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post #91 of 116 Old 05-26-2009, 10:43 PM
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I just purchased a Samsung BD-P3600 blu-ray player, and it's updated with the most recent firmware available. Its performance handling the seamless branching effects shots on the Star Trek season 1 blu-ray set is just terrible.

While viewing the version with the new enhanced effects, virtually every time an effects shot appears the player skips back to a point earlier in the episode, generally anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes. On those rare occasions where the new shot doesn't trigger a rewind there is still a discernable hiccup in sound and video as the player struggles to figure out what to do. (Interestingly, the disks seem to play better when viewing the episodes without the enhaced effects --- although still not perfectly). All in all it makes for an extrememly frustrating viewing experience.

I love the Samsung 3600 in most other respects, but this issue may force me to return the unit to the store in favor of some other brand. I want a player that can do everything that a cutting-edge blu-ray disk can offer.... anyone have a suggestion?

Has anyone spoken to Samsung about this issue and found out if they can fix this problem? Or if they are even aware of it?
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post #92 of 116 Old 05-27-2009, 07:38 AM
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Echo,

The Panasonic players are solid. In fact, Costco.com has the BDP-60 for $229 right now ($50 instant rebate). Another option would be the Oppo BDP-83, but it's $500.

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post #93 of 116 Old 05-28-2009, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

That's the only way to do it (Unfortunately). I've lamented that fact in every BD player review I've written. Why can't there be a button on the remote to change the setting?

Got it to work correctly finally. I wish the Okudas and others had put in more pop-ups and such. They seem somewhat thin in number to my taste.

By the way are you saying that ALL BD players have this failing? I was really hoping that it wouldn't affect all and that some manufacturers got it arranged so you could do it on the fly while the disc is running. That is a real shame if true.

I was planning to upgrade to Oppo's player(s?) later this year or early next. Something of a let down at least in this respect.
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post #94 of 116 Old 05-28-2009, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazcdc54 View Post

Got it to work correctly finally. I wish the Okudas and others had put in more pop-ups and such. They seem somewhat thin in number to my taste.

By the way are you saying that ALL BD players have this failing? I was really hoping that it wouldn't affect all and that some manufacturers got it arranged so you could do it on the fly while the disc is running. That is a real shame if true.

I was planning to upgrade to Oppo's player(s?) later this year or early next. Something of a let down at least in this respect.

All that I have used thus far (and it's been a lot of them).

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post #95 of 116 Old 05-29-2009, 02:40 PM
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I have a Panasonic BD-50 and there's no way I can figure out to get the Starfleet Access audio to play.
Cycling around the 4 audio tracks doesn't help, nor does anything else I've found.

Has anyone found solution to this on this player.
Oh and there are no new firmware updates available.

David
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post #96 of 116 Old 05-29-2009, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwinograd View Post

I have a Panasonic BD-50 and there's no way I can figure out to get the Starfleet Access audio to play.
Cycling around the 4 audio tracks doesn't help, nor does anything else I've found.

Has anyone found solution to this on this player.
Oh and there are no new firmware updates available.

David

Look back a few posts, to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16515194

Stopping play, going into setup, and enabling Secondary Audio is the only way to do it - and that appears to apply to all makes and models of BD players!

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post #97 of 116 Old 05-30-2009, 11:58 PM
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I'm 38. I could never see this show before. Sometimes I've been curious about it but never enough. After all your reviews, I made up my mind and got the stuff from amazon. And, mark my words, I can't understand how I've been able to live without this show. As a matter of fact I think I can't be sitting around waiting for season 2 and 3 in BD. I will get them on DVD and as read above, if there is a chance to get the BD stuff at the end of the year, I will get the BD too.
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post #98 of 116 Old 05-31-2009, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwinograd View Post

I have a Panasonic BD-50 and there's no way I can figure out to get the Starfleet Access audio to play.
Cycling around the 4 audio tracks doesn't help, nor does anything else I've found. [IMG]http://www.******************/data/img/3816/s09v0317fvxp/00.gif[/IMG]

Has anyone found solution to this on this player.
Oh and there are no new firmware updates available.

David

i have the same issue as well, if anyone has some input it would be greatly appreciated
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post #99 of 116 Old 06-03-2009, 05:20 PM
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"Stopping play, going into setup, and enabling Secondary Audio is the only way to do it - and that appears to apply to all makes and models of BD players!"


Unfortunately there is no secondary audio setting on the BD-50.

David
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post #100 of 116 Old 06-03-2009, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwinograd View Post

"Stopping play, going into setup, and enabling Secondary Audio is the only way to do it - and that appears to apply to all makes and models of BD players!"


Unfortunately there is no secondary audio setting on the BD-50.

David

Yes there is, it's just named something else.

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post #101 of 116 Old 06-03-2009, 06:11 PM
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David.

Can you tell me what it is?
I checked every part of the audio setup options and couldn't come across it.

David
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post #102 of 116 Old 06-03-2009, 08:24 PM
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It is called secondary audio on the BD50. It even has a dedicated button on the remote to toggle it off and on (see pages 10 and 16 of the manual). However, for that button to work, the Digital Audio Preset section of setup must be set to allow it to work (see pages 17 and 27 of the manual).

There are two different ways to set it that will allow secondary audio to be heard. You can use the preset called "Secondary Audio," which enables secondary audio while converting the primary audio to 5.1 PCM and knocking the sampling rate down from 96kHz to 48kHz (CD quality instead of SACD quality - what you lose is "spaciousness" - the feeling of being there instead of listening to a recording).

The other preset that allows secondary audio is called "Custom": you would choose custom, and within that you would enable secondary audio and choose whether to send the resulting combination of the two as 48kHz 5.1 PCM (the same setting as the "Secondary Audio" preset), or to bitstream the combo as standard (lossy) Dolby Digital 5.1 (which degrades the sound to DVD quality).

While the manual sort of implies that this only affects the old-style coax and optical digital audio outputs, it does the same thing to the HDMI digital output and degrades the multichannel analog output as well. My suspicion is that the multichannel analog output is decoded from whatever is being sent to the digital outputs - so if those are being sent lossy Dolby Digital, that's what's decoded and sent out the multichannel analog jacks.

The analog output could theoretically have been made immune to this, but that would have required independent sets of audio circuits for that path instead of just one set.

Unfortunately, enabling Secondary Audio in the Digital Audio Preset section of setup degrades the primary audio even when secondary audio is not active - and even when there isn't any secondary audio at all.

The worst sounding output is if you set Custom to secondary audio on and to bitstream the audio as lossy Dolby Digital. The only time when that setting might be attractive would be to preserve 5.1 surround on a pre-HDMI receiver connected via coax or optical which can't handle more than 2 channels of PCM - but you'll get far better sound from most such receivers using the multichannel analog outputs. (That's my setup.) Most older surround receivers have multichannel analog inputs, for compatibility with SACD and DVD-A players, and that's the way to connect in that situation - with six RCA cables.

That's the Hobson's choice. If you want the best sound when playing disks without the extra features, use the "Quality" preset. On those occasions that you want to hear the secondary audio, you would go into setup before you start the disk, choose the "Secondary Audio" preset, and then put it back to "Quality" when you're done.

It's inconvenient, but apparently the same inconvenience applies to every Blu-ray player on the market that can play the lossless formats. (See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16515194 several posts back.)

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post #103 of 116 Old 06-03-2009, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

It is called secondary audio. It even has a dedicated button on the remote to toggle it off and on (see pages 10 and 16 of the manual). However, for that button to work, the Digital Audio Preset section of setup must be set to allow it to work (see pages 17 and 27 of the manual).

There are two different ways to set it that will allow secondary audio to be heard. You can use the preset called "Secondary Audio," which enables secondary audio while converting the primary audio to 5.1 PCM. The other preset that allows secondary audio is called "Custom": you would choose custom, and within that you would enable secondary audio and choose whether to bitstream standard (lossy) Dolby Digital 5.1 or to send 5.1 PCM (the same settings as the "Secondary Audio" preset).

Howeve, there's a downside to enabling secondary audio in the Digital Audio Preset section of setup: it degrades the primary audio even when the secondary audio is not active. The degradation of sound quality applies to the analog outputs as well as the digital ones.

You might think this doesn't matter to you if you're using the analog outputs but (1) you still have to enable secondary audio this way and (2) the worst sounding output is if you set Custom to secondary audio on and to bitstream the audio as lossy Dolby Digital.

That's the Hobson's choice. If you want the best sound when watching films without the extra features, use the "Quality" preset. On those occasions that you want to hear the secondary audio, you would go into setup before you start the disk, choose the "Secondary Audio" preset, and then put it back to "Quality" when you're done.

It's inconvenient, but apparently the same inconvenience applies to every Blu-ray player on the market that can play the lossless formats. (See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16515194 several posts back.)

Phil,

Great post and well said. I haven't had a BD50 in my system for nearly a year (I reviewed one last year for Ultimate AV Magazine), so my memory was a bit fuzzy on how to get the secondary audio to turn on. Thanks!

David Vaughn

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post #104 of 116 Old 06-14-2009, 11:11 AM
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On a PS3 how do you toggle back and forth during an episode for enhancement, or do you have to pick one episode enhanced or not?

It does not seem as if I can toggle back and forth, unless I pick it at the start of the show.

Thanks

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post #105 of 116 Old 06-24-2009, 05:20 PM
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I share Ralph's enthusiasm over this elegantly presented set. I watched Star Trek in the '60s and always admired it but still fell far short of ever becoming a real Trekkie. Watching these beautiful BDs, however, may make me a Trekkie yet. I have thus far seen only the first four episodes but the quality of the writing was outstanding and the look and sound of the episodes was good beyond belief.

My only warning to those new to this wonderful show would be to be sure to take into consideration the relatively primitive special effects, sets, and props used in virtually every '60s show. For example, the "phaser weapons" look like stuff that Toys-R-Us wouldn't sell. Much of that is overcome, though, by the beautiful transfer of these old films to BD and an incredibly successful remix of the old mono soundtracks into 7.1 DTS-HD MA. This was an extremey well made series and we are well served by its presentation on these BDs. Highly, highly recommended!
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post #106 of 116 Old 07-12-2009, 02:52 PM
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Imo, I'd probably say that looking out for ST: TNG on Blu-ray may probably be even more worth it.

TNG on BluRay will be a long wait. The effects would have to be redone as they will originally composited in video and not film.

It is quite sobering to see how many posters have never seen this series before.

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post #107 of 116 Old 07-12-2009, 05:07 PM
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The ironic thing is that older shows that were shot on film will make the jump to high definition while more recent TV shows that were shot on standard definition video may stranded in standard definition forever.

Shows shot on video were less expensive to produce (as well as quicker, since scenes could be reviewed and re-shot immediately without having to wait for film processing) and actually looked better at the time than older films, since showing a film on TV required a special film projector/TV camera (referred to as a "film chain") that made it vulnerable to bad focus and the film chain's lens quality, broken sprocket holes, dirty or torn film, etc. - while playing a videotape was much more foolproof.

Only in the past decade (or less) did high definition tv production equipment come into common use, pioneered by George Lucas in the Star Wars prequels. (Lucas arranged for side-by-side showings of one of the prequels on one screen for an audience of Hollywood professionals: one from a film projector and one from a digital projector. The audience overwhemingly voted in favor of the quality of the image that exhibited classic film artifacts like sprocket slippage - which was actually the digital image that he'd added those artifacts to in order to fake out the viewers!)

I don't know exactly when film fell out of favor for TV production, but it was quite a while ago - and for shows made during the many years of standard definition video production, true high definition release may never happen.

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post #108 of 116 Old 07-12-2009, 05:11 PM
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Of course, you do have some ST franchises that were shot in high-def like Enterprise, since HDnet was airing those reruns. I'd consider that would probably see a seamless transition to Blu, albeit that it may be only in 720p/1080i, since 1080p didn't exist when UPN was still around.

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post #109 of 116 Old 07-12-2009, 05:28 PM
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I have no problem with 1080i disks - on my setup, which consists of a Panasonic DMP-BD50 1080p Blu-ray player feeding a Panasonic PT-AE2000 1080p projector, 1080i concert disks look as good or better than films scanned in at 1080p - and I'm projecting things 9 1/2 feet wide and sitting at about that distance from the screen!

If you doubt this, get a copy of the Legends of Jazz Showcase - the highlights disk from the PBS series Legends of Jazz. Its picture is gorgeous, as are the lossless TrueHD soundtrack and the performances themselves, which are exciting. (But hurry, since it's already out of print!) It's the disk I put on to show off my system - which should give you some idea of how good it is.

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post #110 of 116 Old 07-17-2009, 08:07 PM
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Ok, I got this box set and I've been loving it. The image quality is variable, but that's due to the show's low budget. On one episode there were a few instances of dirt on the film, but it generally looks brand new. (I've only watched about two disks worth so far, and it's a seven disk set.) According to the documentary on the first disk about the making of this set, they used tools like Photoshop to sharpen and improve the contrast, and fix scratches and other defects on the old footage to make it look new - and to a very great extent they succeeded. I've done restoration of old photographs in Photoshop, so I know what they went through to make it look this good. Fixing scratches and other blemishes required working on it frame by frame.

Color rendition is perfect. When it's sharp - which is most of the time - it is as good as any Blue-ray movie based on a film master. The show's style called for soft focus on faces of women, unless the shot also included a male lead. Exterior "beauty shots" of the Enterprise are sometimes soft due to the old optical printing technique used to combine images, except in the updated effects shots. The CGI version of the original TV Starship Enterprise is beautiful, with detailed hull plating that makes it look real.

The main effects that were updated were outer space images, either full-frame or on the bridge viewscreen, and more-realistic looking painted backgrounds (often outside windows). Effects that involve actors and real sets have been left alone, so hand-phaser bolts and transporter beam-outs and materializations look (and sound) the same as always. (However, according to the documentary, the shots in The Naked Time where Scotty used a hand phaser to cut through a bulkhead was actually missing a visible phaser beam - a mistake due to the pressures of producing a show a weak - so they supplied one.)

The story I've heard is that when Leonard Nimoy heard that they were updating the special effects, he called it a sacrilege, so they brought him in and showed him what they had done. He was delighted! (And so am I.) To use a familiar phrase here, the show has never looked this good before.

I first saw these episodes in syndication in the mid 1970s during the long diaspora between the show's cancellation and the release of the first film, so for me this is a case of revisiting old friends. (I use the word "diaspora" advisedly, since Gene Roddenberry, William Shatner, and Leonard Nimoy were all Jewish.)

Here's my BD50 compatibility report (more on the episodes in this set after this):

Yes, Starfleet Access does work, if you've enabled Secondary Audio as I explained a few posts back (at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16582333). Given the ancient soundtrack for most of an episode, there's no real loss of quality in doing so.

That's not to say there's been no updating of the soundtrack - for example, in Miri (one of my favorites), when Spock is leading a pair of Security officers down an alley towards the camera, looking for the reclusive Onlies (the wild children), the offscreen jeer of "Nya Nya, Nya Nya Nya" that precedes the things thrown at them from the rooftops comes from the right rear of the listening room.

Season One contains many of the show's best episodes, including:

The Naked Time, which had Spock's soliloquy in an empty briefing room as he tried to fight off his own descent into madness,

The Enemy Within, with the very scary scene in which the "Id Kirk" tries to rape Yeoman Rand in her quarters - which communicates better than any lecture the violent nature of rape - and Spock's diagnosis of the situation to the "Superego Kirk," concluding with the sentence "If I sound unfeeling, Captain, please understand - it's the way I am."

Balance of Terror, with Mark Lenard (who was later cast as Spock's father) on the viewscreen as the Romulan Captain, telling Kirk "You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend" right before he destroys his own ship.

Dagger of the Mind, involving what looks suspiciously like electro-shock therapy in a mental institution.

The Conscience of The King
, a very Shakespearean episode.

The Galileo Seven,
in which Spock saves the day by reasoning that what is called for is an irrational act of desperation.

Court Martial
, in which Kirk is defended by Samuel T. Cogley, a cantankerous lawyer who, when Kirk enters his quarters and, finding it full of lawbooks, asks, "Couldn't you just use the computer?" tells Kirk "The law is in books!" (The implication being that online legal reporters can too easily be doctored. Talk about Trek being ahead of its time - online legal research didn't even exist back then!)

The Menagerie
, the two-parter that was built using most of the original pilot for the series that had been rejected as "too cerebral" - "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" Indeed.

Space Seed,
starring Ricardo Montalban as Khan, which became the back-story for one of the best-loved Trek films, The Wrath of Khan. "But Chekhov wasn't even in the crew yet!" "Shhh!"

The Devil in the Dark
, hard-core classic sci-fi, a first-contact with an alien race - the Horta - that turns enmity to friendship and includes one of the earliest - and definitely the most poetic - of the Vulcan mind-melds: "Go, out into the passage. Enter the Vault of Tomorrow. Mourn for the murdered thousands. The thing you seek for is there." (dialog approximate.) Plus, of course, Doc McCoy's "I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer" turning into "Jim, I'm beginning to think I could cure a rainy day!"

and, of course, the highly-controversial The City on the Edge of Forever - beautiful and thought-provoking even in the version that was made out of Harlan Ellison's even more thought-provoking original script that had a villainous character being punished for all eternity for his one good deed (to read Ellison's script, which won a sci-fi award on its own, and about his side of the controversy between Ellison and Roddenberry, see Ellison's book of the same title - and the marvelous set of comments about the book at Amazon). This is the episode that ends with Kirk saying, "Let's get the hell out of here."

As good as the other series were - and I liked them all - only this one will ever be referred to simply as Trek.

As to the toggling between the old and new effects shots:

A) The BD50's remote does not have an Angle button, which is the fast and easy way to toggle.

B) Fortunately, however, the discs' programmers provided an alternative way to toggle between the two versions:

1) Tap the remote's POP-UP MENU button (above the arrow buttons)

2) When the menu interface appears, use the left arrow button to get to the left side of the control area, and the up arrow button to get to the top row of icons. This will light up a silhouette of a movie camera.

3) While the camera icon is lit up, press the OK button on the remote. That will toggle to the other version of the effects shot once you exit by pressing the POP-UP MENU button again.

4) If you want to confirm which version is selected, move right again to bring up the right-hand area, which will highlight the version of the episode you'll see - Enhanced or Original.

NOTE: Don't press OK here - that will restart the episode!

5) Once you exit the POP-UP MENU by tapping the key of the same name, you'll see the other version.

6) Unfortunately, you can't do this while playback is paused - it has to be running!

I haven't had any problems doing this. It's annoyingly slow to deal with, but it works. Once you've satisfied yourself that the new effects really are better, you won't bother with the toggle except to show it to friends who haven't seen this set before.

Haven't tested out the BD-Live functions because my player is in my basement theater and I haven't yet bought a WiFi print-server (with ethernet jacks) to connect the player to my home network, since I don't trust automatic firmware updates anyway. I suppose that if anything is going to make me hook the player into my network, it will be Trek ("The android at the bar said you can show me my ship, the Enterprise - and no bloody B, C, or D!" - Scotty, in his guest shot on TNG) - which was the reason I bought my first color TV 35 years ago!

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post #111 of 116 Old 07-19-2009, 04:00 AM
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The unfortunate thing is, on the PS3, when you switch between modes, it winds up having to start the episode from the very beginning again, instead of just playing it from where you left off from the other mode. Didn't expect that to happen... Of course, I don't see any angle button on the PS3 Blu Remote, either, unless you can program one into those colored buttons on it.

EDIT: Oops, take that back...there IS an Angle button, it's on the upper left, didn't see it at first, but never gave it any thought to use it.

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post #112 of 116 Old 07-19-2009, 05:26 AM
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The episode restarts only if you hit OK (or Enter if it's called that on your remote) while in the right-hand panel. That was the point of my Note at the end of paragraph 4.

If you simply highlight the camera icon on the left-hand panel's top row, hit OK/Enter, and then tap the Pop-Up Menu button (or whatever it's called on your remote), you should see the disk switch versions in place, without restarting.

I assume that you found that your Angle button doesn't restart the episode but switches in place? I envy you that button, which boils down all those time-consuming steps into a single keypress!

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post #113 of 116 Old 07-19-2009, 08:35 AM
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I have this on HDDVD and I can't see buying it again on BD. It is gorgeous on HDDVD. I will be getting season II and III when it comes out. I look foward to The Cage.

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post #114 of 116 Old 08-17-2009, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by echotrooper View Post

I just purchased a Samsung BD-P3600 blu-ray player, and it's updated with the most recent firmware available. Its performance handling the seamless branching effects shots on the Star Trek season 1 blu-ray set is just terrible.

While viewing the version with the new enhanced effects, virtually every time an effects shot appears the player skips back to a point earlier in the episode, generally anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes. On those rare occasions where the new shot doesn't trigger a rewind there is still a discernable hiccup in sound and video as the player struggles to figure out what to do. (Interestingly, the disks seem to play better when viewing the episodes without the enhaced effects --- although still not perfectly). All in all it makes for an extrememly frustrating viewing experience.

I love the Samsung 3600 in most other respects, but this issue may force me to return the unit to the store in favor of some other brand. I want a player that can do everything that a cutting-edge blu-ray disk can offer.... anyone have a suggestion?

Has anyone spoken to Samsung about this issue and found out if they can fix this problem? Or if they are even aware of it?

I have the exact same player and the exact same problem. I am trying to chase this up with samsung, directly.
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post #115 of 116 Old 08-19-2009, 01:05 AM
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I'm 38. I could never see this show before. Sometimes I've been curious about it but never enough. After all your reviews, I made up my mind and got the stuff from amazon. And, mark my words, I can't understand how I've been able to live without this show. As a matter of fact I think I can't be sitting around waiting for season 2 and 3 in BD. I will get them on DVD and as read above, if there is a chance to get the BD stuff at the end of the year, I will get the BD too.

I can't wait to get them all on Blu Ray too, but if you are hooked and just wanted to see season 2 and 3 now to tide you over, CBS has them all on youtube I believe. They're free to watch and enjoy in the least and when you got the Blur Ray sets later you can re-live them. ^_^
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post #116 of 116 Old 12-13-2009, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by scottjua View Post

I can't wait to get them all on Blu Ray too, but if you are hooked and just wanted to see season 2 and 3 now to tide you over, CBS has them all on youtube I believe. They're free to watch and enjoy in the least and when you got the Blur Ray sets later you can re-live them. ^_^

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