ATSC Converter Box comparisons - Page 32 - AVS Forum
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post #931 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebo View Post

There is also a much better guide from Gemstar called TV Guide On Screen or TVGOS. It's broadcast by agreement with one or more local stations (often PBS) and carries 8 days worth of guide info for local and some cable channels. It's been around for years on analog stations, and it's moving over to digital. Of the announced CECBs, only the Echostar TR-40 sounds like it will support TVGOS. I don't know if it will also support the stations' EPGs if TVGOS is unavailable.

I have been using TVGOS for a few years now, and I hate to loose it just because of the switch to DTV. That is why I asked about if any DTV converters support it (or something very much like it). For me, my version of TVGOS gets its info thru the NTSC tuner, and I doubt any firmware updates to change that will become available.

I don't think that even the DTV converters that support EPG, take the digital EPG info, convert it into the TVGOS format, and adds it to the VBI of the converter's output. True?
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post #932 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 01:06 PM
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None of the NTIA CECB boxes use TVGOS, it would require liscensing and the rules say they must use OTA PSIP.

Tho most of the boxes I have seen do a poor job with EPG at best.

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
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post #933 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 01:23 PM
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Same here. I really want the TR-40, and if it does everything I'm hoping it will do, I don't mind one bit paying the full price for it.

I don't really need them - I've already got 3 standalone, HD tuners.

The only things I'm really interested in are how good the sensitivity is, and if any of them can be controlled by any of my 3 recorders with IR blasters, to use on a 2nd, 32" analog set. I may keep one if it does (the Zenith or RCA might), or I may just give them both away, since the TR-40 will have a timer, anyways.
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post #934 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafner View Post

"Something for nothing"

Not true. Remember in a free society such as ours in the USA, consumers pay for everything, either directly, through purchases, or indirectly through the goverment.

Where do you think companies and governments get money? Their only source is consumers.

Therefore all of us are paying for the converter boxes in one way or the other.

fafner

The funding for the CECB coupon program is from a portion of the revenue of the auction of spectrum(i.e. - our public airwaves, in this case portions of it directly in use by broadcasters and OTA viewers) that is currently used by broadcasters and OTA viewers and is being reallocated to other uses after analog shut off. Which makes perfect sense IMO.

See here for the facts :

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/otiahome/dtv...ctsheetDTV.pdf

All of us do not purchase products or services from those companies who won the auction bids involved.

Here is a story on the most recent of these auctions :

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...=SUPP&nid=2228

Of course, it's the manufactuers and retailers of the CECB's who are getting the $$ from the coupons, thus they are the ones being subsidized here, correct ? ..... The same folks who did not include DTV reception equipment in the vast majority of their products until the FCC forced them to do so, in a manner which didn't go into effect for all TV's/VCR's etc with analog "tuners" in them until March 2007, some 11 years after the legislation was enacted that said analog TV was going to be shut off, and almost 10 years from when the first DTV stations started hitting the airwaves ....

Jeff
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post #935 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billcsho View Post

This one does, but it is a bit expensive.

Does it really? You can confirm that it has s-video AND "squeezed" aspect ratio option? the link you give says nothing about that aspect ratio.
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post #936 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddnhead View Post

Thanks. Now if someone would just create a CECB box that pairs that with s-video output ...

Exactly what I was looking for. The channel master mc-7000 does this, and is the ONLY one afaik right now.
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post #937 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddnhead View Post

Does it really? You can confirm that it has s-video AND "squeezed" aspect ratio option? the link you give says nothing about that aspect ratio.

you could always go to their offical site (google) and/or even call them (they quite prominently displayed contact info iirc)...

edit: http://www.channelmaster.com/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

The funding for the CECB coupon program is from a portion of the revenue of the auction of spectrum(i.e. - our public airwaves, in this case portions of it directly in use by broadcasters and OTA viewers) that is currently used by broadcasters and OTA viewers and is being reallocated to other uses after analog shut off. Which makes perfect sense IMO.

See here for the facts :

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/otiahome/dtv...ctsheetDTV.pdf

All of us do not purchase products or services from those companies who won the auction bids involved.

Here is a story on the most recent of these auctions :

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...=SUPP&nid=2228

Of course, it's the manufactuers and retailers of the CECB's who are getting the $$ from the coupons, thus they are the ones being subsidized here, correct ? ..... The same folks who did not include DTV reception equipment in the vast majority of their products until the FCC forced them to do so, in a manner which didn't go into effect for all TV's/VCR's etc with analog "tuners" in them until March 2007, some 11 years after the legislation was enacted that said analog TV was going to be shut off, and almost 10 years from when the first DTV stations started hitting the airwaves ....

iirc that sounds correct. i don't care enough to scour them to see if ALL money was gotten from the auction or just part, but $990-1.5bn was/will be spent on these coupons (not all of which i'm sure will be consumed) and $15 or $16bn+ was made off the sale of the previously-analog tv spectrum.

but that aside, other countries, especially europe, have higher total taxes but none so far have implemented a voucher program with their switchovers... that's enough for me to consider this to be "free"
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post #938 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 06:00 PM
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There's a user's manual online, thanks to mosquito. It says pan and scan, so doesn't that say it is not anamorphic? I'm still learning all this stuff.

http://www.freedtvshop.com/fdtv/converters/cm7000.php
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post #939 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

There's a user's manual online, thanks to mosquito. It says pan and scan, so doesn't that say it is not anamorphic? I'm still learning all this stuff.

http://www.freedtvshop.com/fdtv/converters/cm7000.php

I read through the manual, but can't find if the Auto-Power Down can be defeated. I need to keep the box on all the time to work with an IR blaster.

Anyone?...Thanks,

Chris C
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post #940 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrider2 View Post

I read through the manual, but can't find if the Auto-Power Down can be defeated. I need to keep the box on all the time to work with an IR blaster.

Page 6 shows it under setup menu option but you are correct it doesn't tell you what the options are. I know I have seen it, can't seem to find it when you need it, but the auto-power down is to be defaulted to 4 hours and can be defeated by the end user. I know I read that somewhere but like I said I can't find it right now.
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post #941 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebo View Post

Each broadcast subchannel is supposed to provide an EPG with information about current and upcoming programs. You have to tune to each subchannel to get its guide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbsc View Post

I have a Samsung DTB-H260F (not CECB) and it doesn't appear to work the way you describe. In it's guide if I scroll up and hit a subchannel (X.2 etc) first it tries to get PSIP info, if it fails because of a misaligned antenna or whatever it will try again when I scroll up one further to the main channel (X.1). If the box gets a signal lock however it will get PSIP data for all the subchannels at once.

For the CECBs to do it in the way you describe they would have to actively throw out data, which is frankly pretty stupid.

I agree it doesn't make much sense, but that's the way the PSIP guide for the MyHD cards works. It shows a scrollable grid of subchannels that retains the program info for those recently tuned. If you tune to a subchannel, it will fill in the info for that subchannel, but not for others in the same RF channel. Looks like Samsung does it better.
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post #942 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaltA View Post

I have been using TVGOS for a few years now, and I hate to loose it just because of the switch to DTV. That is why I asked about if any DTV converters support it (or something very much like it). For me, my version of TVGOS gets its info thru the NTSC tuner, and I doubt any firmware updates to change that will become available.

I don't think that even the DTV converters that support EPG, take the digital EPG info, convert it into the TVGOS format, and adds it to the VBI of the converter's output. True?

Over in the LG LST-3410A thread (and probably others) there's hope that a tuner such as the Echostar TR-40 which uses the digital version of TVGOS will convert it to an analog version and insert that on the composite and RF outputs, and that it can be used to keep the guide active on a device that needs the analog version. Maybe it'll happen but I think it's pretty unlikely, especially since there are two analog versions being broadcast now. The LG DVR needs v.7 and the Sony DVR needs v.8.
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post #943 of 1867 Old 04-01-2008, 09:21 PM
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Here is a site i came across compairing some of the boxes. http://www.birds-eye.net/article_arc...ere_to_buy.htm
Also here is a site http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Converter...ers.html#name1
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post #944 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 01:43 AM
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Denca DAC-100 & TBX1005A were added to latest CECB List.
Upgraded RCA DTA-800B1 model now has PASS THRU:
https://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm
Googling doesn't reveal any additional information for these boxes....

========================
FCC's EAS Search for HID devices (Part 15 Emission Test) revealed
updated Zenith/Insignia clones (not yet on CECB List):
https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/...ericSearch.cfm

Zenith DTT901 with PASS THRU provided by new TDVG-H151F Tuner.
Insignia NS-DXA1-APT (APT...get it? with Analog Pass Thru) & same tuner.

Both are listed as Service Number LSX300-4PM (found on circuit board).
"Transfer Switch" isolation test appears to be for the PASS THRU switch.

=========================
Daewoo DAC-200 & DAC-300 models were resubmitted after mods
to control unintended emissions with ferrite cores and (ugly) internal
shielding plates supplementing the plastic. [Not yet on CECB list.]

Since the Test Report also included a Transfer Switch isolation test, I would
conclude the Thomson DTT76850 tuner is capable of providing PASS THRU.

Hence Channel Master CM-7000 with Thomson DTT76850 tuner
should support PASS THRU as well.....[DJ99 claims it does NOT...????]

Some other people should recheck the CM-7000 for Pass-Thru.....
Maybe it works on some models....or it's somehow disabled????

=========================
So I went back and reviewed earlier Test Reports.....

Coship N9900T & CASTi CAX-01 included a Transfer Switch test....
hence they have PASS THRU. Both use LG TDVG-H052F tuner.

==========================
NONE of the above boxes is found on the current (3/3/08)
"Digital-to-Analog Converter Boxes (DTAs) Qualified Product List":
http://www.energystar.gov/ia/product..._prod_list.xls
Maybe they'll be on the next update.....
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post #945 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebo View Post

Over in the LG LST-3410A thread (and probably others) there's hope that a tuner such as the Echostar TR-40 which uses the digital version of TVGOS will convert it to an analog version and insert that on the composite and RF outputs, and that it can be used to keep the guide active on a device that needs the analog version. Maybe it'll happen but I think it's pretty unlikely, especially since there are two analog versions being broadcast now. The LG DVR needs v.7 and the Sony DVR needs v.8.

There are more than just those two. There's 1 through 6, and 9.
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post #946 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onan38 View Post

Here is a site i came across compairing some of the boxes. http://www.birds-eye.net/article_arc...ere_to_buy.htm
Also here is a site http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Converter...ers.html#name1

Errata:
1. They misplaced the RCA ASIC part number into the tuner column and
thereby left off the Thomson tuner.

2. LGDT111 should be LGDT1111.

Geez, if they're simply gonna copy the spread sheet, at least copy it correctly.....
Though must give some credit for fixing my typo in LG tuner
part number....H052F vice N052F....
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post #947 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebo View Post

The LG DVR needs v.7 and the Sony DVR needs v.8.

Gee, I wonder which Toshiba uses?
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post #948 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddnhead View Post

Does it really? You can confirm that it has s-video AND "squeezed" aspect ratio option? the link you give says nothing about that aspect ratio.

Do any output 1080i, to support HDTV sets which only have an NTSC tuner?
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post #949 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaltA View Post

Do any output 1080i, to support HDTV sets which only have an NTSC tuner?

Short answer - no. These CECBs are intended only to provide 480i analog output to legacy NTSC TVs. Their video outputs are intentionally limited to RF modulator, Composite and optionally S-Video. Their audio outputs are limited to RF and Stereo Analog.

If you want HDTV - then you need something like the Samsung DTB-H260F.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Being A Beacon of Knowledge in the darkness of FUD
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post #950 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 06:15 AM
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Hey Mr. holl_ands. I have been reading all the posts on DTV hardware and reception for a month or so. Is there a chart or list someplace that indicates which of these 50 or 60 boxes support adding channels manually after an auto-scan, without losing what you picked up on the auto-scan? Reason being having to re-orientate antenna after the auto-scan to pick up the rest of the channels on different compass headings?
Just thought you might know, or have an idea. THanks

Dave E

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post #951 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plonk420 View Post

you could always go to their offical site (google) and/or even call them (they quite prominently displayed contact info iirc)...

edit: http://www.channelmaster.com/

Yes, I know that, and as I wrote, I already did that. That is why I was asking for confirmation of that, I know the CM-7000 has s-video, but I am surprised to hear it has anamorphic/squeezed (I believe those are essentially the same thing?) because when I did go look at the spec sheet, it does NOT list that capability: spec sheet for CM-7000. Nor does the 20 page user manual have any mention of this capability.
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post #952 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whodart View Post

Hey Mr. holl_ands. I have been reading all the posts on DTV hardware and reception for a month or so. Is there a chart or list someplace that indicates which of these 50 or 60 boxes support adding channels manually after an auto-scan, without losing what you picked up on the auto-scan? Reason being having to re-orientate antenna after the auto-scan to pick up the rest of the channels on different compass headings?
Just thought you might know, or have an idea. THanks

Dave E

That is the purpose of the EZAdd indicator.
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post #953 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 10:00 AM
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Hi cia_viewer. Thanks, but I guess I missed that in all my searching. It sounds like it does what I am asking about, and I assume you don't lose what you got on auto-scan? Or do you just EZAdd all the stations you can pick up? Regards

Dave E

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post #954 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 11:49 AM
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holl_ands,

Thanks for breaking the news on all these new models. Wow, this is getting as complex as toothpaste. So the best is yet to come. Which models are you waiting for?
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post #955 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddnhead View Post

I know the CM-7000 has s-video, but I am surprised to hear it has anamorphic/squeezed (I believe those are essentially the same thing?) because when I did go look at the spec sheet, it does NOT list that capability: spec sheet for CM-7000. Nor does the 20 page user manual have any mention of this capability.

puddnhead,
As you discovered, the CM-7000 manual is practically worthless. Here are the real details:

When viewing an HDTV (16:9 720p/1080i) broadcast, the CM offers four Picture Shapes (via the Wide button on the remote):
FULL = Squeezed mode - For TV's that support anamorphic widescreen
ZOOM1 = Uniformly zoomed to fill 4:3 screen - left/right edges of picture cut off
ZOOM2 = Like Zoom1, but even more zoomed - useful when 4:3 programs are broadcast pillar-boxed at 720p/1080i
LETTER BOX = Adds black bars to top/bottom - no picture cut off When viewing an SDTV (4:3 480i) broadcast, the CM offers no Picture Shape options - the picture fills the whole screen. If you push the Wide button, the CM displays "Picture Shape NOT AVAILABLE"

In other words, anamorphic widescreen is supported using the Full picture shape, but you need to manually toggle your TV back to 4:3 aspect ratio if you switch to an SDTV channel (the CM does not add pillar boxes for anamorphic TVs).

Hope that helps.
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post #956 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whodart View Post

Hi cia_viewer. Thanks, but I guess I missed that in all my searching. It sounds like it does what I am asking about, and I assume you don't lose what you got on auto-scan? Or do you just EZAdd all the stations you can pick up? Regards

Dave E

That is my understanding. I have 2 coupons, but no CECB, yet. Most scans would clear out the list then rebuild it, so, EZAdd or how ever they describe it should allow adding one channel at a time.
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post #957 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

holl_ands,

Thanks for breaking the news on all these new models. Wow, this is getting as complex as toothpaste. So the best is yet to come. Which models are you waiting for?

I am eager to perform on-air comparison tests for several Smart Antennas
vs indoor and outdoor antennas, similar to those I did earlier with DTA-5000.
[My suburban location is in a "hole" with lots of multipath.]
[I also have a plan to "hack" the DTA-5000 to add external antennas.]

I'll look at performance between converter boxes, but since these boxes
ALL meet A/74 requirements, it won't be easy to uncover differences without
setting up some extreme on-air test scenarios, such as near transmitters.
[I plan to do "something"....even if I run off my car's DC/AC Inverter.]

Between myself and adult kidz, "we" intend to buy at least four boxes
and then draw straws wrt which is "best" to use w & w/o Smart Antenna.
I have 2 coupons now....and will wait to order more....
I intend to buy a mix of chip types, incl. single vs double conversion tuners.

So far, I haven't bought any....because I have yet to see what I want:
Defect Free, Smart Antenna, S-Video, EZ-ADD, Signal LEVEL (not just Quality).

I have until end of May to buy the first pair...although I hope they extend it....
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post #958 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

Denca DAC-100 & TBX1005A were added to latest CECB List.
Upgraded RCA DTA-800B1 model now has PASS THRU:
https://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm
Googling doesn't reveal any additional information for these boxes....

========================
FCC's EAS Search for HID devices (Part 15 Emission Test) revealed
updated Zenith/Insignia clones (not yet on CECB List):
https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/...ericSearch.cfm

Zenith DTT901 with PASS THRU provided by new TDVG-H151F Tuner.
Insignia NS-DXA1-APT (APT...get it? with Analog Pass Thru) & same tuner.

Both are listed as Service Number LSX300-4PM (found on circuit board).
"Transfer Switch" isolation test appears to be for the PASS THRU switch.

=========================
Daewoo DAC-200 & DAC-300 models were resubmitted after mods
to control unintended emissions with ferrite cores and (ugly) internal
shielding plates supplementing the plastic. [Not yet on CECB list.]

Since the Test Report also included a Transfer Switch isolation test, I would
conclude the Thomson DTT76850 tuner is capable of providing PASS THRU.

Hence Channel Master CM-7000 with Thomson DTT76850 tuner
should support PASS THRU as well.....[DJ99 claims it does NOT...????]

Some other people should recheck the CM-7000 for Pass-Thru.....
Maybe it works on some models....or it's somehow disabled????

=========================
So I went back and reviewed earlier Test Reports.....

Coship N9900T & CASTi CAX-01 included a Transfer Switch test....
hence they have PASS THRU. Both use LG TDVG-H052F tuner.

==========================
NONE of the above boxes is found on the current (3/3/08)
"Digital-to-Analog Converter Boxes (DTAs) Qualified Product List":
http://www.energystar.gov/ia/product..._prod_list.xls
Maybe they'll be on the next update.....

RCA DTA800B1*

This box is now listed on the NTIA website as being new and having Analog passthrough. It is new to the RCA line up.

https://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm

I called RCA and after 1 hour on hold and being transfered 5 times. I was told the number that handles the calls KNOWS nothing. They had no info on new box or where to buy it or who to call to get that info. Seems to me VERY POOR CUSTOMER service. imo

Does anyone know the following?

1) When will this box be available?

2) Where will this box be available?

3) How much will it be?

Since there are 7 low power stations in the area and we will loose these stations. We want analog passthru.

We only have RF connectors and no RCA/AV So no by passing.
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post #959 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 02:48 PM
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I've been focusing on the minor points, remote control buttons. I really like having audio, cc, aspect, signal, and freeze buttons. I'd like one step up from now/next. Microprose has signal level, way too small, but it's a number plus the bar. I like the concept of the audio signal with Zenith/Insignia.

"Smart Antenna plus S-Video" limits the field drastically. The CM reviews haven't been inspiring, I don't know if it's (Thomson) tuner or not. MaxMedia will be a wait and see, since I'm not sure about Thomson.

I'll be watching the SA news, but have pretty much decided to let the technology mature. I want S-Vid, but it's a rare feature, and seems to be tied to Thomson.

Prices are moving up, I hope that means they are preparing for a sale right before the next models come out. What a short life cycle.
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post #960 of 1867 Old 04-02-2008, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cia_viewer View Post

That is my understanding. I have 2 coupons, but no CECB, yet. Most scans would clear out the list then rebuild it, so, EZAdd or how ever they describe it should allow adding one channel at a time.

On the Zenith DTT900, "EZ Add" scans all RF channels not currently known to have signals to see if there are any to add.  It's good if you have to use various antenna positions and there's no single position that pulls all channels in, and a complete fresh scan, no matter what you do, would miss some or miss others. The "Manual Tuning" function can be used to add a single additional channel that you select, plus its subchannels if it has any.
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