I think I got an added benefit from my DTVPAL that I never expected.

You didn't say just how you hooked up the DTVPal and the HDTV to the same antenna, but there are two likely possibilities:

1. You used a splitter between the antenna and the DTVPal and TV. Since a splitter would weaken the signal and your reception got better, chances are the antenna's amp was overloading the TV's tuner with a too-strong signal. This could be due to a TV or, more likely, an FM radio transmitter very near your home. If it's the latter, an FM trap installed between the antenna and the amp would solve the problem.

2. You hooked the antenna to the DTVPal, then hooked the DTVPal to the TV, taking advantage of its analog pass-through. If this is the case, the problem could still be overload (and the DTVPal's pass-through is weakening the RF signal slightly) or it could be the signal is still too weak and the pass-through amplifies it slightly. Try switching to the above configuration: if it still works, the problem is overload; otherwise, you may need a better amp (or a better antenna).
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post #2255 of 6754 Old 07-04-2008, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

lgodave,

Do you think a new poll thread should be started to keep track of the number of users and where they purchased?

Here are some possible questions for the poll (I will let you create)

Thanks Malouff I hadn't considered a poll thread (it'll be my first). Good idea. Hope you don't mind but I'll probably crib your suggested statements. I'll try to keep it simple.
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post #2256 of 6754 Old 07-04-2008, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cia_viewer View Post

Can the timers, Etc... Turn On to record a DTV program then Turn Off to record an Analog TV program then Turn back On to record a DTV program?

If someone with one of these units has replied to you, I have missed it. I have read enough to think I would not configure it so that I had to depend on it working that way all the time if the main purpose was to drive an analog tuner equipped VCR or DVD recorder. I would feed my antenna to a splitter. I would feed one output of the splitter to the RF input on the recorder and the other to RF input of the DTVpal. I would feed the A/V out of the DTVpal to the Line in of the recorder. That way, the recorder would do the analog stations on its own, and the DTVpal would provide the converted digital stations to the line in. If the the TV has no digital tuner, but does have A/V inputs, you could conect the RF out of the DTVpal to the TV and the A/V out to the A/V in of the TV.
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post #2257 of 6754 Old 07-04-2008, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenavs View Post

Could you clarify this a little?

MicroProse was selling the MPI-500PT* and the NTIA did not allow it because it was not on the approved list just the digital only MPI-500 was.

It was actually the second/third PassThru CECB sold behind the Philco/Magnavox

I think it will be really good converter and have much interest in owning one.
It is like the Zenith DTT901* but has more on box controls and a external power supply.
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post #2258 of 6754 Old 07-04-2008, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenavs View Post

If someone with one of these units has replied to you, I have missed it.

I think that somebody did confirm that once the box comes on for a programmed recording, It doesn't shut off.

Unless maybe it was in the "other" huge DTVPal thread. (And they want to start yet another one?)
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post #2259 of 6754 Old 07-04-2008, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmcewin View Post

I have read that others are having trouble picking up the local PBS stations. I have the Pal and the Zenith 901 and neither will pick up 13.1. Have a dish sat 622 that does pick up the pbs channel 13 just fine.

What channel is your pbs on?

Thanks,
Henry

Our PBS digital is on real channel 41 and is mapped to channels 9-1, 9-2, 9-3 and 9-5 (HD).

My Insignia unit is almost the same as your Zenith, except mine does not have analog pass through.

I do receive PBS on my Insignia unit.

Dave
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post #2260 of 6754 Old 07-04-2008, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

MicroProse was selling the MPI-500PT* and the NTIA did not allow it because it was not on the approved list just the digital only MPI-500 was.

It was actually the second/third PassThru CECB sold behind the Philco/Magnavox

I think it will be really good converter and have much interest in owning one.
It is like the Zenith DTT901* but has more on box controls and a external power supply.

Does "MicroProse MPI-500PT* was amended to the NTIA list on 7/09/08" mean that it will become an authorized product on 7/9/08?
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post #2261 of 6754 Old 07-04-2008, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquelyme View Post

It's not just yours. Mine also goes through downloading guide information every time you turn it on, and I too find it very annoying.

It's becoming clear that the DTVPal was not adequately tested and debugged prior to starting up the production line.

Doesn't it make sense that if you left your Pal off for, let's say a week, and then turn it on wouldn't your program information be out of sync? How is your Pal supposed to know you haven't turned your unit on for X amount of days, weeks, months etc..?

I personally do not see this as an issue, but rather an easier way of keeping up to date on programming information with out detailed internal programming. After all, more sophisticated units will most likely hit the market after everyone has purchased these early 'prototypes'.

Just my 2 cents.
Dennis

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post #2262 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenavs View Post

Does "MicroProse MPI-500PT* was amended to the NTIA list on 7/09/08" mean that it will become an authorized product on 7/9/08?

Thank you for finding my mistake
It was suppose to say 7/3/08.

I have been talking to lexus2108 about his DTVPal that was suppose to arrive on 7/9/08 and must have put that into my signature without thinking.

What it does mean is that it should be moved to the Available list SOON
As soon as I find out when it's available I will be sure to post in the MicroProse thread and update my signature.
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post #2263 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 12:15 AM
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I have updated my list for the DTVPal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

So far there are 9 online retailers.

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post #2264 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlt123me View Post

How is your Pal supposed to know you haven't turned your unit on for X amount of days, weeks, months etc..?

What's so complicated about comparing the date/time of the last guide update to the current data/time and not bothering to update the guide again unless a significant amount of time has elapsed?
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post #2265 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquelyme View Post

What's so complicated about comparing the date/time of the last guide update to the current data/time and not bothering to update the guide again unless a significant amount of time has elapsed?

It might have to turn off DRAM memory to comply with EnergyStar requirements. It has no Hard Drive or Flash to store things persistantly.
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post #2266 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 03:27 AM
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On Dish Sat/Pal IR remote conflicts:

So has anyone tried to cover the IR reciever on the Sat box ?

I'm guessing that the remote's channels numbers only apply to the UHF signal, and that it always sends the same IR codes. You really don't need the Sat box to recieve IR remote signals if it's already recieving UHF codes (except for Tuner 1 of the dual tuner Sat boxes, but those are the newer models that are reported as working).

The Sat box probably has to always respond to the codes on channel#0 for stuff like a TVGOS recorder controlling the Sat box, and it has to always respond to On/Off, 0-9, and other basic signals for automated control.

BTW, has anyone tried to control a Pal box in TVGOS mode ? Doesn't it emulate some cable box in this mode ? If you could program the AUX of an old Dish remote to this emulated box, then you control two Pal boxes in one room with IR using a single remote. One would lose all the nice features, but at least you'd have some basic functionality watching live TV while your other PAL box is busy recording something.
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post #2267 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiascon View Post

It might have to turn off DRAM memory to comply with EnergyStar requirements. It has no Hard Drive or Flash to store things persistantly.

Then how does it remember configuration settings, timers, last channel selected, etc? Clearly it does store things persistantly.
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post #2268 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiascon View Post

BTW, has anyone tried to control a Pal box in TVGOS mode ? Doesn't it emulate some cable box in this mode ?

Yes, a Scientific Atlanta STB.
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post #2269 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiascon View Post

It might have to turn off DRAM memory to comply with EnergyStar requirements. It has no Hard Drive or Flash to store things persistantly.

DTVPal is not on the CECB (DTA) EnergyStar list.
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post #2270 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

DTVPal is not on the CECB (DTA) EnergyStar list.

it isn't on the list made on 06/03/08 at

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=dta.pr_dta

but conforming to Energy Star standards is required of CECB (I thought)

maybe just different agencies with different documents that don't all agree or are up to date
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post #2271 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 07:51 AM
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EnergyStar compliance is permitted, but not required. CECBs must meet 2W sleep energy standards, and EnergyStar sleep standard is <1W.
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post #2272 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 08:30 AM
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This whole DTVPal fiasco demonstrates why so few vendors of TVs and STB's have implemented multi-day multi-channel PSIP based EPGs in their products. It's just too difficult and buggy to implement. PSIP EPGs in their current implementation stink and the minimum requirements not been properly enforced by the FCC. Firmware writers have to get around the following problems.

1. PSIP EPG data is only obtainable for a given channel if the device is tuned to that channel. The box must keep track of multiple sources of EPG data. From a computer science point of view this is MUCH more difficult to do (dynamic memory allocation of multiple data structures of variable length) compared to a single consolidated source of EPG data from TV Guide or Dish Network. Given the severe memory/CPU limitations of embedded devices this a show stopper.
2. Some stations only transmit "DTV Program" in their PSIP stream which for all practical purposes is blank data. Blank data is invalid data and must be refreshed.
3. Some stations only transmit useable program information for up to 4-8 hours in advance. The rest of the information is blank, again more missing data.
4. Some programs have detailed programming information, others do not.
5. As per FCC mandate EPG data is subject to change to account for on the fly programming changes. Previously retrieved data may now be invalid.
6. Some stations transmit the wrong time of day. How does the box know the correct time?

Given the above it is no mystery why the DTVPal must re-poll all channels for EPG data when its powered up. The previously cached data is far too unreliable to trust.

A far better approach would have been if the FCC required that all TV stations within the same market area pool their EPG data together into a single stream. That way if you are tuned to a station in your market area, you recieve ALL the program data for EVERY station in your market area.
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post #2273 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhenley View Post

I can't find any way to fix the clock and it is 11 minutes slow. I assume it uses something from a local channel the same way my analog PBS updates VCRs, etc.

That is definitely a PSIP problem, NOT the fault of the converter box. We had the same problem in our area and (for me) it was easy to find which station was putting out the wrong clock data. My HDTV (with a digital tuner) displays the time whenever you switch stations. When I switched to one of the local stations (and it was a PBS station) the clock jumped back 4 minutes. I called the station engineer and he said that they were having equipment problems and they had to set the clock (manually) daily. The problem has been long ago fixed but I bet one of your local stations has the same problem. I have no idea of how the DTVPal sets its clock but it may be from the PBS stations (all stations' PSIP data has the clock signal but maybe the software only looks at the PBS data).

Quote:


I'll try some manaully set timers tomorrow.

I have been testing the timers a lot. I have had no problems with timers that I set manually. Even if I edit them later they all fire correctly.

If I set some timers from the EPG I get mixed results. If I set one from the EPG and turn the box off after setting it, the timer fires correctly. If I set one from the EPG and edit it (for example to make it a daily timer instead on a one time) it may or may not fire. This clearly needs more testing on my part.

Here is a bug that I can clearly duplicate: If you have a timer set and have the box on and happen to turn off the box when the coundown timer starts the timer will NOT occur and the box will not turn itself back on.

One thing that I don't understand is why the software designers decided to leave the box turn on after a timer turns it on and it completes its "mission". If you set a timer for 30 minutes I see no reason for the box to stay on after that event is over.

Bill R
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post #2274 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyager View Post

This whole DTVPal fiasco demonstrates why so few vendors of TVs and STB's have implemented multi-day multi-channel PSIP based EPGs in their products.

I think that's a bit strong. The word fiasco is defined as, "a complete failure." I hardly think that definition applies to the DTVPal. As with any new technology, there are going to be growing pains, and digital television is no different. I have yet to see any digital device that doesn't have a bug or two. After all, these devices are programmed by human beings who cannot possibly program for every potential circumstance. There will no doubt be improvements in the DTVPal as there have been in other CECBs, but in my opinion, this unit has delivered as well as most other CECBs on the market.
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post #2275 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 10:02 AM
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Did anyone get a dish network statement for your dtvpal.com dtvpal order June 26. It says on the back dtvpal but the chargers are way off. they have a strange way of doing billing, in detail chargers section which is the cost of the dtvpal 34.88 and 40.00 coupon for total -74.88. then one time charge section is 8.95 shipping, 59.99 dtvpal equipment charge for total 68.94. taxes section list 5.94 total do - do not pay 0.00. how can you pay 0.00 dollars.

Account summary reads
previous balance 0.00,
payment thank you -74.88,
current chargers 68.94,
taxes 5.94.
total due 0.00
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post #2276 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill R (# 2) View Post

Here is a bug that I can clearly duplicate: If you have a timer set and have the box on and happen to turn off the box when the coundown timer starts the timer will NOT occur and the box will not turn itself back on.

I found that hitting pass-thru button during the countdown is just plain ignored. By the time the 2 minute countdown starts, the Event is essentially "over". A Once timer is gone from the list by then, so the Off isn't going to Fire and turn On if you do it during Countdown. If Daily, it would still be in the list, but I doubt it would trigger after the countdown starts. Triggering produces the countdown.

I don't know if the DTVPal uses whatever time you get from the currently selected channel, picks lowest channel number time, averages them, ... to decide when to switch to another channel. My 11 minutes behind time is nowhere to be found this morning. And for the first time since Monday, mine turned ON for an Event when Off. I do have T101 software, so Event issues may be DMA / station related as well.

More testing is now required as I also no longer see behavior I saw on Monday - dropping to 1W power use. It *may* be that as long as I have a future Event, it drops from 5W to 4W on Power off (or Pass-Thru button) but never drops to 1W after 10 minutes or so of "off".

A 2nd Event for 10AM just fired from Off, but when it was really 10AM, the count down was still 1:25 to go. I appear to be about 1:25 late on every channel I select, I think I need to find out how the DTVPal picks a time for its clock.

Edit Afterthought:
Quote:


One thing that I don't understand is why the software designers decided to leave the box turn on after a timer turns it on and it completes its "mission". If you set a timer for 30 minutes I see no reason for the box to stay on after that event is over.

Notice that the Events are all listed as Auto-Tune events. I don't mean to imply this box will eventually support other types of events (TR50 may use much of the code), but this box does EXACTLY what a DISH receiver would do with an Auto-Tune, and leave it on at completion, waiting for Idle inactivity to turn it into something else. It may be that the decision for many things was "like we already do it"??
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post #2277 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 10:46 AM
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So i haven't been here in a while, and i was Wondering if someone would post a list of all the known problems and bugs. I would greatly apprciate it, and so would others I'm sure. thanks

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post #2278 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhenley View Post

.

I don't know if the DTVPal uses whatever time you get from the currently selected channel,

Yes, that is how the PAL gets its time.
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post #2279 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagger666 View Post

man, all i said digitalstar was suspicious when another said he could not find info on them and how it has steam rolled. i don't know why someone keep defending them when he hasn't gotten his box yet either. i do not want another maxmedia and really hope i get my box. now i haven't hooked up the box i got from dish direct but sending out buggy product is Microsoft move. that is what i asked in another post, what dish meant by all sales final.

Finley got an email from Digitalstar the PAL is in the mail. They are ok if you
want to save a few bucks or don't want to buy from Dish and are OK with
not knowing whats going on until you get the its in the mail email.
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post #2280 of 6754 Old 07-05-2008, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquelyme View Post

What's so complicated about comparing the date/time of the last guide update to the current data/time and not bothering to update the guide again unless a significant amount of time has elapsed?

I don't know, this is a question for the Pal folks. It looks like they didn't do this... after all, they program the units, not us... Logic doesn't always find it's way into coding...

Besides, who cares, I waste more time on this thread than I will waiting for my programming guide to update.

I'm just glad I'm getting better PQ than before on my bedroom TV.

BTW, has it been established that this is happening on all units?

Dennis

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