Zenith (LG) DTT900 CECB - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 10:05 AM
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I've experienced the audio problems with my Insignia, but the NCAA tournament on CBS seem especially bad. Almost to the level of fingernails-on-a-chalkboard bad, at times. Switching to mono has no effect, except to make the volume louder. Luckily I still have the option to turn off the box and watch the game in analog. I would not recommend this CECB to anyone until LG fixes this problem.
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post #632 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 11:51 AM
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Just Like to chime-in here. I have 2 Zenith DTT900 boxes both wired in stereo.
(Dated Nov 2007)
One to a Sony 60" SXRD via a ReplayTV DVR. The other to an older 23" Samsung in the bedroom. I'm not using any AV gear, so all audio gets reproduced thru the TV's.
Either my hearing is worse that I thought, or I'm not having the noise problem. I don't watch these all the time, so maybe I just haven’t caught it happening yet.
(I've had them for about 2 weeks)
Perhaps there is something going on with the broadcast market where we live.
This new digital era is bound to have a few kinks, and perhaps, some stations handle them better than others.

In the Indy area and working fine,

Chris C
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post #633 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visualsensation View Post

I've experienced the audio problems with my Insignia, but the NCAA tournament on CBS seem especially bad. Almost to the level of fingernails-on-a-chalkboard bad, at times. Switching to mono has no effect, except to make the volume louder. Luckily I still have the option to turn off the box and watch the game in analog. I would not recommend this CECB to anyone until LG fixes this problem.

What game was on in your area? I caught the last few minutes of the Duke game and didn't notice anything.

Other people have mentioned it is the S's and T's of people speaking that makes the "chirp", what did you notice? Was it the voices, crowd noise, squeaking shoes?

I thought I was noticing something with the sound when watching ABC news in the morning, but I switched back and forth between analog and digital and thought it might be nothing.

FWIW, my zenith box is a NOV 2007 build.
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post #634 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atrac View Post

Tonight, "Lost" on ABC is a show that is definitely broadcast in Dolby Digital 5.1. Try watching it to hear if the audio is bad.

atrac: As you requested, I watched a fifteen minute portion of "Lost" on ABC and attempted to hear bad audio. Once again, as with the other DD 5.1 shows I have watched, I heard no bad audio (as has been defined in many posts in this thread). I used my Zenith CECB (built Jan. 2008) connected via composite red, white, yellow to my Toshiba 27A51 (built Jan. 2002) CRT TV. Sound was acceptable, even good.

During transitions from program to commercial or back, I could momentarily hear a medium high pitch hum, but this disappeared after the audio feed resumed. During "Lost" I think I heard one 4 to 5 second portion of dialog (speech) where a few words contained break-up or distortion at the end of the words. This may have been a small sampling of the audio issue being discussed here, however it was very short and not particularly noticeable. Others have described the audio issue as constant.

Here's a Spec note from my Toshiba 27A51 CRT TV:

AUDIO INPUT: 150 mV (rms) (30% modulation equivalent, 47 ohm)

I expect this is a standard red/white composite audio spec, but I do not actually know.

Could the audio issue being discussed possibly be explained by LG's use of one of two possible can tuners inside the box? It has mentioned and illustrated several times in this thread and elsewhere that some of the Zenith/Insignia CECB's use a Sanyo can tuner and others use an LG can tuner. Could one of these tuners exhibit the audio problem, possibly via RF interference, where the other tuner does not?

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post #635 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avio View Post

atrac: It has mentioned and illustrated several times in this thread and elsewhere that some of the Zenith/Insignia CECB's use a Sanyo can tuner and others use an LG can tuner. Could one of these tuners exhibit the audio problem, possibly via RF interference, where the other tuner does not?

Avio

My Zenith has the audio issue and the tuner inside is a Sanyo...though I don't understand how a tuner could create this issue. Regardless, it would be interesting to know what make of tuner is inside of the converters owned by ones not experiencing this problem.
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post #636 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBri99 View Post

What game was on in your area? I caught the last few minutes of the Duke game and didn't notice anything.

Other people have mentioned it is the S's and T's of people speaking that makes the "chirp", what did you notice? Was it the voices, crowd noise, squeaking shoes?

I thought I was noticing something with the sound when watching ABC news in the morning, but I switched back and forth between analog and digital and thought it might be nothing.

FWIW, my zenith box is a NOV 2007 build.

Yep, its the "S" and soft "C" sounds mostly (the announcer just said "unnecessary" and it was one long piercing sound), and "F" words to a lesser extent ("Four Fouls..."). It's happening in all the games that are being broadcast in HD.

These sounds are very high frequency, so maybe not everyone is able to hear them.

My box is November 2007.
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post #637 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wh5916 View Post

My Zenith has the audio issue and the tuner inside is a Sanyo...though I don't understand how a tuner could create this issue. Regardless, it would be interesting to know what make of tuner is inside of the converters owned by ones not experiencing this problem.

wh5916: Ok, I closely studied BobDiaz Post and Pics of the inside of the Zenith box:



Then I used a flashlight and magnifying glass to look thru the top air vent holes on the box at the tin-can tuner. I compared the portions of what I could see with Bob's photo above and concluded I have a Sanyo can tuner marked UBA00AL - just like Bob's.

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post #638 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avio View Post

wh5916: Ok, I closely studied BobDiaz Post and Pics of the inside of the Zenith box:

Then I used a flashlight and magnifying glass to look thru the top air vent holes on the box at the tin-can tuner. I compared the portions of what I could see with Bob's photo above and concluded I have a Sanyo can tuner marked UBA00AL - just like Bob's.

Avio

Avio, thank you for the photo. My newly purchased Zenith has a Sanyo tuner as well, but over here the audio issue is painfully evident with the right source material. I may wait a couple of weeks, then go to our nearby Circuit City to see if any converters have been received with a newer manufacture date than the one on my box, which is January 2008. If so, I'm going to explain what's happening and try to switch boxes.
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post #639 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 04:46 PM
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If anyone would like to hear what many of us are experiencing with the Zenith/Insignia converters, the link below contains a zipped folder featuring a brief audio clip (under 8 seconds), taken from "NBC Nightly News" earlier this evening. The download is under 500k:

http://www.mediafire.com/?yuvynylztuv

The zipped folder actually contains two very high bitrate mp3 clips--the Zenith DTT900 was the source, with its audio output set for stereo.

One clip is left channel only, and the other is right channel only. The high-pitched "chirping" that many are experiencing is plainly audible in the left channel clip--but it should be noted that the quality of your speakers, and even your hearing, might possibly make the sound difficult or impossible to discern.

Also in the folder is a jpeg, showing a side by side comparison of a brief portion of each clip, as loaded into a wavefile editor set for spectrum display. In particular, note a portion of both clips that begins roughly at the 1 second 250 ms mark. The "chirping" sound (as the announcer is saying the word "Fenton") is visible as a green sort of rectangle in the left channel. There is also a great deal of blue that's visible in the left channel spectrum, above the 11,000 hz portion of the display, that you won't see in the right channel. This, again, is a graphic representation of the audible "chirping" noise.
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post #640 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 05:25 PM
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I have noticed hissy sounding S's occasionally over the years on several different tvs, radios, arcade games, slot machines, and PA systems.

How can we say "the digital transition is complete" when thousands of low power stations are still broadcasting in analog?
LOW POWER ANALOG NEEDS TO DIE NOW!!!
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post #641 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n4yqt View Post

According to the picture, it looks like an LG chip in the center. That Sanyo silver component on the right looks like an RF modulator.

The Sanyo is apparently both a tuner and RF modulator? It contains both 75 ohm input and output connectors.
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post #642 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 05:55 PM
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The audio clips are really helpful in understanding what to listen for.

Now that I know exactly what it sounds like, I can do some additional tests on my boxes (Zenith and Insignia) and let everyone know what I hear... However,, this may take a few days.

Bob Diaz
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post #643 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wh5916 View Post

The Sanyo is apparently both a tuner and RF modulator? It contains both 75 ohm input and output connectors.

The RF Modulator generates the CH 3/4 output signal.


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post #644 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

The RF Modulator generates the CH 3/4 output signal.

Of course, but this particular Sanyo unit has both RF in and out connectors...so I'm guessing that it's serving double duty, both as tuner and RF modulator.

Update...turns out that this is indeed the case. A quick Google search led me right back to another posting on this forum, which provided a link to the specs for the Sanyo tuner--which does indeed also include an RF modulator:

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/...9;BEJ9QKE00710
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post #645 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobDiaz View Post

The audio clips are really helpful in understanding what to listen for.

Now that I know exactly what it sounds like, I can do some additional tests on my boxes (Zenith and Insignia) and let everyone know what I hear... However,, this may take a few days.

Bob Diaz

I'm glad it helped--capturing that audio required temporary rewiring of the equipment in the den. Good luck with your own testing!
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post #646 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 07:01 PM
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Here is a strange problem with the LG NS-DXA1. I get all the locals that my Dish VIP211 picks up with the exception of one station. That station comes in at about 74% on my VIP211. On the LG NS-DXA1 the signal strength meter shows the bar go all the way up to GOOD.....but the station does not appear, the screen says 'No Signal'. What is up with that? I should be getting the station on the LG NS-DXA1 with that strong of a signal but I don't. Does any one have a answer?
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post #647 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 07:18 PM
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Results of test #1, Zenith Box, November 2007, NBC News, yes I can hear the strong "s" sound on the left channel. Right sound is OK. Depending on your hearing, this may or may not be bad. I believe that anyone with a strong loss of the upper frequency range may not even notice this.

As seen in message 638 & 641 the box has the Sanyo tuner.


The next test is a bit harder, because I need to re-wire things around to hear it direct.
Currently it's wired to the Stereo TV through a Panasonic DVR / DVD Recorder.

Will report on the Insignia Box later on....


Sincerely,

Bob Diaz
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post #648 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wh5916 View Post

If anyone would like to hear what many of us are experiencing with the Zenith/Insignia converters, the link below contains a zipped folder featuring a brief audio clip (under 8 seconds), taken from "NBC Nightly News" earlier this evening....

YES!! Thank you for that! Now people have an audible representation of the problem!

When played through my laptop speakers, it's not nearly as bad as when it's coming out of a rather large speaker in my living room. I can see why some people may not hear it so well when it's coming out of little stereo speakers from a television.

But as the visual graph shows, it's there.
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post #649 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wh5916 View Post

Of course, but this particular Sanyo unit has both RF in and out connectors...so I'm guessing that it's serving double duty, both as tuner and RF modulator.

Huh? All of the CECBs have an RF (antenna) in and a RF out. It is a requirement. Not all analog TVs have line input jacks, so a RF output is required.

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post #650 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wh5916 View Post

Also in the folder is a jpeg, showing a side by side comparison of a brief portion of each clip, as loaded into a wavefile editor set for spectrum display. In particular, note a portion of both clips that begins roughly at the 1 second 250 ms mark. The "chirping" sound (as the announcer is saying the word "Fenton") is visible as a green sort of rectangle in the left channel. There is also a great deal of blue that's visible in the left channel spectrum, above the 11,000 hz portion of the display, that you won't see in the right channel. This, again, is a graphic representation of the audible "chirping" noise.

Thanks for the files. It is very obvious from the Spectrum display that the audio above 11k is too hot on the left side. I suspect that once the audio leaves the processor IC that it is amplified/volume controlled by another IC. It may be that the amplifier feedback loop on the left channel has a problem. If I EVER get my coupons, I'm going to pick up a Zenith and backtrack the audio with an oscilloscope. Should be a fun challenge.
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post #651 of 2451 Old 03-21-2008, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wh5916 View Post

Also in the folder is a jpeg, showing a side by side comparison of a brief portion of each clip, as loaded into a wavefile editor set for spectrum display. In particular, note a portion of both clips that begins roughly at the 1 second 250 ms mark. The "chirping" sound (as the announcer is saying the word "Fenton") is visible as a green sort of rectangle in the left channel. There is also a great deal of blue that's visible in the left channel spectrum, above the 11,000 hz portion of the display, that you won't see in the right channel. This, again, is a graphic representation of the audible "chirping" noise.

I've done a FFT of the two channels:

http://vidiot.com/images/Zenith_CECB_FFT.png

No need to tell you which color is for the left channel. I don't think the right channel is without its problems, but it is no where near as screwed up as the left channel.

To really check this out, would be to capture the digital audio stream and save it as a WAVE file, which will convert from DD5.1 to DD2.0. The same segment of snslog audio from the Zenith would also be captured. Then all four channels would be FFT'd to compare what the Zenith does to both channels.

One thing is for sure, the Zenith is bad.

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Has anyone contacted LG, Zenith or Insignia about the sound problem and if so what have they said?
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post #653 of 2451 Old 03-22-2008, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bugmenot55 View Post

Has anyone contacted LG, Zenith or Insignia about the sound problem and if so what have they said?

I called Insignia and was told to return it. When I said that I would not get my coupon back, they could not comment because they claimed to know nothing about it.

I went ahead and exchanged it for another one; that did not resolve the issue.

This is going to be a major hassle.
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post #654 of 2451 Old 03-22-2008, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Huh? All of the CECBs have an RF (antenna) in and a RF out. It is a requirement. Not all analog TVs have line input jacks, so a RF output is required.

I fully realize that, but someone else in this thread speculated that the Sanyo "tin can" that's in the Zenith was nothing more than an RF modulator. I was simply trying to point out that the Sanyo "tin can" that's in the Zenith serves as both tuner and RF modulator.
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post #655 of 2451 Old 03-22-2008, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

I've done a FFT of the two channels:

http://vidiot.com/images/Zenith_CECB_FFT.png

No need to tell you which color is for the left channel. I don't think the right channel is without its problems, but it is no where near as screwed up as the left channel.

To really check this out, would be to capture the digital audio stream and save it as a WAVE file, which will convert from DD5.1 to DD2.0. The same segment of snslog audio from the Zenith would also be captured. Then all four channels would be FFT'd to compare what the Zenith does to both channels.

One thing is for sure, the Zenith is bad.

No question at all as to which is the left channel--and the high frequencies involved would certainly help explain why some cannot detect this issue.

Thankfully, most of my television viewing consists of having a 14 inch RCA set on as background, while I'm on the computer, in this bedroom. With the Zenith output set for mono, and fed via its RF modulator into this room, the audio issue isn't noticeable at all...but played back through the den stereo, it's intolerable.
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post #656 of 2451 Old 03-22-2008, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atrac View Post

I called Insignia and was told to return it. When I said that I would not get my coupon back, they could not comment because they claimed to know nothing about it.

I went ahead and exchanged it for another one; that did not resolve the issue.

This is going to be a major hassle.

Sigh, this is no surprise--and I'll wager that their call center is outsourced as well, with employees who are probably only equipped to answer basic questions about setup/operation.

If they get enough complaints and returns, then perhaps LG engineers somewhere will take note and attempt to correct the issue with future builds of the converter. That certainly doesn't help anyone who has already made the purchase though.
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post #657 of 2451 Old 03-22-2008, 12:21 PM
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The following files are 4 seconds of audio from the Duke/WV game, recorded around 2:24 PM EDT.

I used the RCA output into the mic input on my PC, recorded a .wav file with Goldwave, then saved each channel separately as a file.

The zip file is 670 KB
The zip file contains (2) 347 KB .wav files.

http://www.mediafire.com/?gezhixgysnj

I don't see (or hear) the high frequency "spike" like I did on the other recording posted here.
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post #658 of 2451 Old 03-22-2008, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wh5916 View Post

I fully realize that, but someone else in this thread speculated that the Sanyo "tin can" that's in the Zenith was nothing more than an RF modulator. I was simply trying to point out that the Sanyo "tin can" that's in the Zenith serves as both tuner and RF modulator.

OK, sorry about the misunderstanding.

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post #659 of 2451 Old 03-22-2008, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBri99 View Post

The following files are 4 seconds of audio from the Duke/WV game, recorded around 2:24 PM EDT.

I don't see (or hear) the high frequency "spike" like I did on the other recording posted here.

Is your input both mic and line? The line output from a device should not go into the mic input, as the levels are drastically different.

Are you sure that the broadcast was even stereo, let alone DD5.1? The left channel equaled the right channel, except that the right channel had a 1/88400 delay, as compared to the left channel.

When I did a FFT of the audio, the spike that starts at 11 kHz is definately there, in both channels, also leading me to believe that the capture was mono.

For those who are capturing audio from the Zenith series of converters, I'd like to suggest that it be a single stereo WAV file. Otherwise, I and others, have to recreate the stereo in order to do a single FFT on both channels.

UPDATE: I converted to 88.4 kHz and shifted the right channel one sample. The shift isn't exactly 1/88400, but a lot closer. So when I did an inverted sum, I got real close to zero output. The audio is mono.

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post #660 of 2451 Old 03-22-2008, 02:45 PM
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Location: LA, Calif
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Here are the photos of the inside of my Insignia box. From everything I can see, it is the same as the Zenith. I forgot to take a photo of the two remotes side by side, but they are the same too.

Both Boards:



Main Board, Side View, Straight above:



Main Board Side View, At An Angle:



Main Board, Back View:



Power Board:



Bob Diaz
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Reply Coupon Eligible Converter Box (CECB)

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