Echostar TR-40 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquelyme View Post

I don't understand.

If the clock was dead on after 8 hours, how would you notice any time and date reset shortly thereafter?

What do you mean by "then disabled the timer function (presumably to preserve the timers)"?

By "reset", I meant the time and date changed to this '--:-- --/--/--'. I would assume it does this because it becomes unsure of its time keeping abilities after a certain period of time has passed, and is trying to keep the timers from firing until the user can correct the situation.
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by gotok View Post

My unit loses about one minute a day if left free-running. Pretty terrible for a clock to be used for timers.

You may have one of the more accurate units.

As I recall, at least one other poster reported seven minutes (and that may have been in less than a day).
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank70 View Post

I sure will - that is easy because it was on the debit card attached to my checking account, so it will be immediately obvious within a day or two. But since I never ordered a DTVPal, legally it's a gift. I still have my order number quoted by the rep, which curiously bears no resemblence whatever to either of the order numbers printed on the boxes!

I used my credit card because what if they charge you 3 times and refuse to do anything? Your bank won't help you...
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbios View Post

By "reset", I meant the time and date changed to this '--:-- --/--/--'. I would assume it does this because it becomes unsure of its time keeping abilities after a certain period of time has passed, and is trying to keep the timers from firing until the user can correct the situation.

If what you contend about there not being a problem with free-running clocks were true, then it doesn't make sense that it would disable itself after eight hours, does it?

And would it really make sense to not fire timers at all rather than risk the chance of firing them at the wrong time? What would that accomplish?

I think it's more likely you had a power bobble at some point after eight hours and lost the internal time-of-day clock as a result. With no stations being received, it had no way of restore its clock until you let it receive again.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:11 PM
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So, uniquelyme, how rapidly did the drifting occur with your DTVPal, and over what period of time had you been away from CBS? You are in a confirmed CBS tvgos region, then? Can you give more specifics about the drift?

I'm trying to understand the conditions under which you got it, how big a discrepancy occurred, after how long an absence from CBS, and what happened that made you determine that the time had drifted. Was it a timer late in firing -- and if so, could it have been a guide update that delayed the box? I haven't done much recording, but the first time I recorded, the box had been on standby long enough it started with a guide update. It tuned the right channel after the update, and recorded. My VCR was set a minute earlier, so I'm not sure of the exact sychronization, but it did record. If someone were to replicate to see if there's any drift with the TR-40, what conditions would be required, and what steps would we take? Is there a likely test scenario that doesn't involve leaving the box off for a week? :-)
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:24 PM
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So Beeper, are you saying that if I left my box off from CBS for 10-15 hours, the time would go blank? Because yesterday I was off CBS for 10 hours, then channel flipped past it before going to bed. CBS was off the air all morning -- so probably 15 hours no on CBS, would I have seen a problem in the time, and how would it show itself? I'm not quite seeing where this discrepancy is seen, but I have been keeping a close watch on the time that shows when I change channels, and it's been right on.

Why disable the inactivity timer? I'm obviously missing something here.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:29 PM
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I am in a TVGOS enabled CBS station area. Testing the clock drift is simple and doesn't involve any timers, guide updates, or anything else.

After ensuring that your DTVPal/TR-40CRA is honoring only the time being broadcast by your TVGOS enabled CBS station, temporarily disable the inactivity timer so the unit never goes into standby mode. Change to another channel (not a sub-channel of the CBS station) and note that the time is dead on. Then simply leave the unit untouched for the next twenty-four hours and note the time being displayed at that point. In my case, it was off by a few minutes.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

So Beeper, are you saying that if I left my box off from CBS for 10-15 hours, the time would go blank? Because yesterday I was off CBS for 10 hours, then channel flipped past it before going to bed. CBS was off the air all morning -- so probably 15 hours no on CBS, would I have seen a problem in the time, and how would it show itself? I'm not quite seeing where this discrepancy is seen, but I have been keeping a close watch on the time that shows when I change channels, and it's been right on.

Why disable the inactivity timer? I'm obviously missing something here.

The advise from DISH was to disable the inactivity timer and leave the units on 24/7 because of the download timer corruption observed with F100 and F101. They did not mention the tendency of the units to overheat when that was done. They also did not mention that it probably was only applicable to units in a digital TVGOS area.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:34 PM
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Ditto to above.

The user is warned about disabling the inactivity timer and that was a suggested work around only, not normal usage.

That work around is no longer needed with the TR-40 F103.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

So Beeper, are you saying that if I left my box off from CBS for 10-15 hours, the time would go blank? Because yesterday I was off CBS for 10 hours, then channel flipped past it before going to bed. CBS was off the air all morning -- so probably 15 hours no on CBS, would I have seen a problem in the time, and how would it show itself?

As long as your antenna was connected and the unit powered off it should keep time whether it is on CBS or not.

I thought it was you, that did the antenna removal and checked the time.

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Old 08-28-2008, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

Ditto to above.

The user is warned about disabling the inactivity timer and that was a suggested work around only, not normal usage.

I have not seen anyone say that they were warned when they were given the advise to make the change. I believe that trp2525 was given that advice from the product manager and I don't recall a reported warning.

The only warning I have heard of is the one built into the unit, Are you aware of any warnings from the DISH support people suggesting the workaround.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:51 PM
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The warning that I was referring to was the one the unit gives before you select yes to disable.
And the recommendation in the user guide page 17 to set to enable.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:56 PM
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pabeader did an antenna removal to break his timers so he could see the channel changing bug.

If the drift is tied to the temporary fix of leaving the box on, then it shouldn't be the same problem once people get version 103. It could be a problem, if people are away from CBS for long periods of time while their box is on, and their area stations are not good about PSIP timekeeping.

My set was on a lot yesterday, while I was playing with the new toy, and it did not get hot. It's as warm on the bottom as the CM7000 is on the top, but not hot.

From reading trp2525's report, if time of day defaults to the non-CBS channel it's on, then I won't see any problems, since my stations are all doing a great job of time keeping. I'd have to wait until a station's time is different before I can see if my timer drifts. CBS was off the air today, so if the time defaulted to another station, I'd still be in perfect time, as I was.

Thanks everyone, for helping me see the background for this drifting problem. It does not sound like it will be a problem for me, since I have the inactivity timer engaged, and if time ever defaults to a non-CBS station, it will likely be the same time. Cheers to the Portland station engineers!!
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:14 PM
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It was Symbios that did the antenna disconnect and checked the clock. I knew it was one of the two known TR-40cra owners.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

If the drift is tied to the temporary fix of leaving the box on, then it shouldn't be the same problem once people get version 103. It could be a problem, if people are away from CBS for long periods of time while their box is on, and their area stations are not good about PSIP timekeeping.

I think you're still confused.

The drift issue has nothing to do with the temporary fix of leaving the box on (which was to avoid having timers altered/deleted) and it's yet to be determined if the drift issue is fixed in F103 (I'll be very surprised if it is). The drift problem has to do with watching something other than your TVGOS enabled CBS station for long periods of time (like having been glued to the Olympics last week for countless hours at a time).

The problem also has nothing to do with other stations PSIP timekeeping. If you're in a TVGOS enabled CBS station area, then the PSIP time from all other stations is ignored.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenavs View Post

The advise from DISH was to disable the inactivity timer and leave the units on 24/7 because of the download timer corruption observed with F100 and F101. They did not mention the tendency of the units to overheat when that was done.

For anyone concerned about possible overheating issues who also have hopes of using the DTVPal/TR-40CRA as a front-end to their TiVo, you must disable the inactivity as the TiVo has no support for turning an IR controlled box on and off. The converter box must be left running 24/7 or the TiVo will record dead-air once the inactivity timer engages.
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquelyme View Post

...
The drift issue has nothing to do with the temporary fix of leaving the box on
...

I tend to relate them, because, as I recall, people with digital TVGOS first reported the drift (as opposed to the jumping around when changing channels experienced by those who do not have a digital TVGOS station) when they left their units on continuously(based on the advice of the DISH support people). Until they started doing that, I think the drift was small enough, for most users, that maintenance cycles, or just happening to tune to the CBS station, could keep them close enough, that it was not obvious.
I think a lot of that discussion is in the lost days. I have vague memories of someone suggesting to set a timer to go to a CBS station, to get the clock updated, before the timer to record something.
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:22 PM
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That was my suggestion. If you had an available timer, set it to go to CBS long enough to refresh the PSIP data.
I think you would be limited to using a one minute manual timer at the least, since that is the smallest increment.

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Old 08-28-2008, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquelyme View Post

The problem also has nothing to do with other stations PSIP timekeeping. If you're in a TVGOS enabled CBS station area, then the PSIP time from all other stations is ignored.

I'm referring to trp2525's comment that suggests when CBS is not being viewed, or allowed to update in standby, the box defaults to the active station being viewed for its time. Under those conditions, the PSIP time from another station could be involved in experiencing the drift phenomenon. My stations are uniformly accurate.

I think Malouff retrieved some of those comments from cache.
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

I'm referring to trp2525's comment that suggests when CBS is not being viewed, or allowed to update in standby, the box defaults to the active station being viewed for its time.

I don't recall there being any indication that the DTVPal reverts back to using the current station if you don't return to the TVGOS enabled CBS station within some period of time. All of the reports I remember indicated that the DTVPal's time simply drifted further and further off. That's been my experience.

Given the confirmed behavior of F103 in the TR-40CRA, reverting to the current station's time could be very problematic if it's running fast and you have a timer event due within the difference (the timer would be deleted).
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

I'm referring to trp2525's comment that suggests when CBS is not being viewed, or allowed to update in standby, the box defaults to the active station being viewed for its time. Under those conditions, the PSIP time from another station could be involved in experiencing the drift phenomenon. My stations are uniformly accurate.

I think Malouff retrieved some of those comments from cache.

As I recall it, it was never established for sure what was happening. It was speculated that the converter was switching to some other stations time because it was thought that the drift couldn't be as bad as the shift that was reported.

Update:
I think I now remember more about this. The OP (I am not sure who it was, but it may well have been trp2525) reported a 7 minute shift in 24 hours. I had responded that maybe we now knew why they did not include a manual clock set. There was at least one reply that: drift could not be that bad, and the DTVpal had probably switched to the tuned station time. When I asked the OP if he remembered some details, he pointed out that he had carefully stepped through his other stations, avoiding CBS, and observing the time. It had not jumped until he finally went back to CBS, and the time became accurate. His observations are consistent with drift, and only using the CBS station time to reset. If the DTVpal had switched to using the tuned channel time, it should have jumped around as he tuned other stations.
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post

Just ordered TR40CRA online at www.tr40cra.com. $13.25 S&H + TAX. Says will be shipped UPS ground......those who ordered online...did ES E mail you a UPS tracking number? If not is there a way to find it out? Also, does the TR40CRA come with composite cables?
Thanks,

They didn't email me anything. No tracking number. But to their credit, they sent it UPS 2nd day air. No composite/audio cables included, only a 3-ft coaxial RF cable.

Too bad about those tax laws in your state - PA doesn't tax the federal subsidy (the federal government is a tax exempt "instrumentality".)
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquelyme View Post

For anyone concerned about possible overheating issues who also have hopes of using the DTVPal/TR-40CRA as a front-end to their TiVo

Still trying to figure out what converter box to buy for my TiVo. I want S-Video, like on the Channel Master CM-7000, but it seems every box has its flaws.
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by frank70 View Post

They didn't email me anything. No tracking number. But to their credit, they sent it UPS 2nd day air. No composite/audio cables included, only a 3-ft coaxial RF cable.

Too bad about those tax laws in your state - PA doesn't tax the federal subsidy (the federal government is a tax exempt "instrumentality".)

I have thought about this taxable issue, and as a layman, I can see some validity to both sides of the arguement. With hundreds of congress members and their staffs involved in the creation of the law, at least one of them should have anticipated the issue, and included guidance in the legislation that created the coupon program.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amiga View Post

Still trying to figure out what converter box to buy for my TiVo. I want S-Video, like on the Channel Master CM-7000, but it seems every box has its flaws.

I've been using a Zenith DTT901 with mine for about 3 months now and it's a pretty decent combination. Channel changing via IR has been flawless and picture quality using composite into and out of the TiVo is very good. I'm sure S-video would be slightly better, but I'm getting better quality now than I've ever had on my Mitsubishi 30" CRT. The Zenith doesn't get very warm running 24/7 and remembers zoom settings on a per-channel basis. I'm extremely happy with how my TiVo is weathering the digital transition.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:04 PM
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Quote:


Originally Posted by trp2525 (re DTVPal, version 100):
The question is did the clock just drift off on its own (in the absence of the CBS PSIP clock data) to lose those 7 minutes or did it adjust (by default) to the station that it had been tuned to for 24 hours? Some on this board have suggested the latter explanation to be more plausible.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post14420757
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:51 PM
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That quote is consistent with my recollection. It is my opinion that the group in:
Quote:


Some on this board have suggested the latter explanation to be more plausible.

are incorrect. I believe the followup posts describing the way the unit failed to change time until it was tuned to CBS makes it far more likely that the shift was caused by drift. It is possible the unit made a switch to a different station as master until it found CBS, but I find that to be a bizarre programming decission, and nothing I have seen has ever indicated that the DTVpal will use anything but a CBS station as master. I still do have to concede that the DTVpal programmers may have programmed the unit to change to a non-CBS master.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:49 PM
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This has probably been asked and answered before but what does the "CRA" stand for? (nevermind the missing "P" jokes).
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by uniquelyme View Post

Any software developer that can't implement and debug these changes in a single day needs to find a new line of work.

So why don't you offer your services?
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Old 08-29-2008, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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i found a product difference between the DTVPAL and TR40-CRA that i haven't read here. The DTVPAL has a switch on the back for using channel 3 or 4 while this switch is missing on the TR4-0CRA. It seams the TR40-CRA will only work on channel 3
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