DTVPal series, Modify casing to improve air-flow- Increase lifespan /stability - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 04-10-2009, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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RE: Modifying DTVPal series casing (housing) to improve air-flow- Purpose to increase lifespan of unit.

(And maybe stability- for those with earlier units, not using the Silicon tuner... the Silicon tuner generating less heat?)


Info to keep in mind:

Dish only warranties unit for 90-days- Hence from a design perspective they care little about the unit lasting long term...

(Who here thinks a company builds something to the SAME specs when the warranty is only 90-days as a unit with a 1, 2, or 5 year warranty?)

UPDATE 2010-02-15:

Step by Step Guide on How to mod DTVPal Series to increase airflow, reduce temps, increase lifespan of unit.


Couple of weeks ago finally got around to modding the DTVPAL Plus units.

DTVPal series units uses a Cam-shell casing design.
No screws hold casing together.

To Split open case:
Best way is to insert a flat blade screwdriver about 1/8 inch into either of the (2) release tabs on REAR of unit. While keeping slight pressure on the tab on the side you're working on, use a plastic gift card /debit card/credit card at the seam closest to the latch you are depressing, Angled down slightly from straight down vertical.
(If you were looking at a clock the card would be at the 1pm, and 7pm position) In addition you might use a small knife)

Start at the very rear, and work your way towards the front.

Once you get one side going, insert something into the already opened section (EG a spare gift card) to keep it from re-latching, then do the other side. Once both sides are un-latched lift the rear of the upper housing up slightly while using the same credit card /thin piece of plastic to dis-engage the (2) locking tabs along the front.

Once casing is apart.
Remove PCB board.
Board removes from front (where LED light is) To remove dis-engage locking tabs, pull slightly towards you to make rear input/output/power connections clear casing. (Imagine how your foot comes out of your shoe)

Once board is out:
On the bottom casing there is a backpanel molded in, to keep the unit appearing stock and to minimize dust, but at the same time vent the case I drilled multiple holes around the entry and exit ports /power connector input.

No holes were drilled in upper casing, nor anywhere else.

Once holes are drilled, debur, reassemble case.

Most time consuming part of mod is deburing all the holes you drill.

I counted roughly 80 holes drilled in the back plate. Keep all holes you drill on the VERTICAL section of the backing plate.
(Backing plate is the section all the input/output/power input connector run thru.)

***************
Tools needed:

Good light
Drill
3/32 drill bit
Plastic Credit/debit/gift card
Small pocket knife
A "larger" drill bit to debur the holes drilled with the 3/32 bit. Say 6/32 (3/16)

Potential Problem area:

When using a knife be aware that board components can be easily damaged. When using a knife try not to insert more than 3/16- 1/4 inch while working casing apart.

.

*******

Search words

DTVPal , TR-40, TR-40CRA ,Dish, Dish Network CECB digital converter box, tuner, crash, crashing,rebooting, lock up, locking up, unit frozen, freezing up, won't power on, off, random resets, non responsive, powering off at random, not responding to remote, runs hot, running hot, reduce, reducing operating temp, temperature, no vents, ventilation, no air flow, lack of cooling, decrease, decreased, increase lifespan, heat build up

=
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post #2 of 19 Old 04-10-2009, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Reserved space for links, etc


Links:

DTVPal Plus Microtune MT2131 tuner:

As per Beeper:
DTVPal Plus model CECB features a different tuner compared to previous versions of the DTVPal/TR-40. It is a Microtune MT2131 and advertised by Microtune to be an advanced single-chip terrestrial tuner optimized for ATSC tuners.:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post15140367


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post #3 of 19 Old 04-14-2009, 01:47 PM
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One could install a cooling fan inside the box for forced air cooling. An old laptop computer CPU fan/heatsink assembly from ebay might a good way to find a tiny fan on the cheap. Many of them contain a small air plenum to channel air out of the laptop. With a hacksaw, dremel tool and some epoxy it could be adapted to fit inside a DTVpal.
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post #4 of 19 Old 04-16-2009, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreNotAlone69 View Post

. RE: Modifying DTVPal series casing (housing) to improve air-flow- Purpose to increase lifespan of unit.
Alternative method to increase cooling- without modification of case
1: Stand unit upright- .....Any thoughts on this? .

hmmmmm.....well....just how hot does it get? too hot to touch? or close to that?

discussions about things like temperature are very subjective and prone to interpretation errors in a forum like this....theres lots of potential for misunderstandings, etc.....but ...having said that > i have two TR40's (which i did check for heat issues when i first got them months ago) and they both seem to run fairly cool...warm, at most...the bottom of the case is warmer than the top or sides but nowhere near 'too hot'.....warm, at most....would be my description....

the 2 rf coax connectors are warm but also nowhere near 'too hot'....

since the bottom is the warmest i stood mine upright, as u suggested, just to be safe but i do not see heat as a real potential problem....

and my guess is that drilling some vent holes in the case would cause no problems, for most people....

*** its high time to go back to OTA antennas and CANCEL our cable/satellite pay tv services! their greed is totally & insanely out of control! ***
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post #5 of 19 Old 04-26-2009, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pm3839 View Post

hmmmmm.....well....just how hot does it get? too hot to touch? or close to that?

since the bottom is the warmest i stood mine upright, as u suggested, just to be safe but i do not see heat as a real potential problem....

I agree, I also have my DTV Pal Plus turned 90 degrees.

When horizontal, the top of the case only gets about 20-25 degrees F above ambient, but the bottom can be 30-40 degrees or more above ambient (checked with IR non-contact thermometer).

I don't reccomend drilling holes in the case. Aside from the danger of reducing the EMI shielding, this will allow possible dust entry into the case.

I seen old TV's with several mm of dust coating the heat sinks of high power dissipation heat sensitive internal parts, and it is this factor, more than age, that will eventually cause failures (as even a thin layer of dust can cut cooling by more than half by preventing direct air contact).

So, I would put away the drill, and just flip your Pal around into the vertical 'mini-tower' mode (looks kind of cool that way anyway).

I suggest putting the RF connector side down (with the DC connector from the wall-wort at the top). Heat rises due to convection, so this puts the sensitive tuner input circuits where the temprature will be lowest (good for a few degrees lower RF input device temperature, which should help a little with input noise figure).

Also, it goes without saying that you will want to avoid putting the Pal on top of another device that generates a lot of heat.

When placed in the vertical orientation, after 8 straight hours of operation, my DTV Pal Plus now shows a quite reasonable 20 degree F rise on all external surfaces (barely warm to the touch).

- Delphin
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post #6 of 19 Old 04-26-2009, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Delphin,

Good call on putting the tuner towards the bottom as it increases the volume of cooler air in the tuner area.
(Better in a standard casing with no vents- if the case is vented the components generating the most heat might be better served if their heat exits the case before heating up other components.)

On the EMI shielding, there is none.

On the dust issue, I understand this issue fully but other units and devices have cooling slots... The Zinewell ZAT-950A being a very close match design wise (Plastic casing, External power supply.)

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post #7 of 19 Old 04-29-2009, 12:13 AM
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My AccessHD was running very hot (couldnt really keep my hand on it for a minute) so I popped the plastic cover and using a 3/16 inch drill bit, enlarged all the holes. It made a huge difference in temps.
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post #8 of 19 Old 04-29-2009, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

My AccessHD was running very hot (couldn't really keep my hand on it for a minute) so I popped the plastic cover and using a 3/16 inch drill bit, enlarged all the holes. It made a huge difference in temps.

RE: Enlarging cooling holes deceasing operating temps.


What keeps on running thru my mind is that most boxes only have a 90-day warranty... and that the mfg's are only concerned if their boxes make it out of that period.

To me keeping the temps down is common sense as it increases component life.

BTW: Always a pleasure to read your posts on the Digital Home forums:

http://209.29.131.153/forum/showthread.php?t=99907


PS: Did you:
A: Notice any increase in RF interference after you increased the size of the cooling holes
B: Happen to notice if the AccessHD case was made of any kind of exotic materials / or had built in shielding?



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post #9 of 19 Old 08-07-2009, 04:18 PM
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Any new results?
Is this box easy to take apart?

Judging from the heat in the bottom, an aluminum plate on the bottom would help.
Set on something that doesn't wick heat, they get way too hot.
Shielding material is available on rolls, including mu metal.

After hearing they are discontinued, I ordered one more.
I have been fairly happy with the reception.

The heat level is absurd for something with an external power supply.
I'm leaning towards some big vents.
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post #10 of 19 Old 08-08-2009, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THX-1138 View Post

Any new results?
Is this box easy to take apart?

Judging from the heat in the bottom, an aluminum plate on the bottom would help.
Set on something that doesn't wick heat, they get way too hot.
Shielding material is available on rolls, including mu metal.

After hearing they are discontinued, I ordered one more.
I have been fairly happy with the reception.

The heat level is absurd for something with an external power supply.
I'm leaning towards some big vents.

Box is pretty easy to take apart...


On the rear there are (2) slotted holes. To release those push in about .125 -.250. This will release the locking tabs.

Note to keep the tabs from re-locking.... You will at the same time release a side tab to give enough "give" so the case halves begin to seperate. To do this apply inward pressure on rear locking tab(s) while at the same time taking a thin blade knife to locking tabs along each side of case.



"Tabs" are on upper housing
The part the "tabs" engage on on lower housing.

(2) rear (behind slots, rear of casing)
(2) on each side of case (first set above 1/2 inch from REAR of case, the 2nd set- above a inch from the front.
(2) on front on case... about .500 inch (1/2 inch) from each corner.
Total= 6 locking tabs. All protruding from upper section of case housing.


Been above a 4 months since I last opened a unit... But I remember pushing in the rear locking tab(s), while taking a thin bladed knife from the topside of the unit (unit in position with DTVPal Plus skin screen in normal position) and sliding the knife between the housing halves at a downward angle and prying to detach upper tab from lower hook.

(Note that it's sort of hard to depress both rear locking tabs, while trying to manipulate the side locking tabs... so pick one side, unlock a rear tab while prying a side locking tab... Once you get it going keep pressure to keep the tabs from re-locking.... Once you get the side locking tabs release the case swings open from the rear... and then the front locking tabs should disengage.)

NOTE: the PCB board is around .250 inch below the seam... So control the knife... Looks like even if you don't there is nothing to get damaged... the only thing I see that might get damaged is there is a capacitor near the RIGHT REAR LOCKING SLOT that if your were to depress the tab IN beyond .375 that might get damaged.



(I'm looking at a box right now that has the case halves separated... so the above should be pretty much spot-on....... But it's been a 4 months! since I popped the box apart)


Answer to next question... I have not modded of my units casing(s) yet- as I was waiting for the (BIG.., ha-ha) 90-day warranty to expire before doing so...

Unit on primary TV case as stock (intact) sitting on end... RF CONNECTORS at BOTTOM... Power connector at TOP...


.


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post #12 of 19 Old 08-09-2009, 01:38 PM
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Interesting thread I wasn't aware of until now.

No radiation problem with holes if very small, swiss cheese the thing if you want (there's even boxes and metal sheeting made like this if you want to create a new container for your CECB rather than drill the crap out of it). When I was at Motorola it was common to shield circuits on the PCBs with small versions of these shields, the holes were for IR reflow soldering of the underlying components. We were up to 2-3 GHz. The small holes/spacing is much smaller than the wavelength. Typical was 1/16" diameter hole spaced about that diameter apart (could probably double or triple that for DTV freqs). Get out the drill press!

Of course if the PCB circuits are properly shielded and filtered then the guts don't even need a box.

Another idea: Add a coax to the RF Out connector even if you don't use it (i.e. composite or s-video). Even better might be a real short coax with something chunky screwed on the end like an unused splitter, etc. Will help heatsink the tuner and nearby circuitry (ideally they should place the hot stuff near the tuner module for coax heatsinking).

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post #13 of 19 Old 02-14-2010, 11:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Step by Step Guide on How to mod DTVPal Series to increase airflow, reduce temps, increase lifespan of unit.


UPDATE:

Couple of weeks ago finally got around to modding the DTVPAL Plus units.

DTVPal series units uses a Cam-shell casing design.
No screws hold casing together.

To Split open case:
Best way is to insert a flat blade screwdriver about 1/8 inch into either of the (2) release tabs on REAR of unit. While keeping slight pressure on the tab on the side you're working on, use a plastic gift card /debit card/credit card at the seam closest to the latch you are depressing, Angled down slightly from straight down vertical.
(If you were looking at a clock the card would be at the 1pm, and 7pm position) In addition you might use a small knife)

Start at the very rear, and work your way towards the front.

Once you get one side going, insert something into the already opened section (EG a spare gift card) to keep it from re-latching, then do the other side. Once both sides are un-latched lift the rear of the upper housing up slightly while using the same credit card /thin piece of plastic to dis-engage the (2) locking tabs along the front.

Once casing is apart.
Remove PCB board.
Board removes from front (where LED light is) To remove dis-engage locking tabs, pull slightly towards you to make rear input/output/power connections clear casing. (Imagine how your foot comes out of your shoe)

Once board is out:
On the bottom casing there is a backpanel molded in, to keep the unit appearing stock and to minimize dust, but at the same time vent the case I drilled multiple holes around the entry and exit ports /power connector input.

No holes were drilled in upper casing, nor anywhere else.

Once holes are drilled, debur, reassemble case.

Most time consuming part of mod is deburing all the holes you drill.

I counted roughly 80 holes drilled in the back plate. Keep all holes you drill on the VERTICAL section of the backing plate.
(Backing plate is the section all the input/output/power input connector run thru.)

***************
Tools needed:

Good light
Drill
3/32 drill bit
Plastic Credit/debit/gift card
Small pocket knife
A "larger" drill bit to debur the holes drilled with the 3/32 bit. Say 6/32 (3/16)

Potential Problem area:

When using a knife be aware that board components can be easily damaged. When using a knife try not to insert more than 3/16- 1/4 inch while working casing apart, then switch to Plastic Credit/debit/gift card.

.
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post #14 of 19 Old 10-21-2010, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Little update:

249 days later and the Modified DTVPal Plus's are still working....

Wife runs the unit in the front for at least 4+ hours each night....


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post #15 of 19 Old 10-22-2010, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreNotAlone69 View Post

Little update:

249 days later and the Modified DTVPal Plus's are still working....

Wife runs the unit in the front for at least 4+ hours each night....


.

Would be interesting to compare it against anyone who hasn't done the mod to see if there is any difference. Overall...are these still up and running, mod or not?
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post #16 of 19 Old 10-24-2010, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fjgindy View Post

Would be interesting to compare it against anyone who hasn't done the mod to see if there is any difference. Overall...are these still up and running, mod or not?

There are those that might be inclined to take temp readings, before and after.... If you search the net you may find that info (if it is there).

All I can tell you is the unit(s) got quite warm before, and run cooler now with less lock-ups.

The hardest part (not really hard) is popping the case halves apart.... Well that and de-burring about 80+ ventilation holes...


Facts:

1: Other units on the market have ventilation holes /slots.

2: Reducing temps of electronic components increases lifespan, and/or increases stability.

3: DTVPal units "came" with a 90-day warranty.

4: It would be rare to find a "new" DTVPal that is under warranty.

Fact they came with 90-day warranty- May be indicative of how unit was "spec'd". Shows you how much faith Dish has in product.

On a product that has a 90-day warranty- vs a 1, 5 year, or LIFETIME warranty as a general rule cheaper components can, and /or are used.

A unit will a such a short warranty gives the company selling such a "out", on failures that occur after 90-days. (Translation they are not concerned with the long term)

Because the warranty is so short- design features (or higher spec'd components) that extend the life of the product are left out.


Pros and cons of adding (small diameter) ventilation holes:

Pro: Unit runs cooler
Pro: Unit will last LONGER
Pro: Increased stability.
Pro: Less lock-ups from heat related issues.

Con: Dust intrusion
Con: Having increased air circulation may increase *heat-cycling induced stresses.

*The only downside of adding cooling vents=Increases the rate things cool-off when unit is turned on/off which increases thermal stress. This said because the unit does run cooler this may be a non-issue.)
Con: Voids your warranty.
Con: Risk of damage when opening case halves.


PS: Since ALL DTVPAL units are beyond the 90-day warranty period "opening" the case, modding the case is not going to void your warranty.

It's not like the units have a *1, 5 year or Lifetime warranty...

*The only time you would have a "warranty" at this point in time beyond rare exceptions of finding a dealer selling old stock that is offering a warranty is if the unit was bought with a credit card that extends /adds to the warranty.

If you do find any dealers, or "deals" post that info in the sticky:

Post DTV Transition CECB converter boxes availability!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1183648

Excerpt:

The reason for this thread is the DISCUSSION OF DEALS, LINKS TO VENDORS WHO ARE STILL STOCKING CONVERTER BOXES

Please post some links to vendors that have units in stock , or are expecting a re-stock. Links to ANY "deals" you may have seen /heard about!!!


.
.
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post #17 of 19 Old 10-25-2010, 09:49 AM
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For the less workshop-inclined they could buy one of those mini fans to turn on and point at the box while it's on. I caught one on sale for $5 and it has an adjustable frame. Also make sure the box isn't too close to any other warm electronics.

Speaking of fans I discovered a conducted problem with the Zinwell 970A when a fan is on the same circuit (or I suspect any other motor, inductive, transient-generating device). The Zinwell goes nuts on a VHF channel if I turn the fan on or change the fan speed. It works fine after I retune the station and as long as I don't change the fan speed. I suspect a better wall-wart/power supply or a big capacitor on the output of the wall-wart would do the trick. Hopefully the Pals don't have this problem but...

Didn't most of the CECBs have 90 day warranties? I saw a few with 1 year part-only warranties but don't see the point in that if it has to be repaired at an authorized service center that's going to nail ya for more than more than the box is worth. Anyhow I don't think all the CECBs were designed based on a 90 day warranty, rather the price of the boxes didn't warrant longer terms. Much of the design for reliability and mfg in a product like this is standardized these days. I was impressed with some of the guts I've seen on these threads but can't speak for all the CECBs. A hot box is a concern though. Do the Pals have built-in power supplies?

I forgot about the credit card warranty extensions, thanks for reminding me!

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post #18 of 19 Old 10-27-2010, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydage View Post

For the less workshop-inclined they could buy one of those mini fans to turn on and point at the box while it's on. I caught one on sale for $5 and it has an adjustable frame. Also make sure the box isn't too close to any other warm electronics.

Speaking of fans I discovered a conducted problem with the Zinwell 970A when a fan is on the same circuit (or I suspect any other motor, inductive, transient-generating device). The Zinwell goes nuts on a VHF channel if I turn the fan on or change the fan speed. It works fine after I retune the station and as long as I don't change the fan speed. I suspect a better wall-wart/power supply or a big capacitor on the output of the wall-wart would do the trick. Hopefully the Pals don't have this problem but...

Didn't most of the CECBs have 90 day warranties? I saw a few with 1 year part-only warranties but don't see the point in that if it has to be repaired at an authorized service center that's going to nail ya for more than more than the box is worth. Anyhow I don't think all the CECBs were designed based on a 90 day warranty, rather the price of the boxes didn't warrant longer terms. Much of the design for reliability and mfg in a product like this is standardized these days. I was impressed with some of the guts I've seen on these threads but can't speak for all the CECBs. A hot box is a concern though. Do the Pals have built-in power supplies?

I forgot about the credit card warranty extensions, thanks for reminding me!

Adding fans:
1: Fans won't do anything on the DTVPal series units- the housing is TOTALLY sealed... There is NO airflow thru the unit, NONE. UNIT IS TOTALLY SEALED.

2: While I'm a big fan of anything that will increase performance, longevity, or stability and all kinds of hacks... Fans added in after the unit is UL rated, especially the cheaper you go are a fire hazard, something else to replace /point of failure /operational ,RF noise, another power brick to add to power bill, and or load on A/C system while in use/phantom load when not being used... also a issue for those with pets, small children. Can also be a issue if say a FIRE occurs.

3: Passive design (Cooling holes /slots)= No moving parts.... While it can be argued that drilling holes in the case might be viewed by those looking to void a insurance claim as in the case of FIRE, adding passive cooling to a device (if done tastefully-EG: appearing factory) is far less likely to be seen as a contributing factor to the cause of a fire.

4: Not to be argumentative and I fully understand that adding external fans may be for some the extent of their workshop abilities, but fans (Unless it's 25hp) won't cool a non-modified unit enough to make a difference.
With the case being so easily opened (pops open in about a minute) and only basic tools required to drill some holes it's a no brainer when you consider *passive vs active cooling pros and cons. FireMarshalls, inspectors, investigators take a very dim view of things that don't look stock/factory/to code if they are called in (EG: A fire). External, additional fans, wiring of such unless it's done to military spec could get you into deep legal /financial do-do... real quick.

Warranty- How it influences design, spec of components:

Yep, most CECB's had a 90-day warranty, And yes the price figured into the warranty length.


On 90-day warranties being the standard- And that lovely out of parts only, not labor on 1-year warranties..

1: 90-days is a joke- Customer having to pay return shipping on DOA items is a insult as well- in those cases it occurs. (Mfg should eat it)

1-year should be considered the minimum... parts and labor. (See #2)

(Yes I understand cost concerns to manufacturer. DTVPal was for me= the most expensive box(s) per unit after the coupon was applied so they should have had a 1-year at min = See #2 below.)

2: Most failures on electronics occur within the first 30-days-, or YEARS into ownership. So going to 1-year statistically is NOT a issue, that is if you're not making (or designing) junk /sub-standard equipment.

3: Longevity... Costs.... As you know manufacturers look at cost of each component and will try to save money whenever they can. "Warranty length", the period of to me implies how much faith the manufacturer has in their product.

4: RE: A hot box is a concern though. Do the Pals have built-in power supplies?

DTVPal, Echo TR-40 has NO AIRFLOW MOVEMENT THRU THE CASE and is TOTALLY SEALED as designed and marketed. (None needed to get you to 90-days....)

DTVPal uses a external power supply. (Which is good so far as heat generated inside the case as you know)

Other units with external power supplies have cooling slots, Zinewell 970, Artec (model ID escapes me) as a example.

Anytime you reduce temps you increase lifespan,.... as you probably already know.


* Depending on location-(EG: The tropics, Desert) active cooling may be desirable over passive.

DTVPal series cooling options:
A: Drill holes in case=Passive
B: Drill holes/ or slots in case-point external fan at modified case.
C: Mount a fan directly on/in case.
D: Remove top cover and point fan towards bare PCB board to provide air movement.
E: For hard core mod types... the ultimate.... Use liquid cooling....

In all cases to reduce operating temps the "case", regardless of Passive or active needs to be modified in some way.


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post #19 of 19 Old 10-28-2010, 11:42 AM
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The case is small, and correct me if I am wrong but didn't you guys say the case was warm? The heat has to escape somehow unless the ambient temp is extremely high. Of course pointless if the box the electronics are in is huge relative to the thermal footprint of the electronics. Nonetheless the vents are ideal and a fan is inefficient without them and it appears based on your results unnecessary with them.

I assume #2 and the last part of #4 are referring to internal fans (maybe you misunderstood me). I see no issue with pointing a 'UL approved' mini fan (ex: desk fan) at the box and turning it off when the box is not in use (I use a power strip for my entire setup). A last resort though, if it were me I'd do what what you did (better, more efficient, etc.).

Do you feel heat on the connectors? If so you can add heat-sinking to the connectors in clever ways (ex: screw unused splitter to unused RF Output connector).

Yeah the 90 day warranty is a joke, and with the fine print hassles as if they're trying to make it poinless for us. I wonder if 90 days was a minimum gov't requirement? I just don't think they wanted to deal with returns, inventory stocking, etc. even if they had great design. The stuff I've seen thus far looks like standard PCB design, component, mfg, etc. that I see in longer warranteed electronics (I haven't seen the inside of a Pal). The major chips come from the big players so I'm not suspicious of those. The worst I've seen are the wimpy remote controls, wall warts, and some of the connector/PCB-to-case mounting techniques (or lack thereof).

Glad to hear the Pals have external power supplies. Yeah not a good sign they're getting that hot even with the power supply heat not being inside the unit.

BTW some of the major chips in some units have heat sinks attached to the top as those are the parts that should have the most thermal stress (external power supplies). Another idea for someone that knows what they're doing.

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