Dish Network DTVPal Plus - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 401 Old 06-07-2009, 09:07 AM
 
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Clock Drift Issue solved!

I figured out that it was me that was causing the clock drift issue, by manually turning the Pal+ off. Because I was doing this, it was not downloading/updating the program guide data and syncing the clock the next time the Pal+ powered on. Now, I never turn the Pal+ off manually. When I am done watching TV I just turn the TV off, leaving the Pal+ on and letting it shut down on it's own eventually if I have not used it again in 4 hours via the inactivity standby. The next time I turn the Pal+ on, the Pal+ will download/update the program data and sync the clock each time. The clock has never drifted since. I believe this is the way the Pal+ was designed to work.
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post #362 of 401 Old 06-08-2009, 07:13 AM
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I always manually power off my DTVPal Plus when I am not using it and my clock doesn't drift.

It routinely does the guide download at power on.
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post #363 of 401 Old 06-11-2009, 12:26 PM
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Sometimes the on-screen-display doesn't show. For example I adjust volume and the little bar graph does not appear. The green LED does flicker in response to the remote buttons being pressed, and the TV sound gets louder/softer, but the bar is not onscreen. Also, when in this condition, if I press the APT button, the warning message with the countdown clock does not appear, but it does enter the APT mode after those seconds elapse. When in this condition,if I press the 'guide' button, the EPG does show, then all the OSD things work normally. It happens at least once a day. Curious as to anyone else experience this?
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post #364 of 401 Old 06-11-2009, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja1 View Post

Sometimes the on-screen-display doesn't show. For example I adjust volume and the little bar graph does not appear. The green LED does flicker in response to the remote buttons being pressed, and the TV sound gets louder/softer, but the bar is not onscreen. Also, when in this condition, if I press the APT button, the warning message with the countdown clock does not appear, but it does enter the APT mode after those seconds elapse. When in this condition,if I press the 'guide' button, the EPG does show, then all the OSD things work normally. It happens at least once a day. Curious as to anyone else experience this?

Try unplug box from wall. For 30 seconds and start again
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post #365 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 04:28 AM
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I haven't suffered any clock drift when I've been turning off the Pal+ nightly, but maybe I've just been lucky. I'd been testing this for about a week. A couple of months back I did run into a problem that the Pal+ was an hour off, but I only noticed it once and then it corrected itself somehow and now it always seems to stay at the proper time. I only turn it off manually so as not to waste electricity. Eventually I will be using it exclusively in TVGOS mode if the transition goes well, so then it will be on for whatever housekeeping it needs to do. I don't know if it goes into a low power mode or not on it's own.
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post #366 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

I haven't suffered any clock drift when I've been turning off the Pal+ nightly, but maybe I've just been lucky.

It was designed to work that way, no luck involved.

If it was once temporarily an hour off, it was probably your local station's PSIP time being incorrect.
One station in my market temporarily goes 24 hours slow. They know the problem is occurring, but haven't figured out a fix yet.
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post #367 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 07:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

It was designed to work that way, no luck involved.

Hmmm, so why does my clock stay in sync if I let the box shut down on it's own but drift slowly over time if I shut it down manually?
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post #368 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by lexus2108 View Post

Try unplug box from wall. For 30 seconds and start again

No change. But I have discovered it's related to closed captioning. It seems that CC text has priority over other graphics and overrides them. When there is CC text on the screen, those other graphics (mute, volume, APT) don't display. Is that a bug, or a feature?
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post #369 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja1 View Post

When there is CC text on the screen, those other graphics (mute, volume, APT) don't display. Is that a bug, or a feature?

Limitation would probably be the best description. My HDTV does the same thing only in reverse. When CC is enabled, the other graphics override it. Frankly, the way the Pal operates makes more sense.
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post #370 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post

Hmmm, so why does my clock stay in sync if I let the box shut down on it's own but drift slowly over time if I shut it down manually?

Because something is wrong with your particular unit? It shouldn't do that.
Nobody else has described having that specific problem.
You're alone on that one, so everyone else's is working as designed in that regard.
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post #371 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 04:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

Because something is wrong with your particular unit? It shouldn't do that.
Nobody else has described having that specific problem.
You're alone on that one, so everyone else's is working as designed in that regard.

Does your Pal+ download the program guide and scan for new services *every time* you turn your box back on after manually shutting if off?
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post #372 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post

Does your Pal+ download the program guide and scan for new services *every time* you turn your box back on after manually shutting if off?

Yes for the guide download, unless it had been powered on recently. (15 minutes or so.)
If you are getting a CBS TVGOS flag, that is normal behavior.

No, for the scan for new services. That is not normal behavior.
It may occasionally show a message that a new channel was added. It would have found the new channel during maintenance.
Are you seeing a message that it is scanning for new channels?
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post #373 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 05:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

Yes for the guide download, unless it had been powered on recently. (15 minutes or so.)
If you are getting a CBS TVGOS flag, that is normal behavior.

No, for the scan for new services. That is not normal behavior.
It may occasionally show a message that a new channel was added. It would have found the new channel during maintenance.
Are you seeing a message that it is scanning for new channels?

Every time I turn on my box, it downloads new EPG data (and tells me so and displays a progress bar across the bottom of the screen as it does it) and scans for new services. There is no message that it is scanning for new services, but I know it's doing it because if it does find any, it puts the message "X New Service(s) Added" up on the screen. Keep in mind I *never* turn the box off manually, but always let it shut down on it's own using the inactivity standby (I just turn the TV off when I'm done watching TV).

P.S. When your Pal+ is downloading the EPG info, that IS the maintenance you speak of. The Pal+ does not turn on by itself to do anything and does nothing when it is powered off.
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post #374 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post

Every time I turn on my box, it downloads new EPG data (and tells me so and displays a progress bar across the bottom of the screen as it does it) and scans for new services. There is no message that it is scanning for new services, but I know it's doing it because if it does find any, it puts the message "X New Service(s) Added" up on the screen. Keep in mind I *never* turn the box off manually, but always let it shut down on it's own using the inactivity standby (I just turn the TV off when I'm done watching TV).

P.S. When your Pal+ is downloading the EPG info, that IS the maintenance you speak of. The Pal+ does not turn on by itself to do anything and does nothing when it is powered off.

The Pal+ does power on by itself during maintenance mode. It can only enter maintenance mode if it was in a powered off state.

When it does maintenance, one of the things it does is look for new channels.

Whenever you power on the unit, the first thing it does is download the program guide. That is not considered maintenance.

After that is completed, if it found new services during maintenance, this is the first opportunity to notify you, with the new services added message.
The new service(s) had previously been added during maintenance mode.
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post #375 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 05:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

The Pal+ does power on by itself during maintenance mode. It can only enter maintenance mode if it was in a powered off state.

When it does maintenance, one of the things it does is look for new channels.

Whenever you power on the unit, the first thing it does is download the program guide. That is not considered maintenance.

After that is completed, if it found new services during maintenance, this is the first opportunity to notify you, with the new services added message.
The new service(s) had previously been added during maintenance mode.

Hmmm, I'm very skeptical of this. Have you been up all night watching your box when it is off and seen it turn on by itself? In the Pal+ guide all it says is that the "Inactivity Standby" is necessary for the box to shut down so that "maintenance can take place". The next unstated part of that sentence is, I believe, "when the box is next turned on". Echostar built this feature in because they *knew* there would be some people who would treat the Pal+ like a cable box and leave it on 24/7, and only turn their TV off, thus maintenance at next power on would never take place. Why should the box scan for new services separately at some mysterious random time, and then only tell you what it found later when the EPG guide is finished downloading? Doesn't it make more sense from a design point of view that when the box is turned on after a shutdown, that the EPG download and a scan for any new services would take place all in one swipe? The latter is efficient design whereas the former would be inefficient design.
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post #376 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post

Hmmm, I'm very skeptical of this. Have you been up all night watching your box when it is off and seen it turn on by itself? In the Pal+ guide all it says is that the "Inactivity Standby" is necessary for the box to shut down so that "maintenance can take place". The next unstated part of that sentence is, I believe, "when the box is next turned on". Echostar built this feature in because they *knew* there would be some people who would treat the Pal+ like a cable box and leave it on 24/7, and only turn their TV off, thus maintenance at next power on would never take place. Why should the box scan for new services separately at some mysterious random time, and then only tell you what it found later when the EPG guide is finished downloading? Doesn't it make more sense from a design point of view that when the box is turned on after a shutdown, that the EPG download and a scan for any new services would take place all in one swipe? The latter is efficient design whereas the former would be inefficient design.

There has always been a lot of confusion regarding maintenance mode and the warning message that is received before disabling the inactivity standby.

It is a well known fact since the earliest thread that the DTV Pal powers itself on and off to do maintenance.
It does this many times a day/night, and many users witness it doing so, including myself.

The warning received when selecting to disable the inactivity standby is assuming that by doing so, you will have it powered on 24/7.
As I previously mentioned, the unit can't enter maintenance mode if it is currently powered on.
So by disabling the inactivity standby and leaving it powered on, it will never enter the maintenance mode. Hence the warning.

As far as your logic for when the unit should notify you that new services have been added. It finds new services when it is in maintenance mode.
That could be in the middle of the night. It doesn't wake you up to notify you at that time.
Instead, you are notified the next opportunity it has after you power on the unit and the guide download is completed.

If you are in a market where you don't get the guide download at power on, then you would get the "new services added" message immediately.
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post #377 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post

Hmmm, I'm very skeptical of this. Have you been up all night watching your box when it is off and seen it turn on by itself?

I've seen it, and it doesn't require staying up all night. Whenever I watched analog TV through the PalPlus, by turning it off (rather than via APT mode), there was a high chance of it interrupting my analog viewing (usually PBS newshour) when it went into the maintenance mode. That's how I learned it's better to use APT than to turn it off. I hated those rude interruptions and they had a way of happening at the most inopportune momemts.
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post #378 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 06:35 PM
 
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Well fair enough then. In the end, I suppose we are just arguing very esoteric points. I leave my box on and let it shut down on it's own, the EPG downloads at every power on, sometimes new services get added, and the clock stays in sync, so, no problems here, everything is working just fine.
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post #379 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post

Well fair enough then. In the end, I suppose we are just arguing very esoteric points. I leave my box on and let it shut down on it's own, the EPG downloads at every power on, sometimes new services get added, and the clock stays in sync, so, no problems here, everything is working just fine.

I was just trying to accurately answer your questions, I didn't see any argument.

My original point was that your unit doesn't seem to be functioning normally if the clock drifts when manually powering it off.

Are you switching or disconnecting the antenna connection at any time when it is off?
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post #380 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 06:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

I was just trying to accurately answer your questions, I didn't see any argument.

By "argument" I only meant as in "debate".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

My original point was that your unit doesn't seem to be functioning normally if the clock drifts when manually powering it off.

Are you switching or disconnecting the antenna connection at any time when it is off?

I am not switching or disconnecting, or doing anything with the antenna. Never have. Not now, and not when I was turning the box off manually either.
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post #381 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post

I am not switching or disconnecting, or doing anything with the antenna. Never have. Not now, and not when I was turning the box off manually either.

Just checking, because having the antenna switched (or disconnected) in any way would prohibit the unit from successfully doing maintenance.

Part of the maintenance mode is updating the clock time while the unit has been powered off by any method.
So if it is unused for many days, the clock remains as accurate as your local station's PSIP time.
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post #382 of 401 Old 06-12-2009, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post

Screw WNBC-DT and their aspect ratio broadcast flag! Who do they think they are to make that decision for me?

I just noticed your protest signature.

You might be interested in this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16638429
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post #383 of 401 Old 06-13-2009, 04:45 PM
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I don't believe the behavior of the DTVPal(+) turning on to do maintenance is “normal”. I think that when the unit’s green light comes on when it is powered off is caused by the unit crashing or doing a reset.

When the unit green light comes on the antenna signal is not passed through to the TV. The behavior is more like when you unplug and plug back in the unit. The green light goes on for ~30 seconds then shuts off. When you turn on the unit it loads the program guide.

If you reset the DTVPal(+) to the factory settings, it will no longer go through the cycle of the green light going on then loading the program guide when it is powered on. After a number of days this behavior will return. Until that time the guide is kept up to date, it does not load the guide data at power up time, and new found services are not added dynamically. Services should only be added when I ask it to be done.

One thought is that it is not handling PSIP data for weak stations well. I think something in memory is be corrupted, but what do I know. For the time being I have removed all but the most consistent stations to see what happens.
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post #384 of 401 Old 06-14-2009, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JmC65 View Post

I don't believe the behavior of the DTVPal(+) turning on to do maintenance is “normal”. I think that when the unit’s green light comes on when it is powered off is caused by the unit crashing or doing a reset.

When the unit green light comes on the antenna signal is not passed through to the TV. The behavior is more like when you unplug and plug back in the unit. The green light goes on for ~30 seconds then shuts off. When you turn on the unit it loads the program guide.

That places you into the group of one or two people with that belief.
So when do you think the unit enters maintenance mode?

The boot time is typically about 25-30 seconds. The maintenance mode and guide download time is about 15 seconds each in my market.
The guide download time and maintenance mode time may increase when receiving a greater number of stations, especially from two markets.

You are correct that when the unit powers itself on to do maintenance, it does not pass a converted ATSC signal to any output,
because it was not designed to. When the unit is in maintenance mode it only needs or uses the antenna input.

However, when it powers on to do maintenance, while you were watching an analog NTSC signal through it, you can still see a distorted analog signal.
More so on the DTV Pal Plus then with the DTV Pal/TR-40.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JmC65 View Post

If you reset the DTVPal(+) to the factory settings, it will no longer go through the cycle of the green light going on then loading the program guide when it is powered on. After a number of days this behavior will return. Until that time the guide is kept up to date, it does not load the guide data at power up time, and new found services are not added dynamically. Services should only be added when I ask it to be done.

You're assuming that the behavior of your one unit is the norm.

After doing a factory reset, the guide download at power on occurs immediately and continues to do so on my DTV Pal, TR-40 and DTV Pal Plus,
and any of the various ones that I have set up for others. (Unless you are not in a CBS TVGOS market.)

The guide will be kept up to date regardless of receiving the guide download at power on.
The guide download at power on is redundant and unnecessary if the unit is used regularly.
The guide is constantly updated any time you are actively using the unit.

The unit is designed to find new services during maintenance mode regardless of if you personally want it to or not.
You make it sound like your unit hasn't alerted you to new services found unless you have asked it to.
Or it just hasn't happened to find new services on it's own, for a short time after doing a factory reset?
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post #385 of 401 Old 06-16-2009, 08:54 AM
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I think that maintance is performed while the device "off". I don't think that it is normal for the the device to disrupt the pass through of the antenna signal to the TV while the device is off as it does when the when goes through the "green light cycle".

After performing a factory reset and walking though the setup process the device keeps the guide information keeps up to date for several days without a "green light cycle". At some point the behavior of the device changes and starts this cycle.

This leads me to believe that the behavior for the several days after the factory reset is the normal behavior for the device.

As far as the adding of new services. I have edited the service list to exclude stations that are not received well. These stations should not be rediscovered as new stations. Again this does not happen for some time after the factory reset.

My devices do not go though a program guide load each time I turn the device until the "Green Light Cycle" begins.

I am not basing this on the behavior of one unit. Over the last year I have had 5 DTVPals here. Two were DTVPals and three have been DTVPal Pluses.
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post #386 of 401 Old 06-20-2009, 03:15 PM
 
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Another quirk with the DTVPal. Today suddenly my Pal+ was displaying WNET, which broadcasts on RF 13 and PSIP 13.1, on channel 70.1. At first, I thought it was the station, but then others in the area said they were still getting 13.1. Then someone chimes in and says this is a problem with the Pal+. They say that the 70.1 happens on the Pal+ and you need to reset to factory defaults and rescan and then WNET will appear on 13.1 again. It's the only way to get the 70.1 out of the boxes memory, they say (since I tried deleting the weird PSIP channel and rescanning on 13 only and even tried unplugging the box to no avail). Sure enough, after a factory default reset, WNET is back on 13.1.
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post #387 of 401 Old 06-21-2009, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCLA* View Post

Another quirk with the DTVPal. Today suddenly my Pal+ was displaying WNET, which broadcasts on RF 13 and PSIP 13.1, on channel 70.1. At first, I thought it was the station, but then others in the area said they were still getting 13.1. Then someone chimes in and says this is a problem with the Pal+. They say that the 70.1 happens on the Pal+ and you need to reset to factory defaults and rescan and then WNET will appear on 13.1 again. It's the only way to get the 70.1 out of the boxes memory, they say (since I tried deleting the weird PSIP channel and rescanning on 13 only and even tried unplugging the box to no avail). Sure enough, after a factory default reset, WNET is back on 13.1.

If I understand you correctly, it is the station that causes that situation with a phantom signal.

If you already have a channel mapped for RF 13.1 (WNET) and you get another temporary signal from the station as 13.1 (PSIP) the DTVPal will map the new channel in the 70's, but place it in the channel list/guide in the proper order, next to 13.1 (WNET).

When you get a channel mapped in the 70s, it is normally because something has previously been mapped to the real or virtual channel and any other attempt to map to those channels will place the new channel in the 70s.

As you stated, the only way to clear the unit when that occurs seems to be a factory reset and rescan.
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post #388 of 401 Old 06-21-2009, 03:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

If I understand you correctly, it is the station that causes that situation with a phantom signal.

If you already have a channel mapped for RF 13.1 (WNET) and you get another temporary signal from the station as 13.1 (PSIP) the DTVPal will map the new channel in the 70's, but place it in the channel list/guide in the proper order, next to 13.1 (WNET).

When you get a channel mapped in the 70s, it is normally because something has previously been mapped to the real or virtual channel and any other attempt to map to those channels will place the new channel in the 70s.

As you stated, the only way to clear the unit when that occurs seems to be a factory reset and rescan.

I thought it was the station too. I thought that they were messing with their PSIP data, or it was something about their signal that was causing my Pal+ to interpret their PSIP data as 70.1 instead of 13.1, but more than one person chimed in and said this is a flaw with the Pal+, including the guy who runs rabbitears.info. I was the only one getting WNET on 70.1 instead of the correct 13.1. Others who responded verified that they were still getting WNET on 13.1, so it had to be a problem with my box. My box also did not place the 70.1 channel in the proper order in the guide next to 13.2 or 13.3. While my box was busy putting WNET on 70.1 instead of where it belonged on 13.1, 13.1 was blank, "No Signal".

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Anyone seeing 70-1, 71-1, etc on a DTVPal needs to do a full factory reset. It's a bug in the way the DTVPal handles stations that change settings on their encoder.

- Trip
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post #389 of 401 Old 06-23-2009, 07:41 PM
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NYCLA, thanks for the info about the factory reset. On June 12, my DTVPal+ picked up some of the channels as 71 plus, and has had no program guide for them since. The reset has fixed it!

One other thing that keeps bugging me about the DTVPal+ is that when I first turn it on, the Program Guide works fine, but after a while it seems to lose some the information, and just displays "No Information", until I tune to that channel, then it will pick up the Guide info again. Very annoying!

Any advice?

Thanks again

Red
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post #390 of 401 Old 06-24-2009, 07:33 AM
 
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...and once again my Pal+ has stopped downloading the EPG. Even though I'm letting it shut down on it's own through inactivity standby, and am not doing anything different. The only way I am now able to get the EPG to download is to unplug the unit and then plug it back in again. These little boxes sure have a lot of problems. I was enthused about what Dish network had done at first, but little by little, over time, it's turning out that these boxes are riddled with problems, or at best, are simply unreliable.
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