Tivax STB-T9 EPG - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 274 Old 05-02-2008, 04:33 PM
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Tivax has a heatsink and ventilation holes, funias do not.
Tivax has a serial port for any future hacks/upgrades funias do not.
Tivax has one step controls on the remote and funias require multiple steps through menu.
Tivax has channel controls on unit, funias do not
Tivax goes back to tuned channel after power loss, funias go into standby and must be powered on and retuned to channel.
Tivax has better graphics, funias look like a 1980s commodore 64.
Tivax has metal chassis, Funia is plastic.
Tivax has a better size remote that actually works, Funias remote is like a 1980s sears color TV remote control, buttons are microscopic and dont make contact well.

Seeing a pattern everybody?

Tivax is more feature rich.
The small gain in tuner sensitivity is not enough to matter.

funias = any magnavox,sylvania,philco
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post #62 of 274 Old 05-02-2008, 05:32 PM
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Just received the Tivax box today. One thing I don't like about it already is the zoom functions. If tuned to a HD channel broadcasting upconverted 4:3 content the normal mode results in a picture with black all around (postage stamp effect). This is normal and I fully expect this and the box does give you the choice to zoom the picture to fill the screen. If the zoom mode is on for a HD channel, it is also on for standard def channels resulting in an overzoomed picture. The Tivax doesn't compensate the zoom function between HD & SD broadcast stations. Yes you can put the zoom mode back to normal for SD channels but it's an inconvenience to keep switching zoom modes between HD & SD channels every time you flip channels.
I also have the Channel Master CM-7000 and it can be set to fill a 4:3 screen without having to switch zoom modes between HD & SD channels. And yes I'm fully aware that HD channels (when sending HD content) will have the sides cutoff or cropped. My Mom likes to have her picture filling the screen.

Other than the zoom function it's an ok box.
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post #63 of 274 Old 05-02-2008, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboy View Post

you can put the zoom mode back to normal for SD channels but it's an inconvenience to keep switching zoom modes between HD & SD channels every time you flip channels.

I have noticed this too but since you can cycle through the aspect ratio controls very easily with the remote it is a minor inconvience compared to boxes like the magnavox which make you step through the menu system to change anything.

Perhaps this is something they can change in any potential serial updates.
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post #64 of 274 Old 05-02-2008, 06:28 PM
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[quote=satpro;13783338][quote=jimboy;13783098] Yes you can put the zoom mode back to normal for SD channels but it's an inconvenience to keep switching zoom modes between HD & SD channels every time you flip channels.
Quote:



I have noticed this too but since you can cycle through the aspect raios very easily with the remote it is a minor inconvience compared to boxes like the magnavox which make you step through the menu system to change anything.

My Mom won't accept "a minor inconvenience". She just wants it to work as simple as analog tv does. Any box that can fill a 4:3 screen properly without switching anything and doesn't have audio issues with some 5.1 surround channels will work fine for her. For me I agree the aspect switching is minor but it's something that could have been avoided with proper design. All in an effort to keep the cost down?
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post #65 of 274 Old 05-02-2008, 07:58 PM
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Just shows what a failure the cecb approval process really is/was, since all the boxes have flaws, some more then others, the zenith/insignia box audio problem being the worst problem of any box out there, yet people foolishly keep buying them and the stores selling them get away with passing off defective merchandise on the public without any consequences.


The Tivax is still worth the 10-20 bucks out of pocket compared to other boxes out there which are really poorly thought out like magnavox or defective junk like zenith/insignia.
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post #66 of 274 Old 05-04-2008, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satpro View Post

Interested that the only station (39) this box can pull in on my small antenna is 1000 kw. All my comparisons were made between 6-8pm. None of my other boxes perform as poorly as the sansonic, heck my 7 year old dtc 100 has better sensitivity.

Best to worst in sensitivity on my small test antenna.
Funia (walmart)
Coship
Tivax
RCA
Sansonic

I also have various other digital tuners, dmr-ez17 panasonic, voom DSR 5500 OTA (moto), T451 samsung. None are as poor as sansonic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by satpro View Post

Tivax is more feature rich.
The small gain in tuner sensitivity is not enough to matter.

Satpro is the Tivax more feature rich than the Coship too?

You have also said that zenith/insignia are defective junk because of the audio problems.

According to the CECB list the CoShip also has a LG SoC so does it also have audio problems?
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post #67 of 274 Old 05-04-2008, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satpro View Post

Just shows what a failure the cecb approval process really is/was, since all the boxes have flaws, some more then others,

So you expect a less than $50-ish box to be PERFECT? The coupon program is doing exactly what it was designed to do: get boxes out at the lowest cost.

Do you suppose (or expect) all the lesss than $50 DVD players out there to be flawless as well?

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post #68 of 274 Old 05-04-2008, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

Satpro is the Tivax more feature rich than the Coship too?

You have also said that zenith/insignia are defective junk because of the audio problems.

According to the CECB list the CoShip also has a LG SoC so does it also have audio problems?

Yes the Tivax has more features than Coship. And no the Coship does not have the audio problems of other LG based cecb boxes so there imust be some major design differences between them.
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post #69 of 274 Old 05-04-2008, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post

So you expect a less than $50-ish box to be PERFECT?


No I expect it to function as required by the ntia approval process, clearly it is unacceptable for zenith/insignia or any maker to be allowed to continue to participate and profit off of the cecb program when they are not meeting the requirement for functioning audio. Whoever is/was responsible for the approval process is derelict in their duty to insure that these boxes are functional and free of major design flaws like audio problems. Last time I checked audio, video, CC data all went into making a TV signal, but you should know that shouldnt you?

This is a serious matter to people who will really need to rely on these boxes, unlike us hobbyists who play with these boxes for a few days then toss them into a box, some people will need to use these boxes for years to come.
I think it is pretty lousy to think that these same people are paying $25 bucks out of pocket during hard times for a box like the zenith that is malfunctioning.

I bet you are pretty pissed when you receive some gear that does not meet standards so you should relate.
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post #70 of 274 Old 05-04-2008, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satpro View Post

Whoever is/was responsible for the approval process is derelict in their duty to insure that these boxes are functional and free of major design flaws like audio problems.

Similar to FCC approval processes, the CECB program relies on self-certification, so the manufacturer is primarily responsible for testing the boxes and meeting requirements. NTIA approval is based on reviewing test results supplied by manufacturer, and additionally the NTIA reserves the right to perform its own verification. Thus it is not difficult for manufacturers to rush things and/or cut corners yet still obtain approval.

That said, the NTIA rules don't include requirements for audio fidelity (an unfortunate oversight as they do include video quality requirements), so it's frustrating to see zenith/insignia/lg producing an obviously flawed product, but it's not clear they've broken any rules.
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post #71 of 274 Old 05-04-2008, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satpro View Post

No I expect it to function as required by the ntia approval process.

I think that jll544 is correct here. The NTIA is a government entity. I wouldn't
expect them do any more than they have or have to. I'm surprised the program has worked as well as it has.

Do I think the boxes should work better? Yes, but as a beta site for PSIP and broadcast flag implementation I can tell you there are a lot of much more expensive receivers (and TV's) that don't work near as well as some of these coupon boxes. Way too many here, especially newbies who want to TYPE first, THINK second, and READ third..expect way too much of these boxes.

And yea, I don't like it when I get gear that doesn't work right. But I also know enough not to expect a $15 box to work as well as a $1000 product. Not that there's any expensive consumer (or broadcast) products that don't work right either...

Besides, All the retailers and mfg's I have spoken with tell me they are losing money on this program.
I have direct contact with the mfg on one of the boxes so I'm familiar with their side of the story.

Bob

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post #72 of 274 Old 05-04-2008, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post

I also know enough not to expect a $15 box to work ...

Besides, All the retailers and mfg's I have spoken with tell me they are losing money on this program.

Hey wait a minute now, it is not $15, they are getting at least another $40 from the program, multiply that by millions of units sold and you are telling me they are still loosing money? Yea right, then why would any company want to participate, is somebody forcing them to loose money? I think this program is ripe with speculators looking to make a quick buck at the consumers expense, and most of these same speculattors wont be around in 2 years to support these products. Pure speculation but zenith/insignia could have had some bad boards laying around and they have found a nice legal way to dump them and pick up some cash to recoop loses.

As to this whole self certification deal if this is true it proves what a bunch of bull the approval process is.
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post #73 of 274 Old 05-05-2008, 11:54 AM
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[quote=jimboy;13783382][quote=satpro;13783338]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboy View Post

Yes you can put the zoom mode back to normal for SD channels but it's an inconvenience to keep switching zoom modes between HD & SD channels every time you flip channels.

My Mom won't accept "a minor inconvenience". She just wants it to work as simple as analog tv does. Any box that can fill a 4:3 screen properly without switching anything and doesn't have audio issues with some 5.1 surround channels will work fine for her. For me I agree the aspect switching is minor but it's something that could have been avoided with proper design. All in an effort to keep the cost down?

Even if the Tivax have separate zoom settings for HD and SD broadcast. Your mom still won't be happy because the Zoom function may work for one program but not the other. Not all programs are broadcasted in letter box. Your mom will have to use the zoom button eventually.
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post #74 of 274 Old 05-05-2008, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jll544 View Post

Similar to FCC approval processes, the CECB program relies on self-certification, so the manufacturer is primarily responsible for testing the boxes and meeting requirements. NTIA approval is based on reviewing test results supplied by manufacturer, and additionally the NTIA reserves the right to perform its own verification. Thus it is not difficult for manufacturers to rush things and/or cut corners yet still obtain approval.

That said, the NTIA rules don't include requirements for audio fidelity (an unfortunate oversight as they do include video quality requirements), so it's frustrating to see zenith/insignia/lg producing an obviously flawed product, but it's not clear they've broken any rules.

NTIA approval process
(1) Notice of Intent (NOI) submission
(a) A brief description of the converter box, including permitted as well as required features
The date on which the samples and test report for the proposed converter(s) may be ready for submission for review.
(b) Submitting the samples and test report will be electronically sent to the contact person listed in the NOI.

(2) Testing Guidance
(a) Recommended that the tests be performed with a High Definition data stream (i.e., resolution of 720p or higher) with motion.
(b) Field Ensembles (#14): NTIA encourages manufacturers to specify which 30 of the 50 field ensembles identified in ATSC A/74 were tested
successfully.
(c) Single Static Echo (#15): NTIA encourages manufacturers to specify whether the model was tested against Criteria A or Criteria B as defined in Technical Appendix 1. If Criteria B is chosen, manufacturers should identify which 37 of the 50 field ensembles were tested successfully.
(d) EPA Energy Star Program which is a permitted but not required specification for Coupon-Eligible Converter Boxes (CECBs) should seek certification from EPA that the CECB meets all requirements for certification under the EPA program.

(3) Test Report (format and content) guidance
(a) The test report is to be sent to Art Wall, Technical Advisor at NTIA encouraged to submit the test report in an electronic format using Microsoft Word, pdf or jpg type files.
(b) Test reports demonstrate that each model proposed to be a CECB meets all the performance specifications and features set forth in Technical Appendix 1 of the Final Rule as well as applicable FCC Rules.
(c) Each model proposed may include permitted'' features but shall not include disqualifying'' features.
(d) NTIA encourages applicants to include in the test report information such as:
1. An operational description of each proposed CECB.
2. A final copy of the proposed manual that will be provided to the end user.
3. A list of equipment (complete with calibration data) used by the manufacturer when performing each of the required tests.
4. A block diagram showing all the major elements of each proposed CECB.
5. A block diagram depicting the equipment used and the measurement setup for each test.
6. Internal and external photographs of each proposed CECB. The photographs should be of sufficient clarity to show the make and model number on the label, the front panel controls, connection points on the back panel, internal components and circuit board layouts.

(4) shipping of samples
Manufacturers are to supply two production sample converter boxes
shipped to the Bill Hurst; DTV Converter Coupon Program FCC Laboratory

(5) NTIA processing.
The manufacturer's report of each proposed CECB will be reviewed for
accuracy and completeness and to determine:
(1) If the proposed model meets the performance specifications in Technical Appendix 1
(2) If the proposed CECB includes permitted features listed in Technical Appendix 2, that those features function properly
(3) That the proposed CECB does not contain a disqualifying feature.

NTIA/ FCC testing will be performed on some or all of the models.
The level of testing will be based on engineering judgments during the review of the test report.


So I would say that for the most part you were correct jll544

But I don't think that those boxes with a FCC ID are any better.
The CoShip has a FCC ID but both satpro and bdfox18doe did not like it
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post #75 of 274 Old 05-06-2008, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malouff View Post

The CoShip has a FCC ID but both satpro and bdfox18doe did not like it

But No FCC Sticker on it IIRC.

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post #76 of 274 Old 05-08-2008, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satpro View Post


As to this whole self certification deal if this is true it proves what a bunch of bull the approval process is.


Self certification has been the norm for ages at the FCC, they don't test cell phones, for example, they take the test report, review it.. and certify if things look good.



John
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post #77 of 274 Old 05-08-2008, 08:01 PM
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In other words rubber stamped certification, doesn't surprise me that this is how it works! I was speaking of NTIA certification but I assume all bureaucracies with allegiance to special interest and not the public interest operate in the same way!
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post #78 of 274 Old 05-10-2008, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satpro View Post

! I assume all bureaucracies with allegiance to special interest and not the public interest operate in the same way!

I assumed that was the way our government operates anyway..

Bob

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post #79 of 274 Old 05-10-2008, 01:10 PM
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Does anyone know if you can add channels with this unit? I live in a fringe reception area and use a rotator. I'm concerned the autoscan won't find all available channels. I'm staying away from the LGs with the left channel problem. I like the CM-7000, but my coupon wont wait. The only other option is a funia.
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post #80 of 274 Old 05-12-2008, 12:59 PM
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well if digitalstar.com is on the ball i expect my boxes by the end of the week. Should be some fun testing over the weekend i hope(weather permitting). Spring gives me a fair idea of how these tivax boxes will perform in a crappy environment hehe.

A question here as well(you might even classify it as a hypothetical question). All CECB boxes start out as full featured chips right? Then they are "dumbed down" to meet FCC rules on CECB boxes? Is this correct?
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post #81 of 274 Old 05-13-2008, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIVO View Post

well if digitalstar.com is on the ball i expect my boxes by the end of the week. Should be some fun testing over the weekend i hope(weather permitting). Spring gives me a fair idea of how these tivax boxes will perform in a crappy environment hehe.

A question here as well(you might even classify it as a hypothetical question). All CECB boxes start out as full featured chips right? Then they are "dumbed down" to meet FCC rules on CECB boxes? Is this correct?

That's correct. Lots of these tuners are built for OTA,Cable and some even
do European digital tv standards.. ITs cost effective.. THey wouldnt want
to start a line to make chips for a limited production run of chips for a program that will end.. Another reason. Easier to just turn that feature off
in software :P



John.
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post #82 of 274 Old 05-13-2008, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagger666 View Post

If you already have a wide screen tv why would you need a decoder box? None of these will give you HD and please don't tell me you fell for the HD ready tv sold with out the HD tuners. That always seam stupid move to me

Because back when I purchased my wide screen, 1080i, HD TV, they had no built-in HD tuners (no ATSC, no QAM). Just the ol' NTSC tuner.

I still don't think it was a stupid move, as you claim. The alternative you are suggesting would have been to buy a large screen SD 4:3 set, and today I would still have that SD set.

But you do point out a major flaw with the coupon program. It doesn't support all "early adopters" of HD, who now need a HD tuner with 720/1080
component output.
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post #83 of 274 Old 05-13-2008, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnied View Post

That's correct. Lots of these tuners are built for OTA,Cable and some even
do European digital tv standards.. ITs cost effective.. THey wouldnt want
to start a line to make chips for a limited production run of chips for a program that will end.. Another reason. Easier to just turn that feature off
in software

So, what we need is the equivalent to a cell phone's "seem edit", which would re-enable these features?
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post #84 of 274 Old 05-13-2008, 11:27 AM
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the one thing id love to see turned back "on" would be QAM(if its possible) but wouldnt do me much good on 4:3 tv
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post #85 of 274 Old 05-13-2008, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaltA View Post

But you do point out a major flaw with the coupon program. It doesn't support all "early adopters" of HD, who now need a HD tuner with 720/1080 component output.

It's not supposed to. And if you think about it, it really shouldn't have to.

If you want a full-featured piece of A/V gear, go out and spend the money. You really don't expect our government to be subsidizing it, do you? What - are you one of these "Everythings free in America!" kind of immigrants or something?

If you were an early adopter that bought a display without an ATSC tuner, that's your problem. Everyone else who did so has bought an outboard tuner by now. If you haven't, you've probably been using a provider's tuner. So keep on using that. What were you doing all these years? Watching stuff through it's NTSC tuner? And just waiting for someone to practically give you a free ATSC one?

Settle for the subsidized SD one and shut up or go out and spend the money on an HD one already.

I'm really getting tired of reading this here. If you're just a green newbie to all this stuff, go and read through the HDTV hardware forums and see what people had to spend to receive HD all these years. HD is a luxury, NOT a necessity.
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post #86 of 274 Old 05-13-2008, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Settle for the subsidized SD one and shut up or go out and spend the money on an HD one already.

I'm really getting tired of reading this here. If you're just a green newbie to all this stuff, go and read through the HDTV hardware forums and see what people had to spend to receive HD all these years. HD is a luxury, NOT a necessity.

Amen to that----- I'm one of the ones that bought a rear projection without an atsc tuner because it was half the cost of one with a digital tuner, I purchased a tuner later that was almost half the cost of tuners at the time.

That was 5 years ago

Now I have two dvd recorders with digital tuner that cost less than that tuner. Tuners can be had for a song and dance these days. I have 3 of those that output hdtv that cost around 40 bucks a piece

The coupon units in my opinion are great for upgrading a regular analog tv and at 40 dollars off what's there to complaining about????
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post #87 of 274 Old 05-14-2008, 08:19 AM
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I thought this was the Tivax thread.
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post #88 of 274 Old 05-14-2008, 05:21 PM
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But I thought I'd blow off some steam like everyone else
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post #89 of 274 Old 05-14-2008, 06:05 PM
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Yes, we are all getting tired. =P
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post #90 of 274 Old 05-16-2008, 08:19 AM
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First post here. Hope someone can use this info to help us all out.

I recently purchased the Tivax STB-T9 and the Artec T3A Pro. First off, I agree with those who say the "Zoom" functions on the Tivax completely suck. I don't want to have to switch the aspect ratio each time I change channels, so I would never use this box on a regular basis. The Artec is much nicer from that standpoint.

However, one of the reasons I bought the Tivax was to experiment with it. So I recently hooked up a serial cable to see what I could see. For anyone interested in doing the same, I think I ended up using a null modem cable to get it to work right.

My terminal settings were: Baud - 115200, Data bits - 8, Parity - none, Stop bits - 1.

This got me through to a "Zmon" prompt. But, I'm not really sure what that is.

I captured a few logs of the serial output which I will attach to this post. The first was simply the "help" output. The next was the "help all" which gives more details on each command. And the third was the output from the "config" command, which prints out a config file.

If anyone has any suggestions for me to try while I have this hooked up, I'm all ears.

 

Tivax STB-T9 Help.txt 7.732421875k . file

 

Tivax STB-T9 Help All.txt 10.4951171875k . file

 

Tivax STB-T9 Config.txt 15.0712890625k . file
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