A question for solidsignal.com CECB customers... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 189 Old 03-14-2009, 12:19 PM
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Unfortunately we are unable to disclose the information of our customer’s orders. Hopefully our customers will reply with any results.

Thank you,
Solid Signal Customer Service

SS@SolidSignal
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post #92 of 189 Old 03-14-2009, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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SolidSignal,

Is it still your policy to ship single CECBs in their retail boxes?

A yes or no answer please.
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post #93 of 189 Old 03-18-2009, 07:03 AM
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For the most up to date version of our return and shipping policies visit the following:

http://www.solidsignal.com/returns_warr.asp

http://www.solidsignal.com/shipping_info.asp

Thank You

SS@SolidSignal
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post #94 of 189 Old 03-18-2009, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSignal View Post

For the most up to date version of our return and shipping policies visit the following:

http://www.solidsignal.com/returns_warr.asp

http://www.solidsignal.com/shipping_info.asp

There is no reference in either of those links regarding packaging policy.

Item #1 in the returns policy says that returns will not be accepted when "manufacturers original packaging is missing, incomplete, damaged or defaced" which that retail package will surely be after you've shipped it naked to the customer IN THE FIRST PLACE.

The return policy also states "digital converter boxes, coupon eligible converter boxes (CECBs) are not returnable" which IIRC is a violation of the UCC.

By not giving a yes or no answer you've told us what we need to know.

IMO, you deserve every sale you don't get from this forum.
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post #95 of 189 Old 03-18-2009, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subeluvr View Post

The return policy also states "digital converter boxes, coupon eligible converter boxes (CECBs) are not returnable" which IIRC is a violation of the UCC.

Can you provide either a link or more detail? There are a few manufacturers, that state in their documentation, want the consumer to return the CECB's to them, when there is a defect.
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post #96 of 189 Old 03-19-2009, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by systems2000 View Post

Can you provide either a link or more detail? There are a few manufacturers, that state in their documentation, want the consumer to return the CECB's to them, when there is a defect.

The more difficult you make it for the consumer- the less you have to worry about warranty issues. So yes manufacturers that are trying to duck out of making good on warranty issues are going to state such.

(Sub-standard) Retailers like this as this relieves them of having to replace units out of their inventory and associated costs in manpower to "take care of the problem".

(Good) Retailers step up to the plate and:

A: Make the return process easy.
B: Take back defective units for 30-90 days after sale.
C: Replace such out of their inventory- getting credit back from manufacturer directly for the replacement unit, Costs associated to ship replacement unit back to consumer, and credit to cover the cost of bundling up defective units as "lots", and ship back (or destroy) defective units back to the manufacturer via BULK shipping methods. (EG: Palletized)


* As a side I think it's BS for the customer to have to pay return shipping costs on defective product. This cost should be absorbed by the manufacturer- not the consumer.
I also think it's a bunch of BS that the manufacturers (on other types of electronics) have cut-back warranty periods from a full 1-year parts and labor to 90-days labor-1-year on parts- or 90 labor/parts.

Think what you may -but reduced warranty periods do NOT make for better products. It allows cheaper components to be used- sub-standard (sloppy) engineering, or assembly practices and allows the manufacturer to wiggle out of "fixing", or "make-good" on issues beyond 90-days- a example early adopters such as DTVPal consumers being given the shaft on problematic units.

* Note current shipping DTVPal units still aren't "fixed" 100%. The point is when you have only a 90-day warranty vs a year you can push (sub-standard from a hardware, engineering stand-point) or "buggy" product and you don't have to "fix" the problem.


.
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post #97 of 189 Old 04-05-2009, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by craftech View Post
After they refused to take back a Channel Master DA that wouldn't work I vowed never to order from them again.

The woman I got on the phone was as nasty to me as I was nice to her. She made me sick.

I would gladly pay more than to have to deal with Solid Signal. They aren't worth the aggravation and poor customer support despite that phony statement from their representative earlier.

John




Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThePeople View Post

So SolidSignal,
did you get ahold of John and offer him a new box after what your representitive treated him like on the phone?
Surely he doesn't have to call YOU again after that, does he?

SolidSignal, call him, fix that for gosh sakes.
Take the first step and message him here for contact info.

Lets see if it is all talk, or they follow through with what they say...

NO they didn't. I just got back to the forums after a long time only to find out that there was an argument regarding my complaint about Solid Signal and my vow never to do business with them again. What's the argument? - "I didn't have a problem so neither did you"?

It didn't work and they wouldn't take it back. Plain and simple. I got a truly obnoxious and nasty woman on the phone despite my politeness.

It was order number 104913-108967356 for the Solid Signal rep who asked in a post here instead of PM me or looking it up. I guess he decided to ask in a post instead of contacting me because it sounded better to the others here who might be turned off by the lousy customer service "We The People" and myself both independently received from Solid Signal.

And since the Channel Master CM 3045 Multi-Set Indoor Distribution Amplifier with Return Path (CM3045) flat out wouldn't work and my experience with Madame Defarge at Solid Signal was in 2007 I have long since tossed it in the garbage can. What was I supposed to do with it? Hold onto it in case some day Solid Signal would be embarrassed in a forum and decide to respond in that forum to save face?

I just simply vowed never to do business with them again. If they are a few cents cheaper than a more reputable vendor I'd rather buy from the more reputable vendor. I am not poverty stricken where I have to put up with nasty people to save $3 dollars.

John
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post #98 of 189 Old 05-02-2009, 04:34 PM
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folks, i can tell you that SS hasn't mended their ways.

i just received an order from them and there are major issues. talk about a train wreck.

a.) the outer container was significantly bigger than the items i ordered.

b.) the outer container didn't include any packing material (foam peanuts, air pillows, crumpled paper, etc) to prevent my order to being batted, banged and tossed around, which resulted in damaged goods.

c.) FedEx examined the outer container and immediately determined that the outer container doesn't even meet basic construction standards for corrugate shipping boxes. rather, it's a thin, "recycled" box and its integrity was compromised prior to it being used to ship my order. you can use your imagination how 7 pounds of electronic equipment fared when it shipped 1,300 miles across the U.S.

d.) the entire end of the box for one item i order is completely crushed. after closely examining the situation, FedEx and myself believe undoubtedly the damage happened before it was boxed for shipping because the damage to the inner contents is clearly more extensive than the damage to the outer container.

e.) the outer box was haphazardly taped together. so much so, that while it was still taped shut, i could slide my entire hand up to mid-arm under the top or bottom flaps and touch the contents inside without effort. (the over-sized outer container was a contributing factor also.) the flaps on the top and bottom of the box were held together with a single strip of tape, and the tape wasn't proportionately centered across the joining edges of the flaps. it was taped as if no one gave a hoot.

f.) my order was for brand new goods; i received "returned, open items". the buffing, scuffs and scrapes along with the way they were re-packaged inside the manufacturer boxes are dead giveaways that the goods aren't new.

g.) the return labels the previous customer used to send these goods back to SS are still affixed and clearly visible on the front of the manufacturer boxes. additionally, the manufacturer boxes are taped shut with what appears to be household scotch tape, like what's used for wrapping gifts. additionally, the side seams on one of the boxes is bandaged with tape to keep it together and overall the box shows significant signs of wear from rubbing with the top flap splitting away from the box as signs from excess wear 'n tear.

h.) SS actions are grossly negligent because i can easily read the names and addresses of the people who returned the goods. what's that say about SS desire and ability to effectually manage/protect their customer's privacy? (if i had ill intent, the names & addresses could be used for fraudulent/criminal purposes.)

in closing, i'm giving SS 2 business days to address these issues to my satisfaction. otherwise, i will file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau for Detroit/Eastern Michigan; I've already made a preliminary report to the state attorney general's office because their bait 'n switch practices of shipping "returned, opened items" when new items were ordered is a violation of consumer protection laws; the state also believes SS breached customer confidentiality requirements so that's looming over them too. and if SS chooses not to immediately and amicably resolve the issues, i will dispute the charges on my credit card. in fact, i've already made a preliminary call to the bank so i'm ready to pull the trigger there too.

so it's up to SS to quickly make it right and to do so on their dime, not mine since they are the one's who acted so egregiously inappropriate. otherwise without hesitation, i will move full steam ahead with adverse action. the ball is in their court. (i will post an update in the coming days so stay tuned.)
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post #99 of 189 Old 05-02-2009, 05:40 PM
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Wow!!! It was painful to read what happened to you! I was considering using SS to buy a CECB but now I think I'll pay a few bucks more and use amazon.com (..I've had no issues with them so far).

If SS has any sort of credibility they should do cartwheels to help you once you show proof of their multiple outrages. However should they push back at all then "kill, kill, KILL!!!!!".


_Lazza
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post #100 of 189 Old 05-02-2009, 07:37 PM
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Yeah, they suck... But the price is right.

My Channel Master display box was flat out slaughtered,
but the CM-7000 worked fine.
So I simply vowed to never order from them ever again
(If you purchase anything else from them, it gets a box....)

Truely the shipper should know better on this matter,
but the carrier is actually at fault for the box damages.

And Ken thinks this all is a non-issue so I just keep quiet out of respect for him.

Word of advice on Amazon,
they need to validate the card first.
I mean you have to enter the card before you add the item to the shopping cart.
and once thats done, it is gone !!!
(They cannot credit you back)

That is a not a problem unless the webpage a touch outdated and they have no more.

Google it, it is pissing quite a few people off...

I also just tried to purchase from Amazon recently on the last day of a coupon.
(I've purchased from them for years, what few things they've messed up they've corrected free - so good references from me anyway...)

They couldn't validate it.
I did a "Call-Back", they still couldn't

I checked on the .GOV site and was still good.
So I purchased elsewhere (with success).

My point is, use the online call back feature so they can make sure they still have a few units left while your validating the $40 coupon,
or you might get stuck.

Thats all, no biggy.

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post #101 of 189 Old 05-03-2009, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThePeople View Post

And Ken thinks this all is a non-issue so I just keep quiet out of respect for him.

You are missing the point. The only thing I think is a non-issue is shipping a CECB in it's original box.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #102 of 189 Old 05-03-2009, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forty5ford View Post

folks, i can tell you that SS hasn't mended their ways.

i just received an order from them and there are major issues. talk about a train wreck.

What did you order?

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #103 of 189 Old 05-09-2009, 11:04 PM
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We are in rural Iowa and having problems to.
We got used converter boxes in opened boxes with nasty crud on the remote buttons.
No packing was used to protect our order for shipment.
One box rattles and it won’t work. The other is damaged.
Email from them is combative and calls us liars so we are working through the state attorney office.

A sister and her family in Nebraska are having similar problems. They have contacted the U.S. Dept. of Commerce.
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post #104 of 189 Old 05-10-2009, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

The only thing I think is a non-issue is shipping a CECB in it's original box.

Your "non-issue" seems to be indicative of Solid Signal's questionable business ethics and (lack of) customer service as stated by forum members in this and other threads.

It continues to amaze me how some businesses continue to make money despite their best efforts not to. They count on consumer apathy in order to continue to exist and as a whole consumers don't disappoint them.

Vote with your wallets!
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post #105 of 189 Old 05-10-2009, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subeluvr View Post

Your "non-issue" seems to be indicative of Solid Signal's questionable business ethics and (lack of) customer service as stated by forum members in this and other threads.

It continues to amaze me how some businesses continue to make money despite their best efforts not to. They count on consumer apathy in order to continue to exist and as a whole consumers don't disappoint them.

Vote with your wallets!

That is a huge assumption, that is backed up by no more than your one experience and a handful of complaints in this topic. Where are the 'other threads' you reference?

AVS is the largest on line home theater forum. Members here have used Solid Signal for years, and I've never been contacted with a complaint from those who have bought from them.

Having said that, no company is perfect, and if the above complaints are true, then obviously Solid Signal isn't either, but that doesn't mean they have 'questionable business ethics'. It means they have customers not happy with the transaction, which may be the fault of Solid Signal or the fault of the buyer. Speaking of ethics, I think it's unethical to generalize about a company's ethics because of a few complaints.

You say you are (were?) in business. Is every single customer you ever did business with ecstatic with you or your company? I wonder.

I can agree with you on this: Each of us should vote with our wallets.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #106 of 189 Old 05-10-2009, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

That is a huge assumption, that is backed up by no more than your one experience and a handful of complaints in this topic.

No greater than the assumption that you make that Solid Signal is doing right by all its customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

AVS is the largest on line home theater forum. Members here have used Solid Signal for years, and I've never been contacted with a complaint from those who have bought from them.

I wasn't aware that you are the clearing house for complaints regarding retailers on this forum or anywhere else for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Having said that, no company is perfect, and if the above complaints are true, then obviously Solid Signal isn't either, but that doesn't mean they have 'questionable business ethics'. It means they have customers not happy with the transaction, which may be the fault of Solid Signal or the fault of the buyer. Speaking of ethics, I think it's unethical to generalize about a company's ethics because of a few complaints.

Regarding that you THINK it is unethical to generalize about a company's ethics because of a few complaints... I am not generalizing but rather relaying the SPECIFIC facts of my DIRECT experience with Solid Signal just as the others who posted their experiences with Solid Signal in this thread have whether positive or negative.

That those direct experiences confuse you or you don't agree is a perception problem on your part because those experiences are real to the people who dealt with Solid Signal and they are taking issue with the service they received or didn't receive..

When Solid Signal displays misleading and contrary policies on their web site and backstrokes when confronted on this forum regarding those policies and is challenged to provide a simple yes or no answer regarding those policies and they don't, that is unethical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

You say you are (were?) in business. Is every single customer you ever did business with ecstatic with you or your company? I wonder.

Wonder no more... YES, every single customer of mine got/gets a dollar's worth for a dollar and exactly what they expect(ed) when they put their money down. Any customer who even slightly felt they didn't, got/gets a full and complete refund IMMEDIATELY with no shipping or return shipping charges or restocking charges and an apology. I've kept track and in over 20 years of owning and operating two businesses in two different industries that has happened a total of six times. My business ethics are in good order and I never shy away when seeing one of my customers in a restaurant.

And BTW, everything I ship to a customer is packaged according to the industry standard and common sense without the intent of wringing every last cent out of the transaction at the expense of the well being of the customer's property.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

I can agree with you on this: Each of us should vote with our wallets.

We do agree that each of us should vote with our wallets.

I'll agree that what you think has the same value as what I or anyone else thinks and no more or less. We are all free to tell our stories and voice our opinions.

Solid Signal has had ample opportunity to clarify it's policies and has chosen not to either on its own web site or on this forum.

It seems that you are adamant about supporting a local business, and doing that on this forum with the weight of your moderator status rather than as a forum member, but your opinion is still just your opinion.

Ken, you and I will continue to disagree in this discussion and hopefully Solid Signal and its customers will benefit from this diatribe.
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post #107 of 189 Old 05-11-2009, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subeluvr View Post

No greater than the assumption that you make that Solid Signal is doing right by all its customers.

Wrong. I never made any such assumption. As a matter of fact, I already have said if the complaints are accurate, that would be a problem. It’s very unlikely that any company can have every single customer happy.

Quote:
I wasn't aware that you are the clearing house for complaints regarding retailers on this forum or anywhere else for that matter.

There is a lot you’re not aware of when to comes to this forum and my roll here. After more than seven years of moderating, with a well known profile, I hear from members directly on a regular basis regarding their purchases of all types that are discussed on this forum.

Quote:
Regarding that you THINK it is unethical to generalize about a company's ethics because of a few complaints... I am not generalizing but rather relaying the SPECIFIC facts of my DIRECT experience with Solid Signal just as the others who posted their experiences with Solid Signal in this thread have whether positive or negative.

That those direct experiences confuse you or you don't agree is a perception problem on your part because those experiences are real to the people who dealt with Solid Signal and they are taking issue with the service they received or didn't receive..

When Solid Signal displays misleading and contrary policies on their web site and backstrokes when confronted on this forum regarding those policies and is challenged to provide a simple yes or no answer regarding those policies and they don't, that is unethical.

Bologna. Try reading the topic. Solid Signal has already said any customer with a CECB shipping damage issue will get a replacement. This is the problem with your thinking. They say they will make it right if you have a problem. Any further complaining has no value, unless they don't keep their word.

Quote:
Wonder no more... YES, every single customer of mine got/gets a dollar's worth for a dollar and exactly what they expect(ed) when they put their money down. Any customer who even slightly felt they didn't, got/gets a full and complete refund IMMEDIATELY with no shipping or return shipping charges or restocking charges and an apology. I've kept track and in over 20 years of owning and operating two businesses in two different industries that has happened a total of six times. My business ethics are in good order and I never shy away when seeing one of my customers in a restaurant.

With 20 years of business experience, it must be nice to be absolutely perfect.

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post #108 of 189 Old 05-11-2009, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

With 20 years of business experience, it must be nice to be absolutely perfect.

Not perfect just ethical. I treat my customers the way I expect to be treated when I'm a customer and it works nicely thank you.
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post #109 of 189 Old 05-11-2009, 10:10 PM
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i ordered two converter boxes.... 1 Tivax STB-T8 and 1 Channel Master D2A CM7000.

Further update: Solid Signal openly doubted/discounted the problems with my order -- they even questioned my integrity. and further examination of the units revealed more problems than what was initially discovered. the tenor of the email from Audrey was more combative rather than one of being apologetic and genuinely helpful. obstructionist is a good way of describing it. and despite the evidence I provided them via email, they have chosen to completely stop communicating. specifically, my follow-up communication, including additional info they requested, was provided to Audrey Chapman, Customer Satisfaction Manager AND Shay Hanaee, Controller at 1am last Thursday morning and neither of them have responded. since that time, 3 full business days have passed. after the BBB indicated there were "issues" with the business, no effort was made to contact Jerry Chapman, President of The Signal Group LLC. a complaint with the BBB is in the pipeline though.

as a result, I am working in conjunction with the state attorney's general offices in Colorado and Michigan - both of which have come together to work collaboratively to address these matters directly with management at the manufacturers - both Tivax and Channel Master. given their behavior, it's likely that Solid Signal has breached their dealer/distributor contract with both manufacturers. also in the loop is Consumer Support and the Retailer Support Center at the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA), which administers the DTV2009 program through the U.S. Department of Commerce.

both manufacturers have indicated they will promptly intervene to get to the bottom of the matter and press a prompt resolution. if not, the attorney's general and the NTIA are prepared to take it to the next level.

given the resolution is an easy and inexpensive one, all involved are dismayed with Solid Signal's pompousness and stubborn refusal to step up, take accountability for their misdeeds and make it right. (more to follow as material events unfold...)
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post #110 of 189 Old 05-12-2009, 02:04 AM
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You don't have to tell me, I got a CM-7000 in a (Display) box that looked like it was sent from friggin Mars!

When I called to acknowledge the condition of my (STORE DISPLAY) box (before I opened it),
I was ubber-rudly treated.

I made them stay on the phone during my unpackaging and I swear I was treated horrible during the whole affair like I was "putting them out".

I was not home when it arrived or I would have flatly refused it.

I WILL vote with my wallet and never purchase from them again no matter how many have purchased (according to Ken) without fault!

I wish to declare this point. Ken most likely deals with feedback of many items that cost REAL money and are considered a true shipping risk. You have to admit, they have good stuff fiarly cheap (Inexpensive).
Benifit of the doubt applies here as they will likely package an expensive product with care.

Correct me if wrong Ken, but I see little complaints on the net about larger product.

But the problem still stands, DISPLAY BOXES ARE NOT FRIGGIN SHIPPING BOXES!!!!!

Ask USPS, UPS, FedEx.
Oh, and any other vendor that DOES ship them in a (Shippers) certified box!

I feel bad that the real topic is being scewed, but truth be told Solid Signal won't even put on record (in these forums, or It's website) a declaritive answer as to what they're shipping policy is on CECB's. We have all read that thread section by now.

And we all know, what they put on the website is crap if we google it. People ARE getting stuck with boxes because the insured shipments are declared "Insufficient Packaging" by the carriers and they ARE NOT standing by their (Supposed) policy of replacement!

Do I need to pump this forum full of google links proving that?

I prefer not to.



I'd like to move this in a positive direction.
First, that number/extension posted earlier is already invalid.
To SoilidSignal: Please post a current extension and name for the person that handles issues with CECB purchases.

I still think SolidSignal is a reputable vendor, but the slim margin of these CECB's causes them to slap a shipping label on a "Dispaly Box" to make ends meet and still provide a competitive price.

This is (I find) is an acceptable risk-assessment approach considering that there is no funds for the retailers/vendors to get an adjustment on getting these boxes to us USA people. That is our governments fault. These retailers/vendors ARE NOT reimbursed to help implement the ATSC change. All charges in and out are on them. That is crap! They pay to get them, and they pay to ship them.

I've talked to three manufactures recently that have already decide that serving the US is unprofitable (SUMC, CareFree, Etc.) and posted the official replies for some of these companies here. Mostly licensing fees, but partially shipping costs.

But honestly, if a retailer/vendor cannot use the FREE box from their current shipping agent (USPS, UPS, FedEx) to package the display box, then they are just playin the odds with peoples shipments needlessly..

OK Ken, chew me out...

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post #111 of 189 Old 05-12-2009, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by WeThePeople View Post

To SoilidSignal: Please post a current extension and name for the person that handles issues with CECB purchases.

I still think SolidSignal is a reputable vendor, but the slim margin of these CECB's causes them to slap a shipping label on a "Dispaly Box" to make ends meet and still provide a competitive price.

This is (I find) is an acceptable risk-assessment approach considering that there is no funds for the retailers/vendors to get an adjustment on getting these boxes to us USA people. That is our governments fault. These retailers/vendors ARE NOT reimbursed to help implement the ATSC change. All charges in and out are on them. That is crap! They pay to get them, and they pay to ship them.

I've talked to three manufactures recently that have already decide that serving the US is unprofitable (SUMC, CareFree, Etc.) and posted the official replies for some of these companies here. Mostly licensing fees, but partially shipping costs.

But honestly, if a retailer/vendor cannot use the FREE box from their current shipping agent (USPS, UPS, FedEx) to package the display box, then they are just playin the odds with peoples shipments needlessly..

OK Ken, chew me out...

Nothing to chew out. I have contacted Solid Signal and asked them to look at this topic.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #112 of 189 Old 05-12-2009, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

I have contacted Solid Signal and asked them to look at this topic.

Solid Signal has posted in this thread 6 times. They are aware of this thread. Regardless of the bob and weave and rope-a-dope Solid Signal replies, their shipping and return policies posted on their web site are contradictory.

No one that has criticized Solid Signal in this thread has reported a satisfactory resolution and some are following their complaints through, which I applaud.

Setting aside the question of proper packaging of CECBs, the customer service at Solid Signal is questionable. How's that Ken, giving SS enough of the benefit of the doubt?

Solid Signal has had more than enough time to resolve these complaints and set their posted shipping and return policies so everyone knows what to expect before they place their order and after they receive it.
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post #113 of 189 Old 05-12-2009, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by subeluvr View Post

Solid Signal has posted in this thread 6 times. They are aware of this thread.

You always have the perfect answer don't you? Too bad you make so many assumption that could be right or wrong.

Yes, someone at Solid Signal is aware of and has posted in this topic. The question is, who? A company can have many employees and not all of them may be as responsible we would like.

I contacted someone who can decide how they want to handle this.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #114 of 189 Old 05-12-2009, 01:35 PM
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Although solidsignal.com advertises heavily I would expect like many e-tailers they struggle in getting business from the likes of amazon.com. Certainly the average Joe would know to go to amazon.com for a decent price and overall good reputation. For the likes of solidsignal.com to survive they would have to outdo their competition on price, which they seem to be doing, and customer service. Great customer service would gain them further business by word of mouth, like through web sites such as avsforum.com. I think monoprice.com is an example of niche electronics vendor with an excellent customer service reputation. However if solidsignal.com's customer service is less than stellar, let alone nasty, they are totally screwing themselves. After reading these customer horror stories I am not going to buy from them. Most people don't post horror stories just because their bored or like to cause trouble. They do it because they've lost patience and they are angry.

It appears solidsignal.com have a lot of damage to undo. Not a way to run a business.


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post #115 of 189 Old 05-12-2009, 02:48 PM
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Well – here is my answer.
I figured if I was going to explain everything, I should explain everything in great detail.
I am being as transparent as possible. I believe that transparency is the only way to survive in e-commerce. I hope you take the time to read this. I normally do not write this much, but if I am going to get on a soap box, I might as well make a statement.

How We Ship CECB
Early in 2008, we started out double boxing converter boxes. The damaged claims were about the same as what we were used to for boxes that size. Actually, most claims have been and still are for lost or stolen packages. Let me assure you the number is very small. Also, in early 2008, we decided to check out our competitors and purchase from every online company as well (everyone selling online per the NTIA). What we found out was that in almost every case, the online competitor shipped the boxes in original manufacturer boxes. We decided to try those ourselves. What we found out was that the rate of damaged boxes did not increase. I realize that there will be a few of you who feel that since that the package has less protection, the chances for failure over time is higher. Personally, I believe the total shipping distance as well as the shipping hub/route process has more of an impact. The bottom line is that we ship single boxes or orders with multiple boxes of the same size box get shipped in the original manufacturer’s box. Multiple boxes are taped together. Here is what we all get from this process: First, shipping this way keeps costs low which allows us to offer lower prices to customers. Second, shipping this way also gives us the opportunity to “Ship Green” and help the environment as much as possible. Our customers have sent us quite a few emails thanking us. Matter of fact, we have been getting more positive emails about shipping green than we have been getting negative emails about shipping without the double box. Finally, shipping this way helps with getting orders out the door faster. It takes much more time to double box. On many days this year we received many more orders than normal, yet we were able to get all the orders out. Having great people and shipping in original manufacturer boxes truly help make that happen.

Shipping Data
We ship thousands of CECB’s a week. Out of these thousands of shipments, 1-2 issues in a week arise from damaged boxes, which is less than the number of issues we have (as a percentage) with the other products that are double boxed or not. Our numbers are lower than the overall problem shipment percentages from FedEx, and these numbers continue to improve as we work very closely with them. We have concluded that there is less chance for damage to a smaller box, as it relates to the relative weight and size of the CECB.

Unhappy Customers
We guarantee all shipments arrive defect-free. We guarantee that you get what you ordered. If that does not happen, then we will fix the problem, period!

Mistakes - We make them!
As automated as we are, we have 45 people who work together and make decisions. Sometimes we make mistakes. We are very proud of what we have accomplished here. We have grown very quickly because of the customer service and technical support that we offer. We try very hard to offer the best service possible. We fix every problem the best we can. Sometimes our best may not be good enough, but I promise you the 45 people we have right now will try!

Mistakes - We learn from them!
We learn from our mistakes. Much of what we do now is based on something that went wrong. For example, FedEx does a much better job with damage issues than UPS did for us. I say “for us” because we have found many other companies that say the opposite. Where we really notice the difference with the service from FedEx is in large, oversized packages. There are not too many companies that ship 15 foot antenna to almost every state, every day. FedEx has helped us do that. Bottom line, we have learned that we have to earn our customers. Having packages arrive on time and working is the only way.

Communication
Please call us; please email us. It is always best to communicate with us directly. If you feel we are not listening, then by all means use the forum of your choice. We try to follow the forums, but we miss some threads. Like I said before, we do the best we can. I must admit, it is very hard to follow the forums. People get mad and will only talk about what problem they had. Very rarely does a response like this ever satisfy anyone. There is no way to “win” on a forum. I always try to take into account what I am looking for. If a thread goes too negative, I tend to dismiss it. But that’s me. If the negative posts are from people who clearly want to damage a reputation, I ignore them as well. But that’s me. I also spend more time listening to the people who have a large number of posts – I believe that supporting a forum is very important to the success of that forum. But that’s me. I am always amazed at the amount of time people take to support a forum. I am also amazed at the amount of time people take to bash people or companies on a forum. Maybe I am old fashioned that way. I know that sometimes you may not agree with how we handle everything, but we try. If you need the CECB doubled boxed, call us to place your order and we will let you know if we can accommodate you. On the down side, we may not be able to ship double boxed based on our current order volume. On the other hand, be prepared, you might even get a tech support person making sure you have the right antenna or even looking up your address to let you know what you can expect after the transition. Our people love to go the extra mile.

Converter Box Program
We have been working hard to develop the best retail CECB program online. We have been very successful. Success for us means that we have shipped out hundreds of thousands of converter boxes. Success means that we have hired more people. Success means we have established a good relationship with the NTIA/Government. Success means that for the first time, we had the means to take care of our community. If you think that I am way too high on my soapbox skip the rest of this paragraph. Otherwise here is the detail on that comment: currently, we ship hundreds of converter boxes out every week to nonprofit organizations like nursing homes. We deliver the boxes for the price of the coupon free of shipping. We then work with those communities and groups to help them install and make sure their antennas will work after the transition. This is not a spin on something we do to make money. By the time you add shipping to a CECB, it costs us more than $40. We lose money on this program, but it is the first time we can help people doing what we do best. Today, we helped a Boy Scout complete a project by shipping him 50 CECB’s for a nursing home. This particular young man is going to install each one himself. It’s a great feeling to help people who need something that you can deliver. With great pride, I can say we deliver.

Now What?
So that’s it. This is our response. Certainly, it is my response. I am pretty sure that the rest of the people I work with everyday feel this way, too. At this point, I figure I have either given everyone more ammo to shoot at us with or hopefully I have helped the people who are angry to relax and let us work with you. If it was more ammo you are looking for, feel free to shoot. That’s what ammo is for. If you have an issue with an order, please call or email. Below are several numbers and email addresses. Please use them. They are on our website. For those of you reading this thread in order to make a purchasing decision, I hope this helps. We do realize that you have a choice. I promise that SolidSignal.com is a great choice. There are 45 people here who put their heart and soul into this business every single day. That’s why we are a growing business in Michigan. Yep, crazy, but true. Growing and Michigan do not seem to go together much these days.

Happy Customers
If you happen to be one of our happy customers, thanks again for all the support. Thanks for all the great ideas. For the rest of 2009 and beyond, we have some exciting products and solutions coming to SolidSignal.com.

Evolution
I can assure all readers that we are constantly evolving. We are constantly focused on growing without losing our focus on our customers. In the last year, we have more than doubled our sales and shipments, but our number of issues/complaints have gone down, thanks to our suppliers like FedEx and our people. Our customer complaints have gone down more than 50% during the last 12 months. We are definitely still evolving; we have to, just to stay in business.

I hope this helps!

Sincerely,
Jerry Chapman
President/Owner
Signal Group, LLC
Parent Company of SolidSignal.com

People You Can Contact:
Audrey (248) 479-2227 – Customer Satisfaction Manager; Audrey@solidsignal.com
Mae (248) 479-2229 – General Manager; Mae@solidsignal.com
Jerry (248) 479-2222 – President; Jerry@solidsignal.com
When contacting Jerry - As the President of the company, I will do everything I can to answer the phone and take care of your issues personally. I work very hard every day and I am learning that I cannot do everything. I have a great people to help me get everything done. Rest assured, I will personally get involved with whatever issue you have, but you may get a call back or an email from someone else. I will do the best I can.

SS@SolidSignal
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post #116 of 189 Old 05-12-2009, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSignal View Post

Well – here is my answer.
I figured if I was going to explain everything, I should explain everything in great detail.
I am being as transparent as possible. I believe that transparency is the only way to survive in e-commerce. I hope you take the time to read this. I normally do not write this much, but if I am going to get on a soap box, I might as well make a statement.

How We Ship CECB
Early in 2007, we started out double boxing converter boxes. The damaged claims were about the same as what we were used to for boxes that size. Actually, most claims have been and still are for lost or stolen packages. Let me assure you the number is very small. Also, in early 2007, we decided to check out our competitors and purchase from every online company as well (everyone selling online per the NTIA). What we found out was that in almost every case, the online competitor shipped the boxes in original manufacturer boxes. We decided to try those ourselves. What we found out was that the rate of damaged boxes did not increase. I realize that there will be a few of you who feel that since that the package has less protection, the chances for failure over time is higher. Personally, I believe the total shipping distance as well as the shipping hub/route process has more of an impact. The bottom line is that we ship single boxes or orders with multiple boxes of the same size box get shipped in the original manufacturer’s box. Multiple boxes are taped together. Here is what we all get from this process: First, shipping this way keeps costs low which allows us to offer lower prices to customers. Second, shipping this way also gives us the opportunity to “Ship Green” and help the environment as much as possible. Our customers have sent us quite a few emails thanking us. Matter of fact, we have been getting more positive emails about shipping green than we have been getting negative emails about shipping without the double box. Finally, shipping this way helps with getting orders out the door faster. It takes much more time to double box. On many days this year we received many more orders than normal, yet we were able to get all the orders out. Having great people and shipping in original manufacturer boxes truly help make that happen.

Shipping Data
We ship thousands of CECB’s a week. Out of these thousands of shipments, 1-2 issues in a week arise from damaged boxes, which is less than the number of issues we have (as a percentage) with the other products that are double boxed or not. Our numbers are lower than the overall problem shipment percentages from FedEx, and these numbers continue to improve as we work very closely with them. We have concluded that there is less chance for damage to a smaller box, as it relates to the relative weight and size of the CECB.

Unhappy Customers
We guarantee all shipments arrive defect-free. We guarantee that you get what you ordered. If that does not happen, then we will fix the problem, period!

Mistakes - We make them!
As automated as we are, we have 45 people who work together and make decisions. Sometimes we make mistakes. We are very proud of what we have accomplished here. We have grown very quickly because of the customer service and technical support that we offer. We try very hard to offer the best service possible. We fix every problem the best we can. Sometimes our best may not be good enough, but I promise you the 45 people we have right now will try!

Mistakes - We learn from them!
We learn from our mistakes. Much of what we do now is based on something that went wrong. For example, FedEx does a much better job with damage issues than UPS did for us. I say “for us” because we have found many other companies that say the opposite. Where we really notice the difference with the service from FedEx is in large, oversized packages. There are not too many companies that ship 15 foot antenna to almost every state, every day. FedEx has helped us do that. Bottom line, we have learned that we have to earn our customers. Having packages arrive on time and working is the only way.

Communication
Please call us; please email us. It is always best to communicate with us directly. If you feel we are not listening, then by all means use the forum of your choice. We try to follow the forums, but we miss some threads. Like I said before, we do the best we can. I must admit, it is very hard to follow the forums. People get mad and will only talk about what problem they had. Very rarely does a response like this ever satisfy anyone. There is no way to “win” on a forum. I always try to take into account what I am looking for. If a thread goes too negative, I tend to dismiss it. But that’s me. If the negative posts are from people who clearly want to damage a reputation, I ignore them as well. But that’s me. I also spend more time listening to the people who have a large number of posts – I believe that supporting a forum is very important to the success of that forum. But that’s me. I am always amazed at the amount of time people take to support a forum. I am also amazed at the amount of time people take to bash people or companies on a forum. Maybe I am old fashioned that way. I know that sometimes you may not agree with how we handle everything, but we try. If you need the CECB doubled boxed, call us to place your order and we will let you know if we can accommodate you. On the down side, we may not be able to ship double boxed based on our current order volume. On the other hand, be prepared, you might even get a tech support person making sure you have the right antenna or even looking up your address to let you know what you can expect after the transition. Our people love to go the extra mile.

Converter Box Program
We have been working hard to develop the best retail CECB program online. We have been very successful. Success for us means that we have shipped out hundreds of thousands of converter boxes. Success means that we have hired more people. Success means we have established a good relationship with the NTIA/Government. Success means that for the first time, we had the means to take care of our community. If you think that I am way too high on my soapbox skip the rest of this paragraph. Otherwise here is the detail on that comment: currently, we ship hundreds of converter boxes out every week to nonprofit organizations like nursing homes. We deliver the boxes for the price of the coupon free of shipping. We then work with those communities and groups to help them install and make sure their antennas will work after the transition. This is not a spin on something we do to make money. By the time you add shipping to a CECB, it costs us more than $40. We lose money on this program, but it is the first time we can help people doing what we do best. Today, we helped a Boy Scout complete a project by shipping him 50 CECB’s for a nursing home. This particular young man is going to install each one himself. It’s a great feeling to help people who need something that you can deliver. With great pride, I can say we deliver.

Now What?
So that’s it. This is our response. Certainly, it is my response. I am pretty sure that the rest of the people I work with everyday feel this way, too. At this point, I figure I have either given everyone more ammo to shoot at us with or hopefully I have helped the people who are angry to relax and let us work with you. If it was more ammo you are looking for, feel free to shoot. That’s what ammo is for. If you have an issue with an order, please call or email. Below are several numbers and email addresses. Please use them. They are on our website. For those of you reading this thread in order to make a purchasing decision, I hope this helps. We do realize that you have a choice. I promise that SolidSignal.com is a great choice. There are 45 people here who put their heart and soul into this business every single day. That’s why we are a growing business in Michigan. Yep, crazy, but true. Growing and Michigan do not seem to go together much these days.

Happy Customers
If you happen to be one of our happy customers, thanks again for all the support. Thanks for all the great ideas. For the rest of 2009 and beyond, we have some exciting products and solutions coming to SolidSignal.com.

Evolution
I can assure all readers that we are constantly evolving. We are constantly focused on growing without losing our focus on our customers. In the last year, we have more than doubled our sales and shipments, but our number of issues/complaints have gone down, thanks to our suppliers like FedEx and our people. Our customer complaints have gone down more than 50% during the last 12 months. We are definitely still evolving; we have to, just to stay in business.

I hope this helps!

Sincerely,
Jerry Chapman
President/Owner
Signal Group, LLC
Parent Company of SolidSignal.com

People You Can Contact:
Audrey (248) 479-2227 – Customer Satisfaction Manager; Audrey@solidsignal.com
Mae (248) 479-2229 – General Manager; Mae@solidsignal.com
Jerry (248) 479-2222 – President; Jerry@solidsignal.com
When contacting Jerry - As the President of the company, I will do everything I can to answer the phone and take care of your issues personally. I work very hard every day and I am learning that I cannot do everything. I have a great people to help me get everything done. Rest assured, I will personally get involved with whatever issue you have, but you may get a call back or an email from someone else. I will do the best I can.

slap some more lipstick on the pig Jerry.

contrary to your assertions, issues are NOT being resolved. neither audrey nor shay have answered my emails, let alone resolved the issues with my order. if they had done so, the attorney's general, the NTIA and the manufacturers would not be involved.

your posts here are meaningless -- fronts guised in the vein of sincerity which doesn't exist. save consumers your empty words and lip service by putting your money where you mouth is. your business took my money and my trust then ran. in return, i received junk goods, no resolution to the issues and your associates stopped communicating.

the actions and inaction of your business are tantamount to abusing customer's trust. if you personally were so inclined to make sure customer problems are resolved, then in the least you would intervene with the issues posted here and personally contact these customers yourself to ensure that the issues are being satisfactorily handled then follow up later to ensure a resolution was completely finalized. random quality assurance tests by executive management without the knowledge of your associates, including persons related to you, would garner you high valuable insight about how matters are being handled. that's the only way you'll gain any credibility from me, and i suspect other feels the same way.

in closing, at 5:39PM today i forwarded jerry and mae the emails i sent to audrey and shay -- the ones that have gone unanswered. so here's a perfect chance for them to intervene and prove Solid Signal satisfactorily resolves problem orders. my offer to jerry and mae was simply to resolve the issues with my order and i'd gladly let the attorney's general, ntia and manufacturers (tivax and channel master) know that an amicable resolution was obtained through SS. i further stated that i would post an in kind message in this forum that reflects the same.
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post #117 of 189 Old 05-13-2009, 08:45 AM
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Please give me a call.
We left you a voice mail this morning.

Mae: 248-479-2229

Quote:
Originally Posted by forty5ford View Post

slap some more lipstick on the pig Jerry.

contrary to your assertions, issues are NOT being resolved. neither audrey nor shay have answered my emails, let alone resolved the issues with my order. if they had done so, the attorney's general, the NTIA and the manufacturers would not be involved.

your posts here are meaningless -- fronts guised in the vein of sincerity which doesn't exist. save consumers your empty words and lip service by putting your money where you mouth is. your business took my money and my trust then ran. in return, i received junk goods, no resolution to the issues and your associates stopped communicating.

the actions and inaction of your business are tantamount to abusing customer's trust. if you personally were so inclined to make sure customer problems are resolved, then in the least you would intervene with the issues posted here and personally contact these customers yourself to ensure that the issues are being satisfactorily handled then follow up later to ensure a resolution was completely finalized. random quality assurance tests by executive management without the knowledge of your associates, including persons related to you, would garner you high valuable insight about how matters are being handled. that's the only way you'll gain any credibility from me, and i suspect other feels the same way.

in closing, at 5:39PM today i forwarded jerry and mae the emails i sent to audrey and shay -- the ones that have gone unanswered. so here's a perfect chance for them to intervene and prove Solid Signal satisfactorily resolves problem orders. my offer to jerry and mae was simply to resolve the issues with my order and i'd gladly let the attorney's general, ntia and manufacturers (tivax and channel master) know that an amicable resolution was obtained through SS. i further stated that i would post an in kind message in this forum that reflects the same.


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post #118 of 189 Old 05-13-2009, 05:55 PM
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It is a long read, but that answer was in there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSignal View Post

Communication
....
If you need the CECB doubled boxed, call us to place your order and we will let you know if we can accommodate you. On the down side, we may not be able to ship double boxed based on our current order volume.



SolidSignal, I am a lost customer because of the bad attitude I received when I called in describing the condition of the box (as I opened it live-time).

Quote:
"I made them stay on the phone during my unpackaging and I swear I was treated horrible during the whole affair like I was "putting them out"."
The box's damage was the shipping carriers fault, but a box on the outside would have meant the inside box would only have been mildly messed up.

I also agree that UPS isn't pronounced "OOOPS" for no good reason...
FedEx has always been the better choice, and way better on claims.

If I ever find that post-it with the name on it Jerry, I will forward the order number, date & time of day, and most importantly the person that turned me away from ever ordering from your company again. You deserve at least that with the effort I see you putting forth here.

Ken, I see your point, your right.
They are good people.

I (Of course) curse the shipping carrier,
but lower my opinion of what happened to that of an overworked employee that should have taken a break instead of another tech-help call.

Now about those I found with Google that DID NOT get the box replaced,
and were told they were shipped with insufficient packaging by the carrier.

You might want to find out why your employee's did not replace them in the first place so they didn't have to try a claim with the carrier.

It takes a bit of search term variance, but they're many:
Reseller Ratings
1st, the customer is referred to the manufacture:
"First they told me they could not take it back and give me another one because it's a government program and I would have to contact the manufacturer"

Then the ball gets dropped:
"Eventually, they agreed to send me a return label to send it back to them for a replacement. However, they have never done that."


I'm not posting this as a specific thing.

I simply scrolled half way down a random page and grabbed an example.
I do also note that a positive referrence to "Audrey" is posted as solution.

I don't want this example pounced upon,
it is just an example of a huge number of exactly the same thing going wrong.

A person calls, they get messed with, they post, THEN an offer to fix it is replied.

This seems to be a repeating formula, I hope this helps.
We all know your top Customer Service Representitives ARE NOT answering your phones,
so the people you are utilizing are (apparantly) causing the most reputation damage.

At the risk of being obvious, don't take my word for this.
Read the endless pages of people that are disatisfied with your phone support team
and correct this.

I hope I've helped in a positive manor...

James Clerk Maxwell spins in his grave,
not along his long axis,
but head over heel
We The People
Doppler Effect: Effect of stupid ideas appearing smarter when they come at you rapidly!
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post #119 of 189 Old 05-13-2009, 10:05 PM
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It has been awhile since I have re-read resellerratings.com. I gave up using them as information (data) when I was convinced my competitors were posting. We could never figure out who the customer was, and we could not even get a reply to our responses on the site. I do have it monitored, but for the most part the data is hard to work with and untrue. Here is how I look at it: Bottom line is that in the last few years we have shipped out more than 300,000 orders, more than 400,000 packages, and we have 29 complaints on this site. You tell me - is that good or bad? How many complaints do we have on this forum? Is the number high or low? How many complaints de we have on this thread that is now 4 pages long? We work very hard to solve problems. Thats why we get the orders. Thats why I am respondig at Midnight EST.

So, without focusing on others, with out looking for patterns, what can we do for you? Drop me an email at jerry@solidsignal.com and I will try to help out. I realize that you are unhappy with our customer service - I will try to fix that.

By the way - most spam blockers eat our return labels for lunch.

Jerry Chapman
248-479-2222



Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThePeople View Post

It is a long read, but that answer was in there...





SolidSignal, I am a lost customer because of the bad attitude I received when I called in describing the condition of the box (as I opened it live-time).

Quote:
"I made them stay on the phone during my unpackaging and I swear I was treated horrible during the whole affair like I was "putting them out"."
The box's damage was the shipping carriers fault, but a box on the outside would have meant the inside box would only have been mildly messed up.

I also agree that UPS isn't pronounced "OOOPS" for no good reason...
FedEx has always been the better choice, and way better on claims.

If I ever find that post-it with the name on it Jerry, I will forward the order number, date & time of day, and most importantly the person that turned me away from ever ordering from your company again. You deserve at least that with the effort I see you putting forth here.

Ken, I see your point, your right.
They are good people.

I (Of course) curse the shipping carrier,
but lower my opinion of what happened to that of an overworked employee that should have taken a break instead of another tech-help call.

Now about those I found with Google that DID NOT get the box replaced,
and were told they were shipped with insufficient packaging by the carrier.

You might want to find out why your employee's did not replace them in the first place so they didn't have to try a claim with the carrier.

It takes a bit of search term variance, but they're many:
Reseller Ratings
1st, the customer is referred to the manufacture:
"First they told me they could not take it back and give me another one because it's a government program and I would have to contact the manufacturer"

Then the ball gets dropped:
"Eventually, they agreed to send me a return label to send it back to them for a replacement. However, they have never done that."


I'm not posting this as a specific thing.

I simply scrolled half way down a random page and grabbed an example.
I do also note that a positive referrence to "Audrey" is posted as solution.

I don't want this example pounced upon,
it is just an example of a huge number of exactly the same thing going wrong.

A person calls, they get messed with, they post, THEN an offer to fix it is replied.

This seems to be a repeating formula, I hope this helps.
We all know your top Customer Service Representitives ARE NOT answering your phones,
so the people you are utilizing are (apparantly) causing the most reputation damage.

At the risk of being obvious, don't take my word for this.
Read the endless pages of people that are disatisfied with your phone support team
and correct this.

I hope I've helped in a positive manor...


SS@SolidSignal
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post #120 of 189 Old 05-13-2009, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSignal View Post

So, without focusing on others, with out looking for patterns, what can we do for you?

You can do nothing for me, but have regained a lot of respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSignal View Post

more than 300,000 orders, more than 400,000 packages, and we have 29 complaints on this site.

I am now sorry I chose that (Random) response to use as example.

At the time I was considering what to do with a second coupon I had weeks to accumulate opinion (On box and retailer). I chose a second CM-7000 (by trade on AVSForum.com for a Zenith unit from an un-satisfied customer) instead. I am happy now.

My 1st order however was a Channel Master CM-7000 (slightly dented corner / completely shredded display box) that works fine.

and the "Display" box was thrown away in spite of any need to use it for warranty return (If needed) because it was shredded dust upon arrival.

If I ever sent it "In" it would be considered abused beacause of that "Corner" and not be repaired under warrenty.

Your odds look fantastic, so I succumb.

I guess I have just learned that people complain more than they compliment.
(Or Google Prioritizes complaints...)

I now yield that I would order from your outfit again considering the attempts here to correct things.

But seriously, the web is full of people not happy,
they got stuck with non-working CECB's (Within weeks of delivery),
I guess thats a never ending curve though...


Thank you Jerry

Oh, and we didn't get to choose the forum (page) length,
We got stuck at a supidly low value per page
considering the forum engine type used and the technical information delivered.

James Clerk Maxwell spins in his grave,
not along his long axis,
but head over heel
We The People
Doppler Effect: Effect of stupid ideas appearing smarter when they come at you rapidly!
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