Dish DTVPal technical and TVGOS topic - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 822 Old 07-01-2008, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildgoose View Post

One last question regarding pass through. Toggle between pass-through on/off while the unit is ON is very fast? (ie, the unit doesn't need to go through a few seconds of starting up time)

Pass-through on takes 10 seconds, according to this post:

bhenley

I love the digital transition. The voices in my head just say 0 and 1 now.
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post #92 of 822 Old 07-01-2008, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AimHere View Post

I just set up my DTVPal, and would like to offer a few impressions that others here have not touched upon yet.

I was excited when I read in the user manual (which I found online before I purchased the box) that it would respond to Scientific Atlanta cable-box codes. Excited, since I have a Toshiba RD-XS32 DVR for which Scientific Atlanta is one of the cable-box brands its IR Blaster can control. But I found the DVTPal HAS to be set to the "TV Guide" mode for them to work (and as has been previously mentioned, the EPG, event timers, etc. do not work in TV Guide mode).
....

? isn't it only in connection with using using the DVTPal as the front end of a TV-Guide unit that the Scientific Atlanta codes are mentioned in an appendix on using the TV Guide mode? In that case, the blaster would only be used if the TV Guide was set up to record or, I have supposed, if a live channel were chosen from the TV Guide program listings screen...I guess it's not a HUGE stretch to hope that ANY unit that can control a cable box can control the DTVPal conveniently, but it is SOMETHING of a stretch...

I'll be interested to know if this turns out to be the case...

(For myself, I'm waiting to see if the DTVPal in this mode can simply be used to supply the program listings to a TV Guide unit that HAS a digital tuner, but will only accept the TV Guide DATA from an analog channel...Rammi - do you have a unit yet??? I don't....)

OTA only. For signal strength at your location: FCC DTV reception map
TVGOS data: Sony 250 from 5.1?, LG3410a from my DTVPal setup here, not any more.

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post #93 of 822 Old 07-01-2008, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildgoose View Post

One last question regarding pass through. Toggle between pass-through on/off while the unit is ON is very fast? (ie, the unit doesn't need to go through a few seconds of starting up time)

Going from digital to analog pass-thru mode, there is a 10 second delay.
Going from analog pass-thru to digital mode, there is no delay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildgoose View Post

I assume the DTVPal supports widescreen TV. If so, there is a legitimate reason to adjust aspect ratio for SD 4:3 channels. Sometimes I want it to be in FULL mode, and other times I want black bars on the side without aspect ratio distortion. Is this possible?

The DTVPal only supports changing the aspect ratio on stations broadcasting in HD. If the station is broadcasting in SD, the picture format button doesn't have any effect.
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post #94 of 822 Old 07-01-2008, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

Rammi - do you have a unit yet???

Nope. Solid Signal screwed me and I lost my coupon.
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post #95 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Nope. Solid Signal screwed me and I lost my coupon.

yes, I saw that on the other thread - very sorry

OTA only. For signal strength at your location: FCC DTV reception map
TVGOS data: Sony 250 from 5.1?, LG3410a from my DTVPal setup here, not any more.

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post #96 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 12:41 AM
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Sorry I couldn't get to test it with the various forms of TVGOS. I know you and a few others were really waiting on that.

Still hope to get one sometime soon.
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post #97 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildgoose View Post

I assume the DTVPal supports widescreen TV. If so, there is a legitimate reason to adjust aspect ratio for SD 4:3 channels. Sometimes I want it to be in FULL mode, and other times I want black bars on the side without aspect ratio distortion. Is this possible?

It was never the government's intention that any CECB support output to a widescreen TV, especially of 4:3 content. I have an old Motorola HDT-101 that will do this, but it is very pre-CECB era. It is not a prohibited feature, so some other CECBs may, but clearly this one does not.

That being said... any widescreen TV worth its salt will have its own aspect-ratio settings to display an NTSC signal in either one of those formats, so it shouldn't be an issue.
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post #98 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

(For myself, I'm waiting to see if the DTVPal in this mode can simply be used to supply the program listings to a TV Guide unit that HAS a digital tuner, but will only accept the TV Guide DATA from an analog channel...Rammi - do you have a unit yet??? I don't....)

Perhaps it can (although the channel numbers will have to be manually altered from the fake analog channels to the correct digital channels), but I'm half willing to bet that the DTVPal doesn't decode digital TV Guide data at all, but rather fabricates its VBI TV Guide data from same PSIP data it uses for its own EPG. I make this conjecture only because I've noticed that the digital TV Guide data seems repeat on a cycle that is many minutes long (perhaps 10 or more), while the DTVPal is reported to initially populate its guide more quickly than that.
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post #99 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 08:03 AM
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I haven't seen any comparisons of the DTVpal to say the Zenith 901 or CM7000 for sensitivity & PQ. How do they compare?

Since it has been said they are using a can tuner, maybe the Microtune will be in a later & lass pricey version - TR-40?
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post #100 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lmvine View Post

I haven't seen any comparisons of the DTVpal to say the Zenith 901 or CM7000 for sensitivity & PQ. How do they compare?




Since it has been said they are using a can tuner, maybe the Microtune will be in a later & lass pricey version - TR-40?

I have both the 901 and dtvpal. Amplified Outdoor antenna, 30 ft high, 42 miles from broadcast tower and the signal detection is the same with both ( 27 Stations). One interesting note: neither will pick up the PBS station 13. Tried fine tuning the direction of the antenna but no dice. However my Dish Sat 622 ota receiver pulls in channel 13 at about average of 78 sig. strength.

Other than channel 13 all stations are 80+ and some are in the 90's.

I contacted the engineer at channel 13 and he indicated they are at full power and no other changes are anticipated regarding power after Feb 09.
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post #101 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 08:46 AM
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Thanks hmcewin. Curious about PBS, maybe a format issue.

Care to comment about PQ between the two?
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post #102 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmcewin View Post

I have both the 901 and dtvpal. Amplified Outdoor antenna, 30 ft high, 42 miles from broadcast tower and the signal detection is the same with both ( 27 Stations). One interesting note: neither will pick up the PBS station 13. Tried fine tuning the direction of the antenna but no dice. However my Dish Sat 622 ota receiver pulls in channel 13 at about average of 78 sig. strength.

Other than channel 13 all stations are 80+ and some are in the 90's.

I contacted the engineer at channel 13 and he indicated they are at full power and no other changes are anticipated regarding power after Feb 09.

I see from TVfool that your Ch 13 is on UHF 14, the very bottom of the UHF TV band, FWIW. Does the Dish receiver use a different antenna? Maybe there is something about your OTA antenna/preamp setup that is cutting off the lower UHF frequencies?? Yeah, that doesn't seem likely...

I don't suppose it'd be convenient for you to do a test/compare those two CECBs using an indoor antenna for us? Some of us really need a converter that is tops for receiving and holding weak signals. Some want the features of the DTVpal, but its performance vs. the 901 would have to measure up.
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post #103 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank70 View Post

Perhaps it can (although the channel numbers will have to be manually altered from the fake analog channels to the correct digital channels), but I'm half willing to bet that the DTVPal doesn't decode digital TV Guide data at all, but rather fabricates its VBI TV Guide data from same PSIP data it uses for its own EPG. I make this conjecture only because I've noticed that the digital TV Guide data seems repeat on a cycle that is many minutes long (perhaps 10 or more), while the DTVPal is reported to initially populate its guide more quickly than that.

frank,

PSIP and TVGOS are two completely different beasts.
PSIP, sent by the stations.
TVGOS, inserted in the VBI signal by encoders at participating stations.
Many ask, if it can convert TVGOS data, why doesn't the DTV-PAL use it in their listings? Because they would then have to pay TVGOS a licensing fee.
I am not sure how TVGOS got Dish to program this converion, but I too, like avnstf, am hoping it will convert digital TVGOS data to analog.
Waiting and Seeing

( : WooHoo : )
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post #104 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lmvine View Post

Thanks hmcewin. Curious about PBS, maybe a format issue.

Care to comment about PQ between the two?

Pq is about the same. Very Good on my 27" JVC. Ok on my 110" HT screen with Mits 1000.
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post #105 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualOTAer View Post

I see from TVfool that your Ch 13 is on UHF 14, the very bottom of the UHF TV band, FWIW. Does the Dish receiver use a different antenna? Maybe there is something about your OTA antenna/preamp setup that is cutting off the lower UHF frequencies?? Yeah, that doesn't seem likely...

I don't suppose it'd be convenient for you to do a test/compare those two CECBs using an indoor antenna for us? Some of us really need a converter that is tops for receiving and holding weak signals. Some want the features of the DTVpal, but its performance vs. the 901 would have to measure up.

Using the same outdoor on both receivers.

I tried an old fashioned rabbit ears and got nothing. I suppose the 42 miles from the broadcast site is just too much for this type of system.
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post #106 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anyhoo View Post

I am not sure how TVGOS got Dish to program this converion, but I too, like avnstf, am hoping it will convert digital TVGOS data to analog.

According to a TVGOS tech the conversion happens as part of standard line21 conversion which includes CC, ratings, etc. These are supposed to survive the digital transition and are reinserted into the analog signal output from the boxes. There is no special recognition of TVGOS on line21, all the data transmitted for line21 is just blindly reinserted. According to TVGOS tech, they tested this on the RCA CECB and it worked fine and expected others to work as well.

I haven't read that closely about DTV-PAL to see if they are doing anything beyond what the RCA unit is doing. As you said, actually decoding and using the TVGOS data would require DTV-PAL to license the system and add to costs, so they wouldn't be doing that for an entry level CECB product.
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post #107 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub View Post

According to a TVGOS tech the conversion happens as part of standard line21 conversion which includes CC, ratings, etc. These are supposed to survive the digital transition and are reinserted into the analog signal output from the boxes. There is no special recognition of TVGOS on line21, all the data transmitted for line21 is just blindly reinserted. According to TVGOS tech, they tested this on the RCA CECB and it worked fine and expected others to work as well.

COOOL! It is good to hear about another box that has actually been tested and where TVGOS data is passed along.
Do you know which RCA box they tested, I see 3 RCA's listed as CECB's:
RCA DTA 800A
RCA DTA 800B
RCA DTA800B1 * (*The manufacturer has indicated that these models are capable of passing analog signals through to the TV set.)
That is some nice info and makes sense, the TVGOS info just rides along with all the other VBI info.

Thanks

( : WooHoo : )
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post #108 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub View Post

According to a TVGOS tech the conversion happens as part of standard line21 conversion which includes CC, ratings, etc. These are supposed to survive the digital transition and are reinserted into the analog signal output from the boxes. There is no special recognition of TVGOS on line21, all the data transmitted for line21 is just blindly reinserted. According to TVGOS tech, they tested this on the RCA CECB and it worked fine and expected others to work as well.

I haven't read that closely about DTV-PAL to see if they are doing anything beyond what the RCA unit is doing. As you said, actually decoding and using the TVGOS data would require DTV-PAL to license the system and add to costs, so they wouldn't be doing that for an entry level CECB product.

So, if I read this correctly, any CECB passes the TVGOS data along? And so in regards to TVGOS the only thing that separates the DTVPal is that it's documented in the manual and that it has a setting that turns of all features of the box except channel changing?

Enjoying crystal clear TV for free.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
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post #109 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anyhoo View Post

PSIP and TVGOS are two completely different beasts.
PSIP, sent by the stations.
TVGOS, inserted in the VBI signal by encoders at participating stations.
Many ask, if it can convert TVGOS data, why doesn't the DTV-PAL use it in their listings? Because they would then have to pay TVGOS a licensing fee.
I am not sure how TVGOS got Dish to program this converion, but I too, like avnstf, am hoping it will convert digital TVGOS data to analog.
Waiting and Seeing

I fully understand all of that. What I suspect (contrary to your hope, sad to say) is that it's not "convert"ing anything, but rather just exporting its own internal EPG (gleaned from PSIP) in TVGOS VBI format (with fake analog channel numbers because most TVGOS equipment wouldn't recognize or use digital channels in the guide.) Yes... wait and see is the only real answer.
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post #110 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmcewin View Post

I have both the 901 and dtvpal. Amplified Outdoor antenna, 30 ft high, 42 miles from broadcast tower and the signal detection is the same with both ( 27 Stations). One interesting note: neither will pick up the PBS station 13. Tried fine tuning the direction of the antenna but no dice. However my Dish Sat 622 ota receiver pulls in channel 13 at about average of 78 sig. strength.

I have a similar problem with one of my local PBS stations. I have two devices that pick it up with no problem, but my Vizio HDTV does not. I'm beginning to think that there is some sort of formatting issue with the data stream that they are sending out because the TV used to recognize the station a few months ago, but now it doesn't. I think some tuners are just more forgiving of missing and/or misformatted data.

Have you tried manually adding the station to the 901 or the DTVPal?
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post #111 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 02:03 PM
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Could somebody that has a DTVPal please post the FCC ID? It should be on a sticker on the bottom of the unit. Thanks!
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post #112 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub View Post

According to a TVGOS tech the conversion happens as part of standard line21 conversion which includes CC, ratings, etc. These are supposed to survive the digital transition and are reinserted into the analog signal output from the boxes. There is no special recognition of TVGOS on line21, all the data transmitted for line21 is just blindly reinserted. According to TVGOS tech, they tested this on the RCA CECB and it worked fine and expected others to work as well.

I haven't read that closely about DTV-PAL to see if they are doing anything beyond what the RCA unit is doing. As you said, actually decoding and using the TVGOS data would require DTV-PAL to license the system and add to costs, so they wouldn't be doing that for an entry level CECB product.

There's nothing around to read about the DTVPal so far that will tell you exactly what they are doing...one thing is that to set up an ANALOG TV Guide device so it will operate with the TVGOS data sent to it, you have to set up the device with a fake zip code instead of your actual one so that it picks out a set of data that uses just analog style channel numbers (and not digital-style 2-part channel numbers). The table of fake zip codes in the DTVPal manual has one for each metro area, e.g., 00001 for NYC, 00005 for San Fran area. Personally, I think this means the corresponding TVGOS data set is broadcast with the standard TVGOS data set in each zip code....but that's just my opinion.

With regard to your comments about line 21, I got the impression some months ago that, while cc is on line 21, TVGOS is on another - line 15 is currently being discussed in the thread for the LG3410a - and that the point was that a chip that converts line 21 could just as easily convert the batch of lines that has 21 (as well as the others, like 15)...which would reconcile the facts that you're discussing 21 and THEY are discussing looking directly at line 15 in the DTVPal output (though none of them have gotten their hands on a unit yet)...cf http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post14205361
and following.

I hope I'm representing what you and they said correctly, and that perhaps you can comment...

thanks - Tony

OTA only. For signal strength at your location: FCC DTV reception map
TVGOS data: Sony 250 from 5.1?, LG3410a from my DTVPal setup here, not any more.

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post #113 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 02:39 PM
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Why didn't the DTVPal just have instructions for setting up the Analog TVGuide box (you know new zip code) and not have a TVGuide mode if all converter boxes are converting the Digital TVGuide to Analog.

I still say that you will see the same length of guide on the Analog device as I speculate the DTVPal is converting it's PSIP guide into the Analog TVGuide.

It's stupid if the box is controlled by the same remote codes all the time with a IR blaster/G-link to have a special mode to disable everything and send the same remote code.

I don't see any advantage in using the TVGuide mode if this is true.
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post #114 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin09 View Post

Could somebody that has a DTVPal please post the FCC ID? It should be on a sticker on the bottom of the unit. Thanks!

Mine says, "FCC MODEL: ID035".
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post #115 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 04:47 PM
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I've seen at least one source (http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/tvgos....ngTransmission - beware this reference is clearly out of date since it doesn't recognize digital TVGOS transmission) that claims it's on VBI line 14. But in any case, the CBS stations that carry digital TVGOS data most likely do not encode it as VBI (line 21, 15, 14, or any line at all), which (like CC) would need be transmitted as a few bits (very few bits) along with each frame, at a rate that could be utilized by the NTSC device connected to the output. I will perform another experiment tonight and tomorrow morning, but my previous observation is that an entire day of TVGOS listings (maybe all 8 days, but that's more difficult to test) can populate from a CBS digital TVGOS transmission in 10 - 15 minutes, perhaps even less (I'll be timing it more closely tomorrow - my testbed is a Sony DHG-HDD250 DVR). Contrast this with the 3 hours it takes to download the same info using VBI data. More to come.
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post #116 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank70 View Post

I've seen at least one source (http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/tvgos....ngTransmission - beware this reference is clearly out of date since it doesn't recognize digital TVGOS transmission) that claims it's on VBI line 14. But in any case, the CBS stations that carry digital TVGOS data most likely do not encode it as VBI (line 21, 15, 14, or any line at all), which (like CC) would need be transmitted as a few bits (very few bits) along with each frame, at a rate that could be utilized by the NTSC device connected to the output. I will perform another experiment tonight and tomorrow morning, but my previous observation is that an entire day of TVGOS listings (maybe all 8 days, but that's more difficult to test) can populate from a CBS digital TVGOS transmission in 10 - 15 minutes, perhaps even less (I'll be timing it more closely tomorrow - my testbed is a Sony DHG-HDD250 DVR). Contrast this with the 3 hours it takes to download the same info using VBI data. More to come.

I agree that the digital transmission of TVGOS data is not on vbi lines, since that is an analog TV attribute; I'm not surprised that receipt of the TVGOS, CC, or whatever data from digital stations is different from receipt from analog stations...entirely different "platforms."

OTA only. For signal strength at your location: FCC DTV reception map
TVGOS data: Sony 250 from 5.1?, LG3410a from my DTVPal setup here, not any more.

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post #117 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick313 View Post

I have a similar problem with one of my local PBS stations. I have two devices that pick it up with no problem, but my Vizio HDTV does not. I'm beginning to think that there is some sort of formatting issue with the data stream that they are sending out because the TV used to recognize the station a few months ago, but now it doesn't. I think some tuners are just more forgiving of missing and/or misformatted data.

Have you tried manually adding the station to the 901 or the DTVPal?

Yes, have tried manually adding with both the pal and 901. I have a dialog going with the vp of technology at channel 13 who seems very concerned that every other station from broadcast hill near Dallas is received by both devices but not 13. He is concerned that folks only 40 miles from the tower will be out of luck come Feb 09. Loss of households is loss of money. Next time I talk with him I will bring up the formatting question.
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post #118 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmcewin View Post

Yes, have tried manually adding with both the pal and 901. .

My pal will not see the local PBS on VHF Ch-11.

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of ABC, CBS, CW, FOX, MeTv, or AntennaTv; my employer; or its parent company.
Nor my wife for that matter!
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post #119 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 05:59 PM
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I've had my DTVPal hooked up for a few hours now, and overall I'm very pleased. The picture quality is as good as my Insignia CECB. The EPG is great and timers look to be easy to implement. But there were two issues that I haven't seen addressed yet:

1. On some (maybe all?) channels, the farmost left 1" of the picture is cut off. This isn't something I would normally notice, but when I was testing the box there was severe weather in the area, and most of the major local stations had their weather graphics on the left side of the screen. As an example the word "T-Storm" was left justified and I could only see "Storm" when viewing that channel on the DTVPal. I flipped back to the analog tuner to verify this was DTVPal related.

2. The font, size and color of the channel name and number in the information box is the same as all of the surrounding text, which makes it moderately difficult to figure out what channel your on. In other words, it doesn't stick out at you like the other CECB boxes. This isn't a big deal for me, but I can see this being a big problem for elderly people or others who are nearsighted.
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post #120 of 822 Old 07-02-2008, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visualsensation View Post

On some (maybe all?) channels, the farmost left 1" of the picture is cut off.

Is it only the left side? The Apex DT250 has been reported to have a lot of overscan, which cuts off a little all the way around. Perhaps this box has a similar issue? Do you see it with both the RF and component outputs?
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